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So veteran "female hat" is going to Engineer guild, but what will happen to my Harry?

Will he still be playable with his current errata card rules? For how long?

In the keynote the dev said "union players will no longer be available once the matching minor guild is released" so does that mean my Harry is just a useless chunk of metal soon? What about the decimate and A&G I have too?

Is Steamforged going to refund my money for selling me non-playable models? I can't exactly sell them to a union player since Union is squashed soon too.

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From what I heard, union players are still legal in alchemists until the alchemist associated minor guild is released.  After that no one is stopping you from playing using season 3 (or earlier!) rules, but in SFG compliant events you can't play with your toys.

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Union won't be squashed. As I understood it, they will become a "normal" guild like the others. They just don't share their players anymore. I'm sad about Harry, too, but overall I like the change of Union. In S1 you couldn't play competitive without at least 2 Union models in your roster. S2 eased up a little, but Morts dominated with 3 Union models plus Obby, Dirge and Silence if I remember correctly. Now It went down to only 1 Model, but for me it still doesn't feel right. When I play alchemists, then I pick alchemists. If a key component in my Team comes from another guild, I lose the feeling of playing my own guild after all. It would have been nice to bring Harry "home", but the model was shown too late, rendering us unable to react to the sudden activity on the engineers side.

PS: I'm sad so many posts for the engineers came from one guy, who only wrote one line and added 3 pictures. That's not a match report, that's spamming -.-

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The rules of UiC dont Talk about Match Reports. ..the only reason why i dont posted our games earlier is,  that i thought i need a Match Report. ...

 

But our Alchemist's Player told me "you dont need to make one"...

Then i start Posting our games. ..

 

And sorry as you can see my english writing is so bad. .. i need hours for a Match Report in english...

But we played the games and worked all together in our club the last weeks. ..

But maybe you Talk about another guy?!

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It's pointless to complain about a decided thing ;)

Engineers won and so be it. I just hope alchemists get a model, too, even if it's later on. Not having the Hat at all after the Minor Guilds arrive would have maybe been more inspiration to the guild to post games, but it was kept a secret. So we have to deal with it. But I think SFG will do a good job balancing things out.

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I'm not complaining that engys get the hat. And I'm not pissy "rage quitting" either for the smug fan boys.

I'm just saying when was the last time you bought and played a miniature game (or board game) where a model is litterally made unusable?

Other games have things that aren't tournament legal, I get that. But to make players waste money is different.

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Harry isn't made completely unusable, he could be used in a Union team. And its the same for everyone, even Engineers. They get a new Hat, but Harry will not he playable. I have a Harry. I'll only be able to play him in Union too, you know.

I understand what you're saying and I understand that you're angry. But I feel that the anger is misplaced. There's more important things to worry about, like if you search hard enough you can find the second farmers box floating off the coast of Indonesia.

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Two things -

Harry won't be useable when the Alchemist's Minor guild is released that's true, 100%. However that time frame hasn't even been mentioned yet, so there is no immediate reason to stop using Harry.

This restriciton is only in games that are following the Organised Play Document. Really miss Harry and want to have a casual kick about with a friend? Totally legal to use Harry there.

 

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I'm not a fan of the argument that something can still be played in a casual game.  I can play vRage, Boar, oRage, Minx, Cosset, Fahad vs Jaecar, Jaecar, Jaecar, Jaecar, Jaecar, Jaecar in a casual game; I'd like to see SFG try to stop me.  The fact that oHarry can still play for Alchemists in casual play is so weak a statement as to go without saying.

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2 hours ago, ForestRambo said:

Two things -

Harry won't be useable when the Alchemist's Minor guild is released that's true, 100%. However that time frame hasn't even been mentioned yet, so there is no immediate reason to stop using Harry.

This restriciton is only in games that are following the Organised Play Document. Really miss Harry and want to have a casual kick about with a friend? Totally legal to use Harry there.

 

The time frame for the first Veteran models are Q2 2018 at best. The minor guilds are starting to come out from Adepticon I think, but we only know about Ratcatchers for morts, and except for that we know little more.

Alchemists are in a good place for now, with or without harry. I'm currently praying for Vening to get some of the changes that he has in the Rookie League, he's a monster there and I'd be happy to see him get some of those changes and just replace Harry as a control/support piece.

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9 hours ago, Quwaz said:

I'm just saying when was the last time you bought and played a miniature game (or board game) where a model is litterally made unusable?

Other games have things that aren't tournament legal, I get that. But to make players waste money is different.

I play MTG, and there it happens pretty much once every three months.

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11 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

I play MTG, and there it happens pretty much once every three months.

A card is (at retail) cheaper than a model and there are hundreds of MTG cards and dozens of GB models.

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7 hours ago, Quwaz said:

A card is (at retail) cheaper than a model and there are hundreds of MTG cards and dozens of GB models.

And several hundred different cards rotate out at once, and in order to use them competitively you often need more than one copy.

I've 'lost' significantly more value in my magic card collection from rotations and bannings from WOTC than I ever will from Union models becoming invalid in tournament. Union models are even still playable in their own team and aren't excluded completely, so it's not like there is no demand or use for the models.

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On ‎21‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 5:25 AM, Quwaz said:

I'm not complaining that engys get the hat. And I'm not pissy "rage quitting" either for the smug fan boys.

I'm just saying when was the last time you bought and played a miniature game (or board game) where a model is litterally made unusable?

Other games have things that aren't tournament legal, I get that. But to make players waste money is different.

I'm fairly sure that it happens in most games at edition change time. I have a friend with a 200 pt beastman army that was legal in 7th, and not where near legal in 8th. I can name several models that reduced in rarity when Malifaux went from 1st to 2nd ed meaning people had useless models.

Those were literally useless, your's is just of no use to you, not illegal in the game, it would still be useful to people that play union.

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On 11/20/2017 at 11:25 PM, Quwaz said:

Other games have things that aren't tournament legal, I get that. But to make players waste money is different.

SF didn't make you buy Harry the Hat. The option was out there and you took it. Now the game is changing. Stuff changes. Sell the model, buy union, or play the model wherever you want that isn't a tournament. You still got a good looking model out of the purchase. You still got to play him. Even if you never use him in Guild Ball again he makes a great RPG model.

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I wanted to weigh in on this one. I think the Engineer Harry looked better. Alchemists were ahead until SFG previewed the models.  I am sad that we don't get a new model until we are uncompetitive as a guild. I don't think that is going to happen next year. I happened to buy the Union Starter to get Decimate. I was going to start Union as my next guild, so my models won't go to waste (even played a game with the primed figures). However, I've had Hemlocke since season 2 and have never played her. 

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I don't think it's fair to say Alchemists are uncompetitive. They represented pretty well at the WTC, Midas still plays a scary fast scoring game and Smoke is as good as ever at doing her thing, in fact I would say the new 2 guilds solidify that. Midas is pretty damn good into Farmers and Smoke is a terrible match up for the Blacksmiths to see across the table. 

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On 2017. 11. 21. at 6:25 AM, Quwaz said:

I'm just saying when was the last time you bought and played a miniature game (or board game) where a model is litterally made unusable?

Quite a few times actually. Complete factions or miniature lines went down to the toilet in other games. Two things:

- Rules changes often make models more or less desirable. I, for one, haven't played Harry since the summer errata because I don't need him anymore in my builds. What's the difference? When SF took my money, no-one told me Harry would get a trashy playbook and lower TAC. Come on.

- The game is evolving and branching, and the union slots are now really restrictive in a development sense. As a gamer, I spend more on plastic glue in a month than I will sort of lose because of the new Union rules. Miniature games work like that for decades, there is a delicate balance between game development and the sustainability of the parent company. If you're looking for financial return of investment, you don't play miniature games. The question is not if you will burn your money and time (you will), the question is if the game you play lives and evolves. And it does, in this case.

I'm really sad I can't use Harry and Minx for long. Time to start to collect pure Union too :)

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6 hours ago, angyi said:

- Rules changes often make models more or less desirable. I, for one, haven't played Harry since the summer errata because I don't need him anymore in my builds. What's the difference? When SF took my money, no-one told me Harry would get a trashy playbook and lower TAC. Come on.

I think SFG are quite laudable both for how well they've balanced the game and how willing they are to continue balancing it.  There's certainly a trade of oHarry in his current form, but he is decidedly still usable in any team that can take him.  Even if it requires a different approach than it used to, that's still fundamentally different from not being able to play him at all.

6 hours ago, angyi said:

- The game is evolving and branching, and the union slots are now really restrictive in a development sense. As a gamer, I spend more on plastic glue in a month than I will sort of lose because of the new Union rules. Miniature games work like that for decades, there is a delicate balance between game development and the sustainability of the parent company. If you're looking for financial return of investment, you don't play miniature games. The question is not if you will burn your money and time (you will), the question is if the game you play lives and evolves. And it does, in this case.

I envy your miniatures budget so vast that you consume multiple bottles of glue in a single month and think nothing of your models becoming unplayable.  Personally I don't view my hobby as an investment.  It would be wildly optimistic to expect my little metal guys in increase in monetary value.  I'd be completely satisfied if they retained their value as playing pieces but if they won't I'd appreciate it if SFG extended the curiosity of writing the expiration date on the packaging like I get from my eggs and milk so it doesn't come as a shock.

The argument that the Union as mercenaries was stifling the game's development has never wrung true to me.  I find it really cool that there have been periods of time in which a Union player has served on several different teams competitively at once, serving completely different roles in each team.  That was something praiseworthy of the design that won't happen again.  Every time a new player comes out I'm going to find myself comparing it with all the eligible Union models it might have played for and for every problem combination not solvable by the word 'Guild' the argument will ring hollower and hollower.

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@MechMage Harry was an example that simple rules changes also affect the table time of each model, making staples out of bench warmers and vice versa. SF indeed makes a good job balancing the game. I personally don't need Harry in his actual state, which is okay, I don't take the errata for a crime vs my wallet. IMO the game itself just gets wider and stays balanced for this price.

Speaking of my miniatures budget if you're interested. I have two factions of GB, which is the only game I play at the moment. And I think very few GB players own less models than me. Assembling a 12 models faction costs me just about the price of 2 solo GB blisters. Two kinds of glues, green stuff, broken drill bits, basing stuff etc. And they are still unpainted in this calculation. So the new Union rules can, of course, be criticized, but when we begin to talk about "refunding my money" for Harry, the conversation suddenly takes a very special direction.

I play wargames for two decades now, and the worst thing never was these closing-out rules that will hit Union slots in 1-2 years. The worst thing is when game development loses its direction, and you are forced to buy models of ever-growing size, quantity and cost, and the worst thing is when you get forced to buy said models to stay somewhat in the flow.

Now with the planned Union ruling, I will lose some $30 for a 2-3 years long period (the time I played with my extra models and the time left to play with them). Trust me, there is no gaming system that makes you lose less for a given period like that. And occasionally we aren't talking about the price of the Hat blister but of a new laptop.

Of course I don't want to force my opinion to anyone, and I fully respect every points made on the new ruling. But SF I think makes a great work for now, and I also think this upcoming loss of 1-2-3 blisters makes up for the possibility to evade much bigger losses over time. Eg. selling your whole collection for 1/3 its price because the whole game gets fat and derailed.

Sorry if I was offensive or patronizing, I didn't mean to be so.

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On 11/24/2017 at 1:41 AM, Bohemian said:

I wanted to weigh in on this one. I think the Engineer Harry looked better. Alchemists were ahead until SFG previewed the models.  I am sad that we don't get a new model until we are uncompetitive as a guild. I don't think that is going to happen next year. I happened to buy the Union Starter to get Decimate. I was going to start Union as my next guild, so my models won't go to waste (even played a game with the primed figures). However, I've had Hemlocke since season 2 and have never played her. 

Alchemists will at least get two new models that play for them at some point, via their Minor Guild.

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Given that Mat on Singled Out suggested the minor guilds will be spread over 2 years, and (jokingly) suggested that alchemists will be last, you van probably expect to be able to use Harry for quite a while yet.

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10 minutes ago, malladin.ben said:

Given that Mat on Singled Out suggested the minor guilds will be spread over 2 years, and (jokingly) suggested that alchemists will be last, you van probably expect to be able to use Harry for quite a while yet.

I'm pretty sure he said that the team that whines the most goes last. ;)

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Eh.  From a fluff perspective I'm glad we lost now.  The hat is apparently haunted or some nonsense.  Engineer Harry is 'sad teen girl being possessed by headgear'.  I'd be sad if we lost Calculus down that particular rabbit hole.

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