Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • Mako

      Tales of Infamy   12/13/2017

      Looking for more Guild Ball content? Just in the last week we've had new episodes of Singled Out, Double Dodge, Strictly the Worst and Don't Touch the Beard, as well as blogs from ForestRambo and MidwestWargaming! Check out Tales of Infamy in the Guild Ball section
Sign in to follow this  
kegslayer13

what I truly feel Brewers need

Recommended Posts

With World's over and a good amount of time until the next big event I figured it was time to voice what I think we need as Brewers to pose a real challenge next year. As with some of the other popular posts popping up like "make brewers better," I too think we need some adjustments. Looking at our models and players I think we as a community struggle to pin down what exactly we need. We have goal threats, ball holders, and beaters. We have some really bad matchups in popular captains that skew us a little. But any of us that have played against a wide range of guild know how surprisingly strong we can be. I personally feel that there are just 3 players on the whole team I think need to be looked at, and I personally would be fine if SFG just handled two.

First up is Stave, a fan favorite for what he could be, but widely (and rightly) panned. Stave does not need much for him to fall in line. Like other slow moving and powerful pieces, he needs a downside and at 2+/0  that's more than covered. I don't even need that changed, I honestly think he's fine if we just give him Gluttonous Mass. I know, glut mass and tough hide, are you crazy? Here's the thing, No ones killing him anyway. 95% of the abuse he takes is not damage related. Its momentum farming and super dodging. Most other pieces like Stave incur some sort of resource sink like fear or glut mass and windle's hale & hearty mitigates momentum generation to a degree. All this would do is cost the opponent one influence for one attack first to then trigger the momentum train that is a 2+/0 model with 1" melee.

 

Second is Vet Spigot. he's the only one that probably needs a total rework. he not only needs to be the best striker in the game but also needs to help the team more to even have a chance of being worth it. his downside is he is named Spigot and the first one is just too good and too important.  How is he one of the best there ever was without some sweet early dodges? Okay so the Brewers crowd doesn't appreciate them and they aren't momentous, cool fine. But he's got a lot of room to grow.  Also, how is he not "Motivated (Friday)?" Take Match Fit away and give him that.  Also bump his jog up to 6" to represent him being sober. Also just give him poised. You could probably give him wing back too and Tapper would still never ever take him cause Spigot1 is so legit. All I know is I don't want to live in a world where the stupid church gets the good version of striker Spigot. Really hope he gets his chance to shine in Brewers. 

 

Finally and most importantly is Esters. I have adamantly fought against her being played in the past and the truth is it's just because I want her to be better. I know there are a group of Brewers who think she's great and you can win with her and that's not the point. She has a cool concept and can definitely win games but she completely lacks synergy with the team.  Almost all Brewers have a heroic and to use them we need momentum. Her ranged plays supply no momentum. Her ranged play can cause fire but unfortunately only 1 Brewer really cares about that. Most of them are looking for KD. So by using her plays you don't gain momentum and you apply the wrong condition. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with fire but I can get that from stoker and he doesn't take up my Captain spot. we need more from a Captain. 

First I she needs Momentous Inspiration. She is already inspiring with songs, she should be able generate momentum for hitting people with barrels, and encourage a generally cagey list even more. (also clearly defining her from Tapper). This helps Friday, Stoker, and possibly Stave to help contribute to the momentum pool with their plays.  You have lots of options to generate momentum for True Grit or Times Called on a finishing piece. More synergy and helping the team. I would gladly trade Glut Mass for Momentous Inspiration and maybe like 2-4 more health boxes. 

Second her heroic needs to be "Use Empowered Voice again this turn" I will gladly sacrifice her legendary to be able to use two songs every turn as opposed to 3 in one turn.  Her Legendary could then be a clear conditions and light heal in a pulse. Giving us some of her old flavor while not being able to do it forever and ever. Also getting everyone to rise and feel reinvigorated seems like a pretty cool visual for a once per game action.  

Now that she helps the team I can see her as having a different game then Tapper and we would have two strong options to drop into different matchups.  The key is making her different from Tapper. It makes for a strong combo on the field, it fits with their story where they want to do everything different from each other, and I think it lets us do a lot of new things without changing many other models. 

Thanks for chewing through all of this. Please let me know if I'm going to far or not far enough. Share things you'd like to see.  This was mostly about just sharing some of my hopes and dreams for our beloved Brewers. Not a demand for SFG to make my toys better. Thanks again!

 

TLDR: Brewers are under performing. Please Fix Stave, Esters, and vetSpigot. I give some examples how maybe that would be possible...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree with Stave doesn't need much. 

Veteran Spigot does need a bit of a rework. Times called is the big loss. Swap out the current heroic (which is nice but not game changing)  for that and he's a great player. 

Esters is amazing. Doesn't need changed at all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Clanger said:

Esters is amazing. Doesn't need changed at all. 

I can not see what your talking about at all...at the most recent big event, US steamcon we only had 5 layers playing brewers in the last chance qualifier. Tapper went 12 and 6 wile Esters went 7 and 5. only one brewers player for US nationals who lost round one with Tapper and dropped. Zero guild participation in worlds. doesn't something need to get better? you think its Tapper? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with some of what you're saying.  Most of it, really. I don't want gluttonous mass though on Stave, I want Sturdy.  

I'd take Spigot2 exactly the way he is if he wasn't Spigot.  I think his rules are fine but you're killing the rest of the team by taking Spigot1 out of the lineup.  Does that mean Spigot1 is too good? I doubt it, Brewers aren't doing good.  Sure, he's a staple, but if you nerf him to make Spigot2 tempting, the only thing that gets tempting is shelving the Brewers.  I've actually played a lot of Spigot2.  I played him S2 with Esters, Quaff, Rage... Harry? I think Harry.  And Hooper.  It was a really inf efficient team with some ranged damage and then Hooper or Rage murdered things or Rage tooled up Ester ranged plays.  Spigot2 could score from a pretty solid distance away on 0 INF as long as he had the ball, momentum and the voice from Esters.  It was a fun list and I did pretty well with it.  The Union change hurt it a lot though.

I do hate Esters.  For all the reasons you said and then some.  I don't trust her to do the job in melee.  She doesn't accomplish enough for me at ranged.  We don't have the players that can go unbuffed into a situation and do what they need to do.  

Tapper frustrates me too.  I love Farmers because Thresher plays like I envisioned Tapper would, and even a bit like Tapper used to with Ol' Jakes.  Now though, Tapper struggles to get the job done himself.  I don't know what needs to be fixed on him.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tapper could be fixed with something simple as being able to Old Jake's on himself. It'd also be nice if he got something else on his 5th column, either Mom4 or 3+CA. I've always said that vSpigot's biggest issue is his name. If he wasn't called Spigot, he'd be in the team most of the time. I've yet to use Lucky yet, but I'm hoping he'll fill that role.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, I've been thinking about this and while there will always be a debate for "Gluttonous Mass" / "Sturdy" / "Stoic" on Stave, I have been wondering if he could be vastly improved by exchanging "Ramming Speed" for "Battering Ram".. This would allow Stave to shunt a couple of team mates forward as an early activation and would greatly improve his usefulness to the team.. 

Esters is generally fine although I am a fan of giving her "Momentous Inspiration", I just don't know if this will tread on Ballista and Smokes toes..

Regarding Spigot, I think the only way to get around the issue of his name would be to reduce the toolbox nature of oSpigs (which I do not want) or make vSpigs so broke you feel you are missing out by not using him.. The problem is that his card is already full of great rules so it's hard to make space for anything new, I'd love  see "Football Legend" added to the affects of his heroic though..

The rest of the team are largely balanced but as Tapper has also been mentioned,  I understand why people want the ability to "Jakes" himself back..  I do however think it is more balanced and characterful as it is now, I am curious as to what TAC 7 would do to him though.. I do think the puppy may need something to make him a more viable compared to the cat, but off the top of my head, I can't think what that would be..

While I understand people view us as one of the weaker guilds, I still think Brewers are one of the most fun to use on the field.. Also we do have three new players due "soon" and I can't wait to see what Decimate (and hopefully Amber) can do.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well Tappers my guy so I definitely would not be upset about him gaining anything but I can not see that happening.  though CA and some damage even if it was only 2 on the 5 column would be amazing... 

 

1 hour ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

I don't want gluttonous mass though on Stave, I want Sturdy.  

isn't sturdy just worse then glut mass? I mean I guess I would take it as anything helps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Redmaw said:

So, I've been thinking about this and while there will always be a debate for "Gluttonous Mass" / "Sturdy" / "Stoic" on Stave, I have been wondering if he could be vastly improved by exchanging "Ramming Speed" for "Battering Ram".. This would allow Stave to shunt a couple of team mates forward as an early activation and would greatly improve his usefulness to the team.. 

good point that may help a little. certainly gives him some more flexibility in his usefulness which I like

 

5 minutes ago, Redmaw said:

Esters is generally fine although I am a fan of giving her "Momentous Inspiration", I just don't know if this will tread on Ballista and Smokes toes..

"generally fine" is just not good enough... I get you don't want to hand good abilities out so there not unique anymore but something has to give right? I mean she try's to play a similar game as them she's just not as good at it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, kegslayer13 said:

well Tappers my guy so I definitely would not be upset about him gaining anything but I can not see that happening.  though CA and some damage even if it was only 2 on the 5 column would be amazing... 

 

isn't sturdy just worse then glut mass? I mean I guess I would take it as anything helps.

GM can be popped by anything.  I can take that one random INF on someone with a ranged play and hit her with it.  Marked Target or some nonsense.  Then it's gone.  I prefer Close Control or Sturdy so much more than GM.  I get waaaay more mileage out of stopping specifically the first Knockdown or first Tackle then just the first attack in general.  Sturdy would be better for Stave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/6/2017 at 6:30 PM, kegslayer13 said:

I can not see what your talking about at all...at the most recent big event, US steamcon we only had 5 layers playing brewers in the last chance qualifier. Tapper went 12 and 6 wile Esters went 7 and 5. only one brewers player for US nationals who lost round one with Tapper and dropped. Zero guild participation in worlds. doesn't something need to get better? you think its Tapper? 

There were several guilds not represented at Worlds so hardly a good indicator. 

US nationals is just one tournament. Looking at Longshanks Brewers seem to have a pretty average play rate so it may be an anomaly that they were poorly represented. Looking at the players scores given for the LCQ,  both win/loss rates are slightly positive for both captains that doesn't really reflect the need for a change. In fact Hunters also had a low selection rate at LCQ then went on to do very well. Individual metas and the fickle nature of players probably have a greater impact that actual team strength.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Brewers being in the starter box has a small negative impact in the overall stats. Masons are also below the 50% mark but are perceived as one of the best guilds.

I do agree that Stave and Vet. Spigot (potentially even the Dog) need looked at as their selection rate appears to be poor. Esters doesn't need "fixing" I think the captains review by the last round of nerfs/boosts agreed with that. She is extremely formidable in capable hands. I find her a much better captain than Tapper as she provides buffs and a less straightforward threat. She is certainly not in the category of superstar captain but she was never intended to be, without a doubt she is a stellar support piece for the rest of the team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Redmaw said:

So, I've been thinking about this and while there will always be a debate for "Gluttonous Mass" / "Sturdy" / "Stoic" on Stave, I have been wondering if he could be vastly improved by exchanging "Ramming Speed" for "Battering Ram".. This would allow Stave to shunt a couple of team mates forward as an early activation and would greatly improve his usefulness to the team.. 

This is a plan I like. It even almost justifies his 1/3 inf cause its like he's getting the play for free.  And it adds some extra speed to the rest of your team in exchange for how slow he is.  I think i'd still like him to get Glut Mass/Sturdy, but this is one of the more clever ways I've heard to improve him.  

 

As far as vetSpigot, I dont think anyone wants regular Spigot to change, and I don't think Keg wants that either.  There is room in his design space to just make him better because he has to directly compete with ogSpigot.  I think adding some more reliable movement to his card, normal poised, and a bit of a playbook rework might get him to see play.  

With models like vetSpigot i think the goal is for them to just be a reasonable pick for those of us that want to be a bit of a special snowflake.  He's not bad right now, and I don't want him to be better than the first version, but I'd like him to be better than he is.  

 

And then Esters. Oh Esters. You mystical creature. Are you an amazing dark horse captain under appreciated by most? Are you an actual turd destroying the otherwise decent and hardworking Brewers coaches lives?

.....

Its much closer to the second one. Esters is one of the worst Captain in the game*.  I've explained a bunch of times why I don't like her and despite the preceding sentence I'm not looking to start a flame war.  I do want to know though, for the coaches who like Esters, why are you opposing people's efforts to get her improved?

I'm not being obnoxious I'm honestly curious why people who like Esters wouldn't want her to be a little bit better.  Especially with Keg's suggested changes, which mostly are about switching her Legendary and her Heroic. It's not like he's suggesting to rework her drastically.  Plus, people seem to be playing her as this support piece, so why turn your nose up at Momentous Inspiration? 

I guess I was just hoping to see some more of the thought process behind why Glut Mass is so important on her card.  Or for someone to explain which matchups an every turn condition clear is mandatory for the health of the guild.

And then my last question would be, if Ester's is perfect, what other players would you like to see to improve other parts of her team? 

 

*Thanks Brisket3!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Clanger said:

There were several guilds not represented at Worlds so hardly a good indicator. 

US nationals is just one tournament. Looking at Longshanks Brewers seem to have a pretty average play rate so it may be an anomaly that they were poorly represented. Looking at the players scores given for the LCQ,  both win/loss rates are slightly positive for both captains that doesn't really reflect the need for a change. In fact Hunters also had a low selection rate at LCQ then went on to do very well. Individual metas and the fickle nature of players probably have a greater impact that actual team strength.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Brewers being in the starter box has a small negative impact in the overall stats. Masons are also below the 50% mark but are perceived as one of the best guilds.

I do agree that Stave and Vet. Spigot (potentially even the Dog) need looked at as their selection rate appears to be poor. Esters doesn't need "fixing" I think the captains review by the last round of nerfs/boosts agreed with that. She is extremely formidable in capable hands. I find her a much better captain than Tapper as she provides buffs and a less straightforward threat. She is certainly not in the category of superstar captain but she was never intended to be, without a doubt she is a stellar support piece for the rest of the team.

I just don't see the reasoning to be on here saying she's perfect. do you think what I would like to see changed on her makes her worse? she can be your favorite  and as I had said before obviously people can win with her but like you even state "She is certainly not in the category of superstar captain" so what can a bump up hurt? 

I agree metas are all different which is kind of why worlds is not a terrible indicator as no one from any of the 8 qualifiers took brewers. also if we look at PAX Philadelphia which was a couple weeks before steamcon US, no brewers showed up. steamcon UK had a real bad showing for your cause as tapper went 3 and 0 wile Esters went 2 and 5. I'm covering a lot of miles here and by no means are these three places metas the same but brewers don't seem to be doing so hot at any of them. 

masons are at 49.8% which is as close to perfect as possible and still 7 whole percentage points higher then brewers who now have the lowest win rate of any guild.

the last round of nurfs/ boosts saw very little actual boosts. 80% was a straight nurf and what I suppose could be considered a boost was extremely minor tweaks for the most part, quality of life change for Theron as he should have been light footed the whole time.  they do that on purpose because if they were to make drastic swings up they have a much higher potential of breaking something and needing to do it all over again sooner then they would like. its easier to bring things down to a baseline.

Stave Vet spigot and sure the dog might need something but that is not going to be enough to change a whole lot. its captains that make the most difference and if you don't think its Esters then lets buff Tapper which I am all for as he is my favorite and nothing would make me happier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Stave got Battering Ram on the back of his card, I'd consider him.  Sturdy and Battering Ram and I'd take him.  It still might not be enough but I'd definitely try.  Even more importantly, a non-heroic based 2'' speed buff would help me consider Spigot2 over Spigot1.  Maybe.  Battering Ram would be great though.  Heck, I might even kick off with Tapper some more, get him some actual kickoff threat.

Speaking of Tapper, you know what would help him? Outside of Ol' Jakes coming back true? Marked Target.  If Marked Target was 10'' instead of 8'', I'd use it.  Right now it's super corner case and does not accomplish anything for him except Guildballing it to get Stoker or somebody in, maaaaybe.  As far as Ol' Jakes goes, I wish he could gain an INF and allocate one.  Ideally Gain one, allocate two, but I'm happy to meet in the middle somewhere.  I understand that the concept of the model is somewhat important.

It's not that the Brewers don't have strong options.  Spigot1, Stoker, PintPot and Friday would all be auto-includes in almost any other guild, even with 1'' melee.  Heck, even Spigot2 would be great in some other guilds.  I'd love to have him in Farmers, Union, Morts, any team that's not exclusively kickers like Fish and Engineers and kind of Alchs.  We just don't have a captain that can put it together.  I don't feel like they have a plan.  1-4, 2-2?  They have the kickers to put 2-3 goals on the board but it's almost impossible to keep the ball against any team and I'm not even talking about Blacksmiths yet.  No one but Spigot2 has close control.  Mash is the only one with 2'' unpredictable movement, so that's something at least but any ranged play whatsoever, or a 2'' melee model (Mist, Vitriol, now Alloy) doesn't care too much.  So they struggle to hide the ball and kill faster than almost any other team scores.  It's just an uphill battle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 09/12/2017 at 5:43 AM, Jedianakinsolo said:

If Marked Target was 10'' instead of 8'', I'd use it.

To me, "Good Marker" is the second best plot for brewers (after Sic'Em). It can really surprise an opponent who places a player 10 " away from Tapper or 8" and half with a rough ground or a fire AoE beetween them.

 

Aranud

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/6/2017 at 10:13 AM, kegslayer13 said:

she needs momentous Inspiration. 

It is super weird she doesn't have it given her flavor, which was mentioned somewhere on these forums recently. I find it especially weird since the SF store page for the Sing When You're Winning box says: "On the pitch Esters is an avatar of inspiration driving her teammates to astonishing feats of bravery as they shrug off injuries that would bring another player low". To me, that sounds like Momentous Inspiration, but wtf do I know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

Listening to the Strictly the Worst podcast.  Even Pat's down on the Brewers and moving on.  That's a rough place to be in.

ya he sure is. I hope he lends some knowledge before he departs.  I would be interested to get a player brake down from him although he seems to just does not even want to talk about them.  I guess its time to find a new king...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess someone has to.  I love their playstyle, but the Farmers have a very similar playstyle, with better synergy and better Captains. 

I'm in the middle of a batrep, Brewers vs. Blacksmiths, and I remembered some Tapper thoughts I had awhile back.

I wish CA was either momentous, or a column down or both.  Hitting Commanding Aura on column four can be pretty challenging, and that's really his big schtick.  He's not much of a one rounder captain anymore, but he also struggles to be the support his team needs him to be.  It's not uncommon for me to blow 5 attacks trying to get CA and only ever get 5 pushes out of it, and is one the main reasons I put his Guild back on the shelf.  Tapper only comes out now as a proxy for Thresher, who plays like what I imagined Tapper did. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right, what we have to do is start making you guys feel good about yourselves. So, the first thing to do is start lying when putting in your tournament results,  then we'll start heading up the rankings and look better.

This is the six I usually take: Tapper, Scum, Friday, Spigot, Mash and Hooper. My usual tactic is to sprint Tapper 8 inches just to get a bit of extra range. Dont do it every time, just in case anyone notices. Tooling the cat up for +2 damage is fair, and quite funny.

You guys have got loads of options, you just need to get creative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×