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comuniste

The despair of a castaway

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Now I’m lost, alone on my poor island, crying my overboarded companions and asking myself: is there a reason to live without Gutter?

Please, leave me at least Avarisse and Greede, or Hemlock , even Fangtooth... and the corpse of Snakeskin, can I claim it?
Greyscale is dead, are you not sated?
You already have hard nerfed Shark and both Sirens, do you really need more to satisfy your hunger?

You make a fool of Fishermen by giving better kick statistics to the Farmers and Blacksmiths, in addition to increase the mz 2 " to all the other guilds...
Even the concept of the hurdy-gurdy stunted is copy…


BUT WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY ?

What is the next step?
Do you also want the skin of Corsair? Will you sell Tentacles to japanese for sushis ???
Moreover, to a fluff point of view, don’t give rum to the Brewers or I swear that I will come in person to your office with two glasses to debate this (and be prepared….
J
)
What minor guild will be suited with Fishermen? Shell’s collectors?

We have been so much used to bend forward to be set from behind that nothing will surprise us!!!
So to conclude, please, be a little nice with us if you still want to eat fresh fish.

:)

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Well, my contention is two-fold: That the UiC event overall had an interesting narrative, but potentially problematic implications, and then their handling of it has left me displeased.

1) The interesting narrative implications are that the Union is breaking up, pick where their characters go. But the implication (and later confirmed in the keynote) was that losers get nothing. This sucks for the 'losing' teams, because everyone picked guilds where they either like the gameplay, or liked the fluff/theming. And the thing you picked and identified with getting nothing is kind of not exciting.

Solution: Each winning team gets the named character they won, the losing guilds get a new character altogether (they're pulling a bunch of minor guilds out of their hat, they can come up with 3 models, 1 each for Masons, Alchemists, and Fishermen). That way, everyone wins (and has something to look forward to).

2) Their handling of it. The fact that after a long and hard fought campaign over 6 weeks where the Fish were losing, and then winning going into SteamCon UK, the fact that it was reversed again by a small UK based subset of the Guild Ball community (those who could afford to go to Steamcon UK). This seems doubly dumb, because of the whole 'we're putting the event this year on the forums so people can keep track'. I have heard more than once that 'I'd like the time I put into UiC back'. I'm fairly sure I heard a 'git gud' in the keynote at least once, and it was too close to me to the fact that people asked 'so the losers get nothing?' five times . People like new toys, the fact that there are three of the old guilds who have no guarantees of anything new (minor guilds don't count) while the others get new toys is disheartening. It's a mini game that people play as a hobby. 'Feeling bad' (which UiC does now) is more than enough to go play something else, because you play a hobby game to have fun and enjoy yourself.

And anyone who is like 'they won't simply release fun new toys for some guilds and not others', that's an assumption, and we all know that assuming makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'. The fact that the Fish lost because of Steamcon UK I can get over eventually, but I'm having some real difficulty with the fact that I'm losing characters I like (Gutter and A&G), that I only really have the singleton Union models that Fish can use, so those are going to be useless in 6 months, and if I want to play Gutter, I need to buy Butchers (no desire to do so), and that having so recently purchased the Fish, they're releasing better looking sculpts that come with terrain, a goal, and are a lot easier to put together. Not to mention that my favorite lineup in Fish (Corsair with Gutter) now has a Gutter size hole that can't really be filled by anything currently available.

So, if you don't like any of this, the best thing you can do is stay civil (this is a hobby game after all), but not give Steamforged any more of your money (because dollars or the lack of dollars are the only thing a company is guaranteed to listen to), and send them an email or message stating why you're unhappy, and what you'd like to see.

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9 minutes ago, Lyrael said:

Well, my contention is two-fold: That the UiC event overall had an interesting narrative, but potentially problematic implications, and then their handling of it has left me displeased.

1) The interesting narrative implications are that the Union is breaking up, pick where their characters go. But the implication (and later confirmed in the keynote) was that losers get nothing. This sucks for the 'losing' teams, because everyone picked guilds where they either like the gameplay, or liked the fluff/theming. And the thing you picked and identified with getting nothing is kind of not exciting.

Solution: Each winning team gets the named character they won, the losing guilds get a new character altogether (they're pulling a bunch of minor guilds out of their hat, they can come up with 3 models, 1 each for Masons, Alchemists, and Fishermen). That way, everyone wins (and has something to look forward to).

2) Their handling of it. The fact that after a long and hard fought campaign over 6 weeks where the Fish were losing, and then winning going into SteamCon UK, the fact that it was reversed again by a small UK based subset of the Guild Ball community (those who could afford to go to Steamcon UK). This seems doubly dumb, because of the whole 'we're putting the event this year on the forums so people can keep track'. I have heard more than once that 'I'd like the time I put into UiC back'. I'm fairly sure I heard a 'git gud' in the keynote at least once, and it was too close to me to the fact that people asked 'so the losers get nothing?' five times . People like new toys, the fact that there are three of the old guilds who have no guarantees of anything new (minor guilds don't count) while the others get new toys is disheartening. It's a mini game that people play as a hobby. 'Feeling bad' (which UiC does now) is more than enough to go play something else, because you play a hobby game to have fun and enjoy yourself.

And anyone who is like 'they won't simply release fun new toys for some guilds and not others', that's an assumption, and we all know that assuming makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'. The fact that the Fish lost because of Steamcon UK I can get over eventually, but I'm having some real difficulty with the fact that I'm losing characters I like (Gutter and A&G), that I only really have the singleton Union models that Fish can use, so those are going to be useless in 6 months, and if I want to play Gutter, I need to buy Butchers (no desire to do so), and that having so recently purchased the Fish, they're releasing better looking sculpts that come with terrain, a goal, and are a lot easier to put together. Not to mention that my favorite lineup in Fish (Corsair with Gutter) now has a Gutter size hole that can't really be filled by anything currently available.

So, if you don't like any of this, the best thing you can do is stay civil (this is a hobby game after all), but not give Steamforged any more of your money (because dollars or the lack of dollars are the only thing a company is guaranteed to listen to), and send them an email or message stating why you're unhappy, and what you'd like to see.

If you rage quit can I have your Avarisse and Greede, please?

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5 hours ago, Selfy said:

If you rage quit can I have your Avarisse and Greede, please?

To be clear, I'm not angry, just disappointed. But while you are getting enough new toys (and are probably trolling?), you are more than welcome to my A&G when I ragequit the game, provided that with your new toy and my old toy, you can leave us to commiserate in peace.

You win, and we're sad.

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I had expected that the losing teams would have entered a free for all for vAvarice, vGreede, or vA&G with one contest occurring to see which team would redeem themselves, and which veteran(s) would return to the pitch. 

Unfortunately that is not the case. I would say this is a cool community event, but I am new and play on Vassal, so I have not experienced the negatives of losing the Union in the same way long term players have. It would definitely feel like a let down though.

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Does this result just mean that we don't get the new Gutter, but we can still use the old one? Because she's on my Corsair list painting table. 

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2 minutes ago, Lee said:

Does this result just mean that we don't get the new Gutter, but we can still use the old one? Because she's on my Corsair list painting table. 

You can still use original Gutter in the fisherman team for the moment, including at tournaments. At some point (possibly years in the future?) the fishermen will have a minor guild released (like ratcatchers for morticians). At that point you can't use Gutter with fish in official tournaments, but can of course continue to use in casual play.

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22 hours ago, comuniste said:

Now I’m lost, alone on my poor island, crying my overboarded companions and asking myself: is there a reason to live without Gutter?

We have been so much used to bend forward to be set from behind that nothing will surprise us!!!
So to conclude, please, be a little nice with us if you still want to eat fresh fish.

:)

Fishermen follow the tides and will catch our new bounty. I'm not giving up on this and nor should the rest of us. Sail away friends!

That said, I'm so happy to see my tin in someone's avatar pic :) I've been looking online for that to give it a try since all I had was the tin.

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I highly doubt that Fishermen will never ever get a new player. The only difference is that we know which one we're getting (but are still just as blind as to what she'll be like)

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6 minutes ago, Redtiger7 said:

I highly doubt that Fishermen will never ever get a new player. The only difference is that we know which one we're getting (but are still just as blind as to what she'll be like)

From the seminar it sounds like Fish, Alchemists and Masons will not be getting any new models until their related minor guild comes out, it was expressly said that they wont be getting anything in the release of the new veteran models.

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It does feel kinda lame that it was a community event that SKUK got to influence more than anyone else. Not sure why they don't allow SCUS to also have the same opportunity. The Obulus and Minx thing was also kinda lame. The Butchers' civil war also left me disappointed with the outcome, like it felt staged.

I'm not as bummed about not getting a new model as I am with the way the event was handled.

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3 hours ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

It does feel kinda lame that it was a community event that SKUK got to influence more than anyone else. Not sure why they don't allow SCUS to also have the same opportunity. The Obulus and Minx thing was also kinda lame. The Butchers' civil war also left me disappointed with the outcome, like it felt staged.

I'm not as bummed about not getting a new model as I am with the way the event was handled.

No model mostly just irks me as I was hoping for something to add to my Fish over the next 6 months to change things up, but similar to you I'm much more annoyed at how the community event was run.

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The simple solution is go to SCUS, vote for veteran Angel during the design a veteran seminar, then fishermen can get a new toy in roughly a year.

Good! Use your aggressive feelings, fishermen. Let the Salt flow through you! 

*Insert palpatine*

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As someone who went to Steamcon and was voting for Fish every single game. By the last day Butchers had something like 200 more votes than any other guild. Where as the other teams had small differences the difference between fish and butchers was staggering. There was also a stark lack of Fish being played in the entire place.

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I was also very disappointed to see how this played out, both because I think it was a mistake to let SteamCon UK and not SteamCon US affect the UiC results (gotta do neither or both) and because the losing guilds get nothing.  It's very telling to me as well that both Fishermen and Alchemists, who got hit in the last errata, suddenly have less players showing up at SteamCon- and doubly frustrating because in spite of many people moving on from the Fish, we managed to go into the event ahead.  If your "worldwide campaign" ends up getting tipped by a tidal wave of votes at a weekend-long event only a small subset of the player base will be able to participate in (where a metric crapton of games are being played rapid-fire in comparison to what can be done at an average FLGS game night in the weeks leading up to the event), why have the pretense of making it a "worldwide" campaign?  Steamforged clearly didn't do a good job of balancing the input of players worldwide against that of the players at the event, who seem to have disproportionately affected the outcome.

It's also a bad move to have a worldwide event that takes some of your player groups and turns them into material (as well as story/thematic) losers- you've now told Masons, Fish, and Alchemists that they're going to be down a player relative to the other guilds who participated in UiC (and I guess Farmers, once Vet Honor comes out).  That's bad from a game balance perspective AND a customer satisfaction perspective, as it makes those players perceive that the company doesn't care about how they will feel or somehow isn't aware of how much it will suck when the other guilds get their shiny new toys and the losing guilds have nothing (or have to wait months and months longer, either way).

All in all, I think UiC was a great event until the very end, and then Steamforged just tripped over its own feet at the finish line.

TLDR, to make players at one event in one place on one weekend have the ability to impact the event as much as players from all over the world did over the course of four weeks was a mistake, and telling the losing guilds that they get nothing at all is a mistake, too.

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1 hour ago, Selfy said:

I'm starting to get a little worried about some of you guys. I honestly mean it. Chin up lads, all is not lost. :(

Yeah everyone. Stop moaping about just one little thing.

Look at all the good things Fish have had in the last 6 months... Umm...

We totally got the best nerfs in the last errata.

We know that the team's best competitive build is going to be replaced with something completely unknown when the minor guild drops.

 

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As worried as I am about not getting any new toys to play with beyond the minor guild, the Fish are still my favorite team to play. Yes, some of our best players got nerfed. For me, that just makes me feel better about the team in general. Shark is still an absolute beast and oSiren is still an extremely powerful presence on the pitch (yeah, vSiren seems kind of meh now, but hey, I never play Corsair anyway :D). It is a blast to zip around the table, slipping in and out of combat and knocking in goals while the other team desperately tries to figure out how to keep pace or slow the Fish down.

Ultimately, all that matters is having fun. If you enjoy the guild still, then that's the only reason you need to keep playing. If you are playing for the Union options, then it might be time to change teams until the minor guild is revealed. And if it's just a matter of the guild feeling stale, then maybe it's just a matter of playing another team for a little bit before coming back.

I'm still excited about Fish and think they're easily one of the most fun guilds in the game. Can't wait to see how the minor guild is going to impact us.

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7 minutes ago, Penguin Warrior said:

As worried as I am about not getting any new toys to play with beyond the minor guild, the Fish are still my favorite team to play. Yes, some of our best players got nerfed. For me, that just makes me feel better about the team in general. Shark is still an absolute beast and oSiren is still an extremely powerful presence on the pitch (yeah, vSiren seems kind of meh now, but hey, I never play Corsair anyway :D). It is a blast to zip around the table, slipping in and out of combat and knocking in goals while the other team desperately tries to figure out how to keep pace or slow the Fish down.

Ultimately, all that matters is having fun. If you enjoy the guild still, then that's the only reason you need to keep playing. If you are playing for the Union options, then it might be time to change teams until the minor guild is revealed. And if it's just a matter of the guild feeling stale, then maybe it's just a matter of playing another team for a little bit before coming back.

I'm still excited about Fish and think they're easily one of the most fun guilds in the game. Can't wait to see how the minor guild is going to impact us.

Fair play to you, sir!

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It strikes me there are several "damned if you do, damned if you don't" issues here that, if the alternative decision had been made, an equal (maybe) number of people will unhappy or disappointed with that decision.

If they had provided the losing guilds with an alternative model, that could have irked people who voted for the winning team - what was the point in voting at all? This gets especially worse if the new model the losing team gets ends up being better than the veteran model the winner gets. And if it's the reverse we just start this whole conversation again. So, SFG are going to disappoint or upset someone however they handle this. 

The Steamcon issue is perhaps the questionable one, but I really don't think they expected the steamcon results to make such a big difference in swinging the result. The groundswell of support for Butchers at the event was entirely beyond what anyone could have expected. By the time I'd registered my first game on the Saturday morning Butchers were already 90-odd ahead. I suspect next year there may be some weighting so that event results can't swing it as much, or restriction to how many or which games you can register at the event. They need to make steamcon a desirable event and create a buzz amongst the people playing games. The community event is a way to do that. I don't think it's bad that the SC attendees get to report games, what is perhaps unfortunate is that the swing was so big. I might have missed them, but I didn't see anyone arguing ahead of SC that it would be unfair to allow SC attendees to post results before the con.

Should they have let SCUS attendees take part too? Maybe, but then you have the situation that SCUS gets all the good stuff and SCUK gets nothing interesting. They need to sell tickets to these events, and the big reveals at the keynote is probably the biggest sell they have. If they water this down or make one SC the poorer cousin it will be to the detriment of the cons overall. I don't really have a great argument here, at least for picking some of the fights to resolve at SCUK and some at SCUS might have been a better way of spreading it. That said, if SCUS gets the new OP rules released, the new plot cards spoiled, stats for 3 or 4 new players (union vets or ratchatchers) and what 2-3 other new minor guilds will be, let alone what additional godtear spoilers there might be, we'd probably be thinking it was a good job the union vets were settled by SCUK.

Overall, it's a fine balancing act between making the cons attractive and engaging the wider community, and whether you agree with whichever side of the fence SFG came down on in each incident, its hard not to think that if they'd come down on the other side it would have upset/disappointed as many people.

Anyway, just trying to apply a bit or perspective.

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10 minutes ago, malladin.ben said:

It strikes me there are several "damned if you do, damned if you don't" issues here that, if the alternative decision had been made, an equal (maybe) number of people will unhappy or disappointed with that decision.

If they had provided the losing guilds with an alternative model, that could have irked people who voted for the winning team - what was the point in voting at all? This gets especially worse if the new model the losing team gets ends up being better than the veteran model the winner gets. And if it's the reverse we just start this whole conversation again. So, SFG are going to disappoint or upset someone however they handle this. 

The Steamcon issue is perhaps the questionable one, but I really don't think they expected the steamcon results to make such a big difference in swinging the result. The groundswell of support for Butchers at the event was entirely beyond what anyone could have expected. By the time I'd registered my first game on the Saturday morning Butchers were already 90-odd ahead. I suspect next year there may be some weighting so that event results can't swing it as much, or restriction to how many or which games you can register at the event. They need to make steamcon a desirable event and create a buzz amongst the people playing games. The community event is a way to do that. I don't think it's bad that the SC attendees get to report games, what is perhaps unfortunate is that the swing was so big. I might have missed them, but I didn't see anyone arguing ahead of SC that it would be unfair to allow SC attendees to post results before the con.

Should they have let SCUS attendees take part too? Maybe, but then you have the situation that SCUS gets all the good stuff and SCUK gets nothing interesting. They need to sell tickets to these events, and the big reveals at the keynote is probably the biggest sell they have. If they water this down or make one SC the poorer cousin it will be to the detriment of the cons overall. I don't really have a great argument here, at least for picking some of the fights to resolve at SCUK and some at SCUS might have been a better way of spreading it. That said, if SCUS gets the new OP rules released, the new plot cards spoiled, stats for 3 or 4 new players (union vets or ratchatchers) and what 2-3 other new minor guilds will be, let alone what additional godtear spoilers there might be, we'd probably be thinking it was a good job the union vets were settled by SCUK.

Overall, it's a fine balancing act between making the cons attractive and engaging the wider community, and whether you agree with whichever side of the fence SFG came down on in each incident, its hard not to think that if they'd come down on the other side it would have upset/disappointed as many people.

Anyway, just trying to apply a bit or perspective.

So, what happened at SteamCon to make everyone go Butchers? Did you all get together in the bar and decide to do it? Surely something happened? It seems a bit odd that practically everyone suddenly decided to fudge the fish over.

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18 minutes ago, Selfy said:

So, what happened at SteamCon to make everyone go Butchers? Did you all get together in the bar and decide to do it? Surely something happened? It seems a bit odd that practically everyone suddenly decided to fudge the fish over.

Nothing I'm aware of. The fish have been pretty strong in the UK meta, even since the errata, perhaps it's just a reaction to that. I only recorded one game for butchers myself on the Friday (got there late so only got one game in on Friday). By Saturday morning they were so far ahead I posted for Alchemists instead (much good that did :-( )

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28 minutes ago, Selfy said:

So, what happened at SteamCon to make everyone go Butchers? Did you all get together in the bar and decide to do it? Surely something happened? It seems a bit odd that practically everyone suddenly decided to fudge the fish over.

I sat at the game recording table for a while at SCUK (I had nothing to do with the actual recording. I just wanted a chair :D ).

I got the impression more butchers players were playing, and those that reported games that had butcher friend at the con tended to then also pick butchers. Plus an element of “we don’t want the fish to have access to gutter” that overrode faction loyalty.

No actual organised plan, just a lot of little effects that swayed things.

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Amongst the landslide of Blacksmiths and Farmers I saw quite a few Butchers teams being played and very few Fishermen at SCUK.  Not enough to represent the swing they got though.  Fish and Hunters were the teams I saw the least of tbh.

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