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Penguin Warrior

Teach me how to vHearne

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Hey guys. I'm getting back into Hunters and I was wondering if any of you had advise on how to use this guy. I saw him show up at Worlds and tried him in my first game back. Just like when I ran him before, he is potentially my least favorite model in the game. I see how he could work on paper: 2 influence model who runs over rough terrain super fast in order to knock things down and set up for Skatha, Seenah, Jaecar, etc. But every single game, he fails to hit that second column when I need him to. Doesn't matter what defense and armor he's rolling against.

I want to like him because I want to be able to run 2 models with reach without going down to 10 influence. But he just never seems to accomplish anything besides handing out Last Light, which is incredibly situational.

To me, he just feels like a model who doesn't quite accomplish what he's meant to. Is he just an influence battery who can flex into a set up beater in the right scenario? Does he have a niche role that I haven't figured out? Anybody out there have any significant success with him? Help me solve this puzzle if you can :D

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27 minutes ago, ForestRambo said:

I would like to give useful advice, but after trying him 10+ games recently I'd rather just take oHearne, or Seenah. 

See, that's just about where I am right now. I'm so close to trying the 10 influence build to see if it works. I'm hoping someone can talk me down and convince me not to just suffer for 90 minutes because vHearne has a point that I just haven't seen yet. I'd like to think there's a reason for this guy, but he seems kind of like a worse version of Kraken, who's already pretty niche himself.

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Just returning myself (passing through really). For what it is worth, I have a couple of videos on YouTube showing how I have used him, another one going up soon. 

He plays centre midfield, sits there being chunky and not a greedy inf hog, locking things down with his reach, threatening the KD. Occasionally he will throw a spear if dice spike. He has a decent kick to pass the ball out of the scrum if he gets it and will happily be a snowball pass target. He waits for the chance to be a surprise striker and get an eclipse goal on the day of st never. I have never used last light effectively because that seems to take a little skill.

Vhearne is the backbone of the skatha team imo

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I typically take him whenever I use Seenah because they are a very effective team in my opinion. Typical line up is Theron, Fahad, vHearne, Seenah, Jaecar, and Minx. Since Minx, Fahad, and vHearne don’t need much influence to impact the game I usually have enough to fuel Theron, Jaecar, and Seenah. vHearne can snare and knock down targets for Seenah to clean up typically with only 1 influence. There is at least one activation in between so there is a weak spot there, but when you can get that off it’s usually pretty bad for your opponent. With a momentous tackle on 2 successes and reach he is also one of the best goal threats in the list as well. I typically don’t go looking for him to score goals, but he can help keep your opponent honest. His counter attacks are typically pretty scary against scoring teams as well.

Before oHearne’s errata I felt like vHearne was an auto include since he was a 2 influence player with reach. Now that oHearne can make up for his 1 influence I’ve used vHearne a lot less. 

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On 2017. 12. 07. at 2:44 PM, Mo11usq said:

I have never used last light effectively because that seems to take a little skill.

Last light is an elaborate buff for 2 inf character plays (flurry or most likely boom box), but there are also 1 inf character plays worth buying for momentum. In those cases, last light is way easier to use than blessing, because it's the same cost, only you are allowed to find the momentum you need any time later. Not mentioning that Skatha (the #1 host for vHearne) usually don't even have players with 2 inf character plays, so last light has more room there.

IMO the worst thing about last light is that vHearne can't really apply it on himself, and this is because of his playbook. While oHearne can reliably go hit-singled out-blessing-skewered for a single influence, vHearne needs at least 2 inf (2 attacks) to play the same trick, and even then, there's fat chance to succeed. For 3 inf (charge+second attack) the odds are way better, but then you pay 2 extra inf to get 2 momentum to swap for 2 inf, which is silly.

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He just feels so unsatisfying to use imo. 

He doesn't generate super consistent and useful momentum like oHearne. Often times he mKDs, but then often doesn't reach m3, so keeps pushing people around. 

And Last Light drains 2 momentum if he wants to use on himself, which oftentimes gets a little bit clunky. 

When he intends to use Lunar Eclipse he usually needs to make do with non momentous damage, and the 3 inf cap make any real interesting goal runs harder, if they declare a counter. 

Sure he brings 2 inf, good mT and good mKD.

But 3/1s always needs a little babysitting and he just keeps falling a little short of what I am wanting him to do and in the momentum race. 

And oHearne just runs so smoothly now. And is super consistent in output and momentum, even without a forest. 

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19 hours ago, Shrinkydinkman said:

I really, really want to like vHearne. He was the first hunter's model that I painted in my winter-camo scheme.

 

That being said my white primed oHearne just does so much more on the pitch.

Isn't that just extreme winter Camo on oHerne?

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I just posted in another thread but basically VHearne and OHearne are support pieces.  What you get out of them will depend on the rest of your list.  If you want to get the maximum use out of VHearne my go to list would be:

Theron
Fahad
Chaska
VHearne
Seenah
Egret

Theron is going to ranged snare Seenah and VHearne are going to catch incoming players.  Chaska is going to push those players off VHearne and Seenah to minimize gang ups.  Vhearne is going to be LL chaska, KD and skewering. Fahad gets in charge damage and disengages to repeat.  Egret keeps a wide birth from the enemy team with swiftstrikes/back to the shadows.  Your looking to get the ball onto chaska, make a wide pass to Egret and have her run up for a goal, this means she needs to be hovering around 12" away from chaska and 14" from the goal.  Eventually through multiple KDs, pushing people off of you your oppoennt will burn all their momentum just standing up and reengaging, use your momentum (remember to sunstrike chaska on a quad box turn or sunstrike Theron on the other turns) to keep your front line of Hearne and Seenah healthy.  If your opponent moves to threaten Egret pull them back into your engagement with Pinned.  If your opponent moves 2+ models to threaten Egret swap from repelling your opponent to going for straight damage you will win a 4v5.  Remember that Theron and Chaska actually put out good melee damage (though chaska's is nonmomentous :( ).  

As I see it hunter's are defensive by design, not in armor or def but in our plays and traits (excessive snares, lots of disengaging and with the above build lots of pushes and KDs).  Don't try to beat these teams at their game, keep them at bay, keep yourself healthy, wear them out and always threaten a goal.

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6 hours ago, Sitaavanu said:

I just posted in another thread but basically VHearne and OHearne are support pieces.  What you get out of them will depend on the rest of your list.

Correct me but you're saying the only reason to bring vHearne is to try and give Chaska a fourth boom box attack? Because the rest of your game plan (and it is a good game plan) also applies to oHearne, only he is more efficient in his support role. To me, the question is if a fourth boom box attack is worth the loss of all the goodies oHearne provides the whole team with (even if I field Chaska), like momentum farming or more efficient melee support. E.g. how is the KD of vHearne reliable? It is not reliable at all vs models that need to be knocked down.

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7 hours ago, angyi said:

all the goodies oHearne provides the whole team with (even if I field Chaska), like momentum farming or more efficient melee support. E.g. how is the KD of vHearne reliable? It is not reliable at all vs models that need to be knocked down

Ohearne brings no goodies to the provided list,

noone in this list cares about singled out,

you don't have the influence to spare to just swing to gain momentum

quad box is a threat your opponent can't ignore and must  play around, and if they don't punish them for it until they do

nonmonemtous KD on a 3 from ohearne is not reliable on a tac 5 model, momentous KD on 2 is reliable on vhearne at tac 5.  If your thinking that ohearne is more reliable with SO for a KD thats 2 influence for  KD vs 1, and both sets of results generate 1 momentum, for the second influence on Vhearne I can get a double push to disengage and generate a 2nd momentum netting me the result 2 mom instead of 1, a KD model that is 2 inches out of engagement vs a KD model that can stand up and still be engaged/engaging so doens't force my opponent to burn momentum to get in contact with me. 

Oheanre and Vhearne both have momentous double push on a 3 for disengage, and Vhearne has nonmentous push on a 1

the entire premise of everything i said was to stay disengaged and push enemies off of your team with Seenah and Vhearne while Theron and specifically Chaska put in damage, Oheane doesn't do this.  His playbook is objectively worse for disengaging, keeping your team safe via KD or pushes and he doesn't provided an additional playbook threat.

Bluntly Avarisse does a better job at every reason that you'd take Vhearne in the above list than Ohearne brings (aside from the loss of reach).

I'm genuinely confused in what you think oHearne brings to this list. 

with 11 influence
2 on egret (so she can flurry/disengage or threate a goal every turn)
4 on chaska (damage)
1-2 on Hearnefor KDs and pushes as needed (3 if you've got the oppertunity to charge (take the skewer and follow it up with a KD)
0-2  on Seenah, only give him 0 if you can disengage him with Hearne/Chaska so he gets the free charge, otherwise give him momentum to make sure his activation isn't wasted.
1+ on Theron to sunstrike chaska and shoot at whatever is needed.
going down to 10 influence means that either Hearne/Seenah or Theron will have 0 influence and unable to do their jobs

you should generate ~6 momentum a turn 3 from chaska, 2 from hearne and 1 from seenah.  You will spend 3 from Heroic + LL.  As I said earlier spend yoru momentum to keep front liners healthy  so plan to go second, but it shouldn't matter since they are going to be burning up momentum just standing up and walking back in.  This also means you'll have an extra momentum from going second.  with these 3/4 bonus momentum you should be able to have hearne and seenah self heal and chaska/theron/fahad come on mate one of them for 12 regeneration a turn.

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4 hours ago, Sitaavanu said:

nonmonemtous KD on a 3 from ohearne is not reliable on a tac 5 model, momentous KD on 2 is reliable on vhearne at tac 5.  If your thinking that ohearne is more reliable with SO for a KD thats 2 influence for  KD vs 1, and both sets of results generate 1 momentum, for the second influence on Vhearne I can get a double push to disengage and generate a 2nd momentum netting me the result 2 mom instead of 1, a KD model that is 2 inches out of engagement vs a KD model that can stand up and still be engaged/engaging so doens't force my opponent to burn momentum to get in contact with me.

Thanks, the whole thing you wrote makes sense now, and I can say that I really like this game plan of staying disengaged. Only I can't get your math of the KD. vHearne has 50% chance to knock down your average 4/1 opponent which I don't call reliable. (He has ~80% vs 4/0 and 3/1 models, that's not exactly reliable either, but very good chance indeed.) If it's really important to KD someone, then you charge, or allocate 2 inf anyways to up your odds with 2 attacks. oHearne also has 50% (-ish) chance to succeed on the hit-singledout-skewered-hit-KD chain, but he can get partial achievements more likely, so it's not necessarily a feast/famine kind of activation. Or you can, of course, charge with him too, that's something like 3/4 chance to get the KD result even with his less suitable playbook.

By "goodies" I meant the ability to prepare targets for Seenah and post-errata Theron, who can cause real damage in melee now. Also, even 13 inf lists don't necessarily have the influence to just swing to gain momentum. It's a tool that you occasionally use if momentum generation becomes a priority for some reason.

All in all, thank you for the detailed explanation. I played a fistful of games with vHearne w/o notable success, but now I surely will try and give him another chance to prove its usefulness, taking your feedback into account. And +1 influence never hurts anyways :) One more question if you don't mind: for Skatha, how would you modify the setup in question? Do you even field Chaska and/or vHearne with her?

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I often use the Blessing -> Skewered before oHearne takes his first attack, as to more reliably threaten KD a lot of times. It is not exactly the same with a KD on 2 vs a KD on 3 on a snared target, but kinda in the same ballpark. So even there I feel the difference is not that high. 

Anyways, you seem quite determined on your 6 and how to place your inf, and following your inf logic I get your point and argument. But that doesn't necessarily make it true for me, which of course is totally fine - there is no one true way to go about it. If it works for you, do it :)

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I think one of Guildballs greatest strengths is that people can really find a six / team that fits their playstyle, sometimes some players / play style may not work for someone else and may totally click for another. Personally I think oHearne just out values vHearne but it's great to see other plays have success with him, he's such a great model. 

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Now I think I'm in the minority in not using Chaska a lot. I actually think he's a really cool niche model because of his Brewer style playbook that gives him access to a KD and high damage potential and he has some interesting support abilities. However, I struggle to fit him in since he's a 3/1 normally with only a 1" melee without any extra native defensive tech. So I don't run him a lot.

However, I think Chaska is probably a bit better with oHearne. Slap Singled Out on someone and suddenly Chaska has more access to his KD and wrapping, more so than any other play in the squad. This isn't something I've had a chance to test since I don't run Chaska in my usual 10 and I'm more of a Skatha player so I don't tend to run oHearne despite preferring him, but I at least like the concept.

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1 hour ago, Penguin Warrior said:

Now I think I'm in the minority in not using Chaska a lot. I actually think he's a really cool niche model because of his Brewer style playbook that gives him access to a KD and high damage potential and he has some interesting support abilities. However, I struggle to fit him in since he's a 3/1 normally with only a 1" melee without any extra native defensive tech. So I don't run him a lot.

However, I think Chaska is probably a bit better with oHearne. Slap Singled Out on someone and suddenly Chaska has more access to his KD and wrapping, more so than any other play in the squad. This isn't something I've had a chance to test since I don't run Chaska in my usual 10 and I'm more of a Skatha player so I don't tend to run oHearne despite preferring him, but I at least like the concept.

Chaska isn't currently even in my 10, so I don't think you're in that small of a minority. That said I may him look to swap him in over Egret as I think his trap can be hugely helpful into Thresher but that still needs a healthy bit of testing. 

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6 minutes ago, ForestRambo said:

Chaska isn't currently even in my 10, so I don't think you're in that small of a minority. That said I may him look to swap him in over Egret as I think his trap can be hugely helpful into Thresher but that still needs a healthy bit of testing. 

Interesting. I have to test Egret more, but I like the idea of her floating on the flank, threatening a goal. If she drags a beater over to deal with her, it's just going to free up other players. Ultimately, I always favor goal-scoring over fighting and support :)

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@angyi your absolutely correct in your statement that 50/50 isn't great odds and oHearne w SO has better odds but it also demands more influence while bringing less influence to the table.  I try to keep a chaska trap infront of my Hearne/Seenah screen, or get a snare with Theron before using these guys to drop their defense down hopefully to the 3/1 range (89%).  

As for Skatha, I really haven't figured her out well enough that I feel confident giving advice on a 'go to list'.  My gut tells me that because BoTSF is more efficient momentum usage than LL and SO can boost charges for T< results that oHearne is the better choice with her.  I don't know if Chaska truely has a spot on her team, the thing about Chaska (as I play him) is you have to force your opponent to respect the 16 box potential.  If you just fire off pot shots for the sake of using boombox he isn't worth it.  If your oppoennt over extends and makes themselves vulnerable and you don't punish them for it you've wasted his spot on the roster.  Think of him as similiar to Silence from the morticians, opponents that are activation dependent (such as tooling up a beater) have to respect that Silence (even with low odds) could completely destroy their turn order.  But if you don't make good on that threat your opponent knows they can ignore him.  Without the 16 box potential, and given how Skatha's legendary works I think Jaecar would be my influence dump of choice.  So my gut tells me (though again I have not found consistent success with Skatha) that I'd run something like:
Skatha - because this is the captian requested
Fahad/Snow - Fahad has a more consistent place but snow is really good into the right match ups
OHearne - for the reasons listed above, though his speed is going to be an issue
Jaecar - list above
Egret/Ulfr - to bring another good kick stat/goal threat (I'm not a fan of Ulfr design wise but I don't really think Egret is very good in this situation either ... we just don't really have another option
6th - I have no idea/maybe this is a match up dependent spot I think Hemlock vs killy teams, minx/seenah seem alright here but not special, Zarola adds speed and ranged snares which are appealing but I have a hard time looking past her playbook, Chaska could fit here but I'd have to break out of my normal patterns/routines with him and I haven't been able to do that.

That said I have seen vHearne run with her successfully but outside of his bonus mobility from flipping through a group of cold snapped dudes I haven't really felt there was any synergy.

@Warpstoned & @ForestRambo This list was designed to make the maximum use out of Vhearne, every part of his playbook, character plays and character traits have a function/use in this capacity.  If your not running a list similar in design to this vhearne probably doesn't have a role to play in your line up.  The thread topic of Teach me to vHearne I've probably gone in a really round about way to say if your finding that oHearne is better for you than vHearne you are probably not playing a list that vHearne fits into.  If you want to play vHearne you will most likely need to change up 2-3 other models in your list and possibly your play style to fit him in.  But as Forest points out thats one of the things I love most about this game is that somehow without a points system or anything else other than a rough concept of a 'team' (a captian a mascot and 4 other dudes) this game is well balanced and even within a given team you can find very distinct and diverse playstyles.

Chaska can def work with oHearne, he puts out a surprising amount of (nonmomentous) damage in CC with SO etc.  I find him too squishy to be in this role consistently but its a great maneuver to pull vs an off guard opponent.  I advocate VHearne specifically for the quad box threat which (provided KD, and snared are applied) is the most reliable 16 damage activation available to hunters.  Yes I know it's not great odds and no where near guaranteed etc etc it's just as close as the build can manage right now.  If you take away Theron than oHearne jumps up in value as BotSF is a more efficient way to get damage out of chaska than LL.  

@Penguin Warrior Chaska is not end all be all, in my experience most hunters don't touch him.  The go to line up for most players seem to go Jaecar>oHearne>Fahad (snow situational alternate)>captian of choice (usually Theron) then fill to taste.  Normally the filler means Minx and a situational pick.  Chaska will never be a situational pick, he requires too much investment by the rest of the team to make good use out of to just slot into another list.

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Quick follow up, the ability to walk up, boom box, than snowball back to safety could leave an enemy model 12 inches (and snared) from the closest friendly model, functionally removing them from the game if they are a beater/striker.  I don't know if this practical or not but you could try
Skatha, mascot, oHearne, Chaska, Minx, Ulfr/Egret if you wanted to give a Skatha/Chaska line up a go.

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1 hour ago, Sitaavanu said:

My gut tells me that because BoTSF is more efficient momentum usage than LL

Which is not necessarily true, given that you easily end up with a Skatha list that lacks any 2 inf character plays worth the effort. Skatha can manage her single 2 inf shot, then mascots, Jaecar, Ulfr, Seenah or Minx don't have any. And I'm not sure you always want to commit the slower version of Hearne to baby sit models like Egret or Hemlocke. So BotSF only would be more useful on Chaska, but w/o the option of the quad box (or Hearne himself of course). And for all the 1 inf character plays LL is much easier to use.

I was trying hard to fit Chaska in Skatha lists myself, but somehow I don't seem to succeed, not really. I'd be glad to hear success stories because I'm going to run out of ideas :)

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16 hours ago, MARCVS AVRELLIVS said:

To be fair, Blessing of the Sunfather is useful on oHearne himself for the 'Skewer'.

That's usually how I use it. Theron and oHearne do some serious heavy lifting with "8" and "5" influence activations respectively.

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