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ForestRambo

Hunters Matchups, when to draft which captain.

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Hi guys, I'd just thought I'd get a discussion on how the team is currently drafting in events. The current 10 I use is Theron, Skatha, Fahad, Chaska, Jaecar, oHearne, Ulfr, Zarola, vHearne and Minx. 

Here's my current thoughts on what Captain I would drop into what team using the current blind draft system 

Alchemists - Theron. Alchemists are not overly killy, both Mercury and Calculus are 14 health players to eat up. oKat is easily managed with pinned and a forest and Theron + oHearne can threaten both captains. 

Blacksmiths - Theron. Theron loves to eat the low health apprentices, the low DEF is ideal for his character plays and the Back to the Shadows is fantastic for pulling the team apart. 

Brewers - Theron. Low DEF means people can be controlled well, pinned is really good for controlling tappers movements and players like Spigot, Friday & Pintpot are food for the team. 

Butchers - Skatha. Theron can't outfight the Butchers (I am going to assume they play Filet here, or they're mad) and Skatha has the speed to get goals and get take outs with Jaecar & Minx. 

Engineers - Theron. Not overly killy, Ratchet and Velocity aren't too hard to kill, bonus time Pinned / ATK on key goal scorers and slow the team down. 

Farmers - Sort of undecided here, as they have the ability to hide the ball and make it tough to score. At the same time the're fighty enough to scare Theron off, though Pinned & Gut * string in combination do good to work to keep Thresher down. Tentatively saying Theron, but need a few more games into them. I played into Thresher twice last weekend, lost one 12-9 as Theron missed a character play to generate momentum for a tap in, then got murdered for the loss and the other was 12-8 loss in which I made a mistake or two. 

Fisherman - Theron. You will always see Corsair, probably the toughest matchup on the whole list. Last game I played theron into Corsair I very nearly won, so I feel with extreme match up practice I can make this a 50/50, but it's so tough. 

Hunters (Mirror) - Coin Flip. I think Skatha is good into Theron as her 5/0 somewhat protects her from Theron's pewpew and she projects further threats then Theron. 

Masons - Theron. Theron does well into hammer, Pinned + Forest is again not ideal, Theron does well into Honour due to the low DEF. 

Morticians - Theron. Being able to threaten Obulus at range totally throws his game off whack. Does well enough into Scalpel. 

Union - Skatha. Totally think we see vRage everytime across the board and no manner of control will save you from the rage train. Skatha can score the goals fast enough and pick off fleshy parts (typically decimate, gutter and / or hemlocke) 

Thoughts? I'm pretty happy with the above and excited to play more events now. Theron, Fahad, Jaecar, oHearne, Minx are my go to. I normally flex in Chaska or Zarola as I see fit. Chaska just does really well into lots of low DEF and Zarola is great for the other spaces, and not bad as a ball holder into the typical higher DEF teams as UM is nothing to scoff at. 

Skatha normally looking at Skatha, Fahad, Ulfr, vHearne, Jaecar & Minx. I feel like vHearne is needed for 2" reach, the KD is nice and another 3/6 kick is welcome. Skatha makes good angles with her Fast Terrain & Snowball. 

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2 minutes ago, Warpstoned said:

No fan of the bear I take it?

Otherwise I kinda agree with your assessment, and would probably put Skatha into Farmers - but that is surely a hot take without much backing it up.  

I want to love the bear, I just don't think he has enough of a damage output to warrant his 0 influence. 
 

Yeah, I totally think Skatha is better until Grange, but tough into Thresher as Jackstraw has no quarms with running off with the ball. 

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1 hour ago, ForestRambo said:

Farmers - Sort of undecided here, as they have the ability to hide the ball and make it tough to score. At the same time the're fighty enough to scare Theron off, though Pinned & Gut * string in combination do good to work to keep Thresher down. Tentatively saying Theron, but need a few more games into them. I played into Thresher twice last weekend, lost one 12-9 as Theron missed a character play to generate momentum for a tap in, then got murdered for the loss and the other was 12-8 loss in which I made a mistake or two.

Reading the UK winner who was using Union, I would suggest that this is a Skatha choice over Theron.

1 hour ago, ForestRambo said:

Morticians - Theron. Being able to threaten Obulus at range totally throws his game off whack. Does well enough into Scalpel.

I play Skatha more into Morts and do better, as the Morts football is slow. But thats me. 

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3 minutes ago, Major_Fokker said:

Reading the UK winner who was using Union, I would suggest that this is a Skatha choice over Theron.

Yeah I saw Henry's use of Trisket into Thresher. Skatha should totally work as well, I need to test it as I said. 

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Sounds about right to me! Decision is pretty straight forward - if the enemy team will outfight Theron, I go Skatha! If the enemy team plays better Football than Skatha, Theron is in.

Farmers I get where you're coming from, against Grange I would want Skatha, against Thresher, no idea!

In a mirror match, I think Skatha holds the edge though.

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Very good subject.
I have never played against Tresher. Against Grange, Skatha is very effective.

I have the feeling that Theron is not in a good position when the opponent knocks harder, is resistant and plays very tight in the middle of the field (Hammer, Tapper, Grange). I have the feeling of being able to control his progress, slow him down and weaken him, but he always manages to fall on me, even if I step back and try to get away.
I think Skatha is better under these conditions as well as against the butchers and vRage of course.
Right now, I play Skatha Fahad Jaecar Chaska Minx Zarola against this kind of opponent. It works very well :)

I also agree that Corsair is one of the toughest match up for us.
I also always have trouble against the masons.

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I think one of the most fascinating things about Guildball is while captain match ups can be agreed on, the line up between people is something that is very raely the same. It speaks well to the balance of players and how the nuances between them speak to different peoples playstyles. Ultimately the most important thing is the decisions the player makes, but the different team comps that crop up speak well of internal balance / overall balance of the game.

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11 hours ago, ForestRambo said:

Yeah I saw Henry's use of Trisket into Thresher. Skatha should totally work as well, I need to test it as I said.

To be honest, that game didn't show the real potential of Thresher, because IMO the farmer's player was managing his team poorly this time. That said, the reasoning behind fielding sBrisket (or Skatha) vs Thresher still stands, only I think that the game you mentioned hardly provides any practical evidence.

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9 hours ago, angyi said:

I think that the game you mentioned hardly provides any practical evidence

Evidence possibly not, but Henry's reasoning as to why he took Brisket is sound (he is after all one of our best players) and as he won the competition and he did use Brisket into Thresher to get the win, I felt it was worth the mention as Skatha and Brisket in this case seem like a logical match up for us hunters to try out.

Of course this can only be backed up eventually by actually trying Skatha against Farmers, rather than just opting for Theron every time.

 

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SFG did a great jorb tuning up Theron in the errata. When Skatha was first released, Theron was never going to see the light of day. Now, I actually enjoy playing Theron, and its good to see a captain who at one time was considered the worst in the game is now a strong option. 

 

That said, I still love Skatha but the ranged control game is pretty strong at the moment. I approach my captain selection a little different it seems. I find that if my opponent has a hard time killing my models, or are an easier to kill guild such as Alchs and Morts, then Skatha is not a bad choice.  You can still play Theron into this matchup, but if I can already kill two models with a normal Skatha line up the win condition is quicker to hit. If you don't like the bear then this will not work, but between Ulfr and Skatha you have two models who can score from a safe distance with Jaecar/Seenah working at taking out models. For the same reason I can see this working on Blacksmiths if you can get to their apprentice models. 

 

Having gotten my teeth kicked in with Skatha, I would recommend Theron into Farmers. Thresher and Tater are simply way too destructive and better controlled at range. Millstone is a problem, so taking her out is top priority. 

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9 hours ago, Major_Fokker said:

Evidence possibly not, but Henry's reasoning as to why he took Brisket is sound (he is after all one of our best players)

Yeah I said the reasoning was solid, just pointed out that the game itself was not one to prove it in practice. I didn't mean to pick on his way of thinking.

On topic: in my limited experience, Theron brings way too much disruption not to consider him vs brawlers, while Skatha doesn't like being in persistent danger. That said, my thumb rule ATM is fielding Theron if my opponent has 1-2 models I totally have to control, otherwise Skatha brings more fun and flexibility. Of course the best thing would be to chose captains after the first roll, but that will be a S4 thing I guess.

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After looking through my match ups, I think I will be dropping Chaska for Egret. I quite like often using the ball as a bait, to lure people in while I'm peppering at range. Egret is a ideal person to hold the ball and be the bait, while still affecting the game with flurries and be able to turn a late activation one turn into a early activation goal.

I have 5 games coming up Sunday - Wednesday. Will keep you guys informed on the progress, I also have a event on the 3rd December / 11th December so plenty of match reports to come. 

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I'm far from experienced with Hunters as I'm only about 15 games in with them. But it does seem that they have 2 really strong captains who offer a very different playstyle. So really just to echo other post's and for similar reasons I think you play Skatha into Farmers and Rambo into Fish. For me you just go full tilt on goals vs Farmers. Skatha seems interesting vs Shark but really sadpanda against Corsair. I've only played one tournament with Hunters and I got to play a very good Shark player. He eventually won the game but to be honest I snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with a bad life choice. 

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It seems as a collective we've reached a reasonable conclusion. 

Theron - Alchemists, Blacksmiths, Brewers, Morticians, Fishermen, Masons, Engineers  

Skatha - Union, Farmers, Butchers Hunters 

Really happy with that, glad to see Skatha has a valuable place in the team and it makes for a nice balanced gaming balance, not playing just Theron. 

Theron, Skatha, Fahad, oHearne, vHearne, Ergret, Jaecar, Zarola, Ulfr and Minx will be my 10. Don't feel I'm missing much in Seenah, I'd like snow but there's just no space for the double mascot and Fahad is always reliable. Chaska was tough, but with no Seenah I don't feel the pressure to play him so much and I REALLY like Egret as my ball bait player, being able to affect the game while being at extreme ranged.

With my myriad of practice games coming up and a event this weekend, I'll keep you all informed :) 

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8 minutes ago, Major_Fokker said:

Soon to have the headache of when to play VMinx.   * happy dance*

I REALLY hope our minor guild isn't released before vMinx is, losing her would suck.

That said, REALLY excited for the 2 extra players we're going to be able to use. Hunter team seems pretty wide open at the moment so they really could give us anything. 

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I actually think Skatha is better into most match ups personally because she can actually push the tempo aggressively rather than just play a denial type game. To be fair, I haven't played a lot of Theron since the errata, but when I play against him it feels as though he doesn't really have the playmakers right now to support him. Ulfr isn't a good enough goal-scoring threat and both Seenah and Jaecar, while amazing, have extremely exploitable weaknesses. So while Theron is in a good place himself, I don't think his supporting cast really enables him to play the slower control game that he wants.

instead, I like the flexibility Skatha provides. She offers really unpredictable threat ranges and win conditions with her ability to flex anywhere between 1/4 and 3/0 depending on the match up. I've also played lots of Skatha into Brewers and had plenty of success. She does well into Scum with her ability to dodge off of a Snowball pass and get around UM if they try to kill the ball while also being able to throw around Snared onto a bunched up group of players. I've had some success with her into Union, though I haven't had a chance to play the vRage matchup. With Fish and Engineers, I would worry that that they just have too many potential goal threats for Theron to control, so I would probably stick with Skatha to try and keep pace.

Ultimately, I would mostly take Theron for high armor match ups. Masons and Blacksmiths are both generally slow and have low defense, so having the character plays to get through armor and screw with their ability to chase the team down. I might also take Theron into Thresher since he's one of the only captains in the game who can effectively limit Thresher's turn one threat.

Again though, I haven't played Hunters in a while and never played Theron a ton, so take all of this with a grain of salt :)

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Interesting to hear others thoughts. Can see Skatha's value, I've played a lot of post errata Theron and I've found real value into the above match ups. I've enjoyed my games with Skatha as well, so I think it's a pretty exciting times for Hunters. 

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@ForestRambo You have to be careful with Egret. She is very fun to play but I do not count the games where she goes forward, tries a Flurry, misses her target (even snared) and finds herself within easy reach of the opponent who has only to chew.
Back to the shadow is very useful in her style of games but beware it can turn against her!

I prefer Zarola to carry the ball personally.

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