Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
malladin.ben

"balancing" the Butchers

Recommended Posts

Because I like speculative game design discussions as opposed to any serious discussion about "need" for change, and with Steamcon coming around again (and I'm stuck in work for another 3 hours until I can get out to go there), I started to think... What if there was another rebalance like at the start of Season 3. What would you change?

Lets go through the team and see what we think needs help, nerfing back or is just about right.

1. Fillet: No change. She's absolutely fine. Devastating if you set her up right, but takes a bit of skill to do so.

2. Ox: Again, no change. Much as I was disappointed by the changes at first, trying them out leaves me perfectly happy with him. He's more forgiving than Fillet, but not quite as spectacular, even on his legendary turn.

3. Princess: I think out mascots suffer a bit from being pretty passive, and Princess is certainly the most passive of the two. There's no incentive to actually give her any influence or do anything with her other than hang around. Something to do with the ball seems like a good shout. How about a trait that gives her [+0"/+2"] MOV and pay 1 less when charging an enemy model with the ball? Something like Floored might be good, too, to make an attack with her worthwhile in the right situation.

4. Truffles: Doesn't suffer from the passive problems that Princess as much, but does suffer from being seen as generally a worse option to Princess. Whilst I think if you fix some of the other players, Boiler becomes less of an auto include which might mean truffles sees more play, but I think a slight tweak could make him compete effectively with an improved Princess. The big drawback is speed, not only is it difficult to get hi into the fight early, he also really suffers from terrain. To improve him a little in this regard, I'd give truffles Stop Slacking.

5. Boar: No change. The big guy does what he's supposed to - not without problem, but with I think the risk-to-reward about balances him out. He's slow, but I think any more MOV would break him.

6. Boiler: No change. I think Boiler is the measuring stick by which all other players should be balanced.

7. ogBrisket: I realise butchers players are divided on which Brisket they prefer, but I'm of the opinion that both could do with a little help. Let's look at the original first. She was fantastic in Season 1 and 2, but now she's lost her doggo-bonus I've found she can too often whiff. TAC 4 is just not very butchersy and too easily shut down by armour crowdouts and cover. To make up for this I'd give her some sort of situational TAC bonus or enemy ARM penalty (the DEF penalty of Dirty Knives doesn't particularly help as it's removing dice that causes her the problems). Weak point might be a possibility, but I think it needs to be something that helps only her, so she doesn't just become a support-bot. Given she's a striker I'd have it tied into her being in possession of the ball. How about: When this model is in possession of the ball marker, enemy models suffer [-1] ARM when attacked by this model. All that said, perhaps a simpler tweak is to make her non-momentous 1 a non-momentous 1< so that she can pretty much always get a dodge off.

8. vBrisket: The trouble here is that she has one of the most powerful abilities in the game, but it tends to be a case of go early, score a goal, get the extra influence, then ignore her for the rest of the game. I'd like her to be a bit more useful than just that goal. I also wonder if that ability itself is too powerful - it skews your strategy and makes her included pretty much for just a single ability, which I don't think should ever be the case. What if it only worked for one turn? After you've nerfed that, though, I think she needs something added. I quite like the idea of a situational damage buff to bring her more actively into the game as a killer later on in the game, but not sure what. Suggestions?

9. Meathook: The only player I think needs a nerf. She does so much that it's difficult to drop her, and does so much in the game with 1 INF that she doesn't really make for a fun model for your opponent to interact with. A mild nerf only I think is needed, as her 1" melee and 2/3 INF stat limit her somewhat. I would have hooked only apply to a model that is already suffering bleed, which means she will usually need to hit someone twice to get it off.

10. Shank: He's not as bad as I've previously argued. He has a different role now to the one he used to have in S1 and 2, but he still does a job. It's just that some of his card no-longer seems to fit with that roll. Shank is a mobile troubleshooter. He can't do much, but he can do what he does pretty much anywhere on the pitch each turn. Thousand Cuts worked for him in S2 when you had Avarisse singling someone out and KDing them and a couple of gang ups in place so he could trigger it off a single attack and get 3 more to finish someone off with wraps. Now he's not the same and it's not a play that suits his new role. He is not a support character for the rest of the team. With Harry losing most of what made him great in Butchers, I think Shank could be a good candidate for getting Goad in guild, which I also think fits with his fluff. Whether Goad on such a mobile model would be too powerful is an issue worth considering, so maybe a goad-like ability but with a reduced range, or playbook trigger only. Even if his Goad-ish ability is one that has a playbook trigger, it probably shouldn't be as high on the playbook as Thousand Cuts (having it a 3 hits like WtG seems about right to me), so we need something to replace the double icon. I'd suggest a T< or 2dmg T.

11. Tenderiser: I've said it before, I'm not interested in a countercharging model, I like tenderiser as an up-field brawler. I think he needs a variant of Rush Keeper that gives him [+1"/+1"] MOV and Floored but drops Rush Keeper and Goal Defence.  I also think he needs his KD on 1. If he has that, I don't think you're that worried about his 1 INF.

12. vOx: Not sure here. Overall I think he's about right. It disappoints me that his pushes aren't momentous, but if they were he wouldn't be much of a butcher. I think I'd jut add a > to his 2 and 3 damage results, and that would probably make him a bit more viable since he lost his buddy, Harry. He' also another candidate for Goad, but his card is so full at the moment.

Anyway, that's my thoughts. Just for fun. What do you think?

Ben

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In general I'm happy with the Butchers. I think we are firmly in the middle of the competitive meta and being in the middle is a good spot because we get to avoid nerfs. Also, unlike other games, the difference between the top guild and bottom guild isn't so big that the bottom guild (morts) is unable to beat the top guild. 

However, I don't want to derail your thread because I feel like your intent wasn't negative, but rather a speculative-what-if exercise. So I'll play along. 

I agree with you that both Fillet and Ox are both in good spots. I'm working on the math right now, but currently these two (despite what the internet tries to tell you about Tapper and Vet Rage) are the two highest damage dealing captains in the game. This is not an opinion, but just math. 

If I had a Christmas list it would be that Tenderizer swaps his counter charge for the lightning reflex ability from Skulk. Being able to engage models who dodge within 6" seems more useful vs the strikers I am concerned about: flint & Shark

And with Truffles, I don't know. Maybe I'm using Hog Wild wrong, but I haven't found much use out of that ability yet. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dwhite87 said:

In general I'm happy with the Butchers. I think we are firmly in the middle of the competitive meta and being in the middle is a good spot because we get to avoid nerfs. Also, unlike other games, the difference between the top guild and bottom guild isn't so big that the bottom guild (morts) is unable to beat the top guild. 

However, I don't want to derail your thread because I feel like your intent wasn't negative, but rather a speculative-what-if exercise. So I'll play along. 

I agree with you that both Fillet and Ox are both in good spots. I'm working on the math right now, but currently these two (despite what the internet tries to tell you about Tapper and Vet Rage) are the two highest damage dealing captains in the game. This is not an opinion, but just math. 

If I had a Christmas list it would be that Tenderizer swaps his counter charge for the lightning reflex ability from Skulk. Being able to engage models who dodge within 6" seems more useful vs the strikers I am concerned about: flint & Shark

And with Truffles, I don't know. Maybe I'm using Hog Wild wrong, but I haven't found much use out of that ability yet. 

I think the stats show the bottom guild is Brewers currently. But the data is all messed up all over the place. But yes, the difference between top and bottom, whether guilds or individual models is small. But as you say, let's not derail things, this is just a bit of fun.

I'm not sure about swapping counter charge for lightning reflexes helps much. You only feel the need for lightning reflexes because people are getting around your counter charge. You probs my need both, but the would probably be too powerful a combo.

I'm with you on hogwild. Why would I ever spend 1 INF on that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, dwhite87 said:



And with Truffles, I don't know. Maybe I'm using Hog Wild wrong, but I haven't found much use out of that ability yet. 

Using Hog Wild wrong  is paying  1 inf for it 😂

 

I have never used Hog Wild

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, kaladorm said:

Using Hog Wild wrong  is paying  1 inf for it 😂

 

I have never used Hog Wild

I used it a couple of times, essentially to annoy hammer when he used damaging knockbacks to just walk the pig back into him. Didn’t seem worth the influence though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like most of what you're spinning here except for the suggestion of Goad on Shank.  I'm pretty confident Goad is specifically not in Butchers for a reason- they can kill absolutely anything that gets within range, and the limiting factor on that is currently that you have to actually go get to the opponent you want to kill.  Forcing them to come to you feels more control-based and less "butcher-y" for lack of a better term.  Imagine what happens if suddenly the only direction you're allowed to move on your turn is towards a yet-to-be-activated Boar.  I think the design space for the Butchers on purpose is that they don't control the opponent, they beat them to death.  I don't disagree Shank could use a little something (also I also think he's fine how he is now), but Goad is, IMO, not it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Fish-in-a-Beer said:

I like most of what you're spinning here except for the suggestion of Goad on Shank.  I'm pretty confident Goad is specifically not in Butchers for a reason- they can kill absolutely anything that gets within range, and the limiting factor on that is currently that you have to actually go get to the opponent you want to kill.  Forcing them to come to you feels more control-based and less "butcher-y" for lack of a better term.  Imagine what happens if suddenly the only direction you're allowed to move on your turn is towards a yet-to-be-activated Boar.  I think the design space for the Butchers on purpose is that they don't control the opponent, they beat them to death.  I don't disagree Shank could use a little something (also I also think he's fine how he is now), but Goad is, IMO, not it.

I did worry about suggesting it that it wasn't quite the right thing. In just miss it from when I could play Harry :'-(. Whilst I agree that butchers should be crap at control, I'm not sure that means that they can't have a little bit of control. How about this:

Taunt [CST GB, RNG P, OPT Y]: target enemy model must pay [+1] INF the first time they declare an attack or charge against a model other than this model.

Seems like a minor goad with higher risk factors (other than the dice roll).

That said, I always used goad to try and prevent a kick, so maybe just smashed shins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to throw in my opinions on what could change for butchers going into season 4.

Ox: Over all I think the errata from earlier, was a very nice buff that took me awhile to really appreciate it. I do think though that he should gain 2 inch melee but I don't think that will happen especially because of the recent UIC results.

FIllet: I feel like Fillet is kind of suffering, shes still arguably our best captain but with a growing meta of farmers and blacksmiths shes losing her appeal. I would like to have her old blood dance back or she lose pain circle in place of something that might help her kick better as she is a striker.

Truffles: I would like to see him/her lose vindictive and gain furious instead. Truffles is our worst mascot but I think that's more of the synergy of boiler that makes him a huge main pick in butchers, truffles on the other hand is more pro active and I feel like putting influence on truffles and not ever feel that I wasted influence on it.

I think both Briskets are fine though I feel like their TAC could go up by 1.

Shank: I've been using him a lot more but more as a flanker/ball getter/striker and its been mildly successful. The 3 influence max is definitely hurting him but so is the 2/6 kick. I think we've argued the need for him to be a 2/4 or a 1/4 enough but I'll make another suggestion and say that his kick could change to something like a 2/8 or a 3/6. I also think that because hes actually pretty good at getting the ball that Close control on him would be great and would finally give butchers some ball control.

Tenderiser: I would like to see him be a 5/7 movement.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

Taunt [CST GB, RNG P, OPT Y]: target enemy model must pay [+1] INF the first time they declare an attack or charge against a model other than this model.

 

I like this a LOT.  I might make it have a restriction of "if this model is within 6", target enemy model...", just so you can't zap someone with it and then run away (which one would think would reduce the effectiveness of the taunting...), but I like the concept.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is some switches I would look to do.

Truffles: Make Hog Wild passive, it doesn't take influence, he just does it once per turn. Makes him a bit more mobile and annoying to the enemy team. Plus could in fact speed him up as well, if he hasn't activated yet.

Princess: Is fine, think I use her a lot, and do early activation's with her, just to get off Rapid Animal, and lock down models who run away.

Ox: Think he needs tough hide or go to 4/1, needs to be more survivable to keep his team going.

Boiler: Leave a lone

Fillet: Give her dodge back on playbook plays, with the home crowd momentum, it really hurts her.

Shank: I would like him to have a knock down in there somewhere, maybe a play, sweep the legs, etc. Make it a chance if you leave combat with him to rethink it.

Boar: Leave a lone

Meathook: Leave a lone

Tenderizer: 2 influence, KD on one hit, keep +1 against goals, but counter charge up the board not just from being 4" from the goal.

Brisket: Her weapon has always looked like 2", if it was she would be perfect

VBrisket: Leave a lone

VOX: He is good, maybe put the drag lower in the play book, I have a hard time wanting to use it with other earlier options, also think his rowdy would be just better as a passive instead of having to trigger it, or put the trigger with damage or something. Feels like a hard decision when to choose it over damage plays in his play book. Maybe a 2 damage/Rowdy, but non momentous.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×