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JacctheInsomniac

A Thread to Talk About My Problem(s) With the Hunters

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6 hours ago, Lumpyseven said:

I also think you guys are being drawn in by the trap that is Theron's character plays. One of the best ways to use him is a beatstick, with all of the Hunters abilities to get people's defense down, you can easily wrap on every attack with Theron and pump out horrendous amounts of damage!

This is what I've found in the last few games where I've started sticking Theron into it.  Charge and usually get a KD and a snare, follow up with 4 melee swings that usually wrap and generate a stack of momentum, and then bang off a Pinned or Snipe with some of that momentum.  It's actually been a 1 turn takeout of an opponent model in my last three games.

Frees up oHearne, Jaecar and Fahad to triple team someone else, while Chaska's boom box keeps folks at bay.

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8 hours ago, Larhendiel said:

Ballista can get mom for all ranged for his entire team, make minefield, shoot from range, has amazing kick, ranged push and kd and can one round my (damaged) Windle when fully stacked.

@Larhendiel also, my pride and joy with post errata Theron is killing OKat from full hp with 6 influence :) I think he was knockdowned, snared and I had 2-3 crowdouts. Theron is a boss

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12 hours ago, ForestRambo said:

So what you want is Theron be able to one round anyone, while being able to do 6 damage at ranged and apply snared, provide a forest and be able to Pinned someone. I think if you take a look at the larger picture, his playbook is very good for what else he brings. 

11 hours ago, Lumpyseven said:

I also think you guys are being drawn in by the trap that is Theron's character plays. One of the best ways to use him is a beatstick, with all of the Hunters abilities to get people's defense down, you can easily wrap on every attack with Theron and pump out horrendous amounts of damage!

Again and again I've asserted that Theron's playbook isn't a problem, only that it is weak. His momentous Damage capping at 3 on 5 Net Hits is far from what you want out of a damage dealer. If he gets tied up by Tough Hide his momentous damage stagnates at 2 until you reach 9 Net hits. Pretty much any combat modifiers that benefit your opponents will drastically reduce the efficacy of his playbook because all of the results he's looking for are higher than average barring a 2" dodge on 2 hits.

Furthermore, beatstick playbooks require some kind of modifier that extends their value beyond the length of their playbooks. This is because it's exceptionally easy for your opponent to nullify some amount of your Tac values.

+1 DMG modifiers increase the value of early damage results, meaning its not as imperative to hit as many results if you have a 1-2Dmg around 2 Net Hits. Tac's longer than your playbook should be self explanatory but they mean you have more room for stray dice. They can let you wrap effectively, but their value should be highlighted as letting you miss dice and still unlock the higher results of your playbook. oKat is still capable of a full 6 Net Hits on a 2Arm target. The Hunter's only value that extends their playbooks are Snared, G&S, KD, and Singled Out. Of these the only one that actually increases the likelihood of upping Theron's damage output is SO, but even that doesn't let him hit the 9 Net Hits require to go above 2Dmg for Tough Hide. Theron's output in optimal conditions isn't even impressive for a damage dealer. If a damage dealing model has been setup, to the same degree that Theron would require being setup to consistently hit a M3 + M1, then they threaten to kill nearly any model in the game.

All of this to say that no, his playbook is not great, you don't unlock some hidden potential once you start using him in combat. It's just a playbook, and for a captain who wants to control his opponents at range and setup his team, that's fine.

Theron is a control-setup-support piece. Of these roles the only one he fulfills to a meaningful degree is the control part. He only provides setup by way of snared, and to that end, snared is easy to clear, and the payoff for going in on a snared target isn't remarkable when compared to the setup-risk-payoff economy established by other Guilds.

Support he only provides through Sun Strike and Blessing. Sun Strike is only valuable on 3 models, and if it misses on a single play then it hasn't been worth it. Sacrificial Puppet on Venin won someone a tournament, you WILL find an edge case where it is useful, so have I. That doesn't make an ability good. Blessing is a fantastic ability after the change, though he does like to eat it up for himself. What this all culminates to is that Theron would provide a satisfying playstyle if his output wasn't so consistently underwhelming.

Ultimately I'm trying to highlight a problem by focusing on the feel of these models. The greatest sin that the Hunters commit is failing to deliver on their thematic fantasy, and I give SFG major credit for delivering on it in nearly every other guild. Morts feel like spooky people, Butchers feel like bloody psychopaths, Masons feel boring, Brewers feel like big drunks, Fish feel slippery, Smoke feels like Smoke, etc. etc.

It is called GUILD Ball, thematic fantasy is half of the game.

4 hours ago, Lumpyseven said:

@Larhendiel also, my pride and joy with post errata Theron is killing OKat from full hp with 6 influence :) I think he was knockdowned, snared and I had 2-3 crowdouts. Theron is a boss

Honestly, with that kind of setup it'd be more impressive if Theron didn't manage to kill him. You're looking at a Tac of 9 or 10 against a Def 2 target without Tough Hide, so long as you have a damage result in the first/second column and a single result above 3 you're gonna get that kill. I'm sure it was fun to roll out, but that kinda furthers the point that his playbook is just okay.

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9 hours ago, JacctheInsomniac said:

Again and again I've asserted that Theron's playbook isn't a problem, only that it is weak. His momentous Damage capping at 3 on 5 Net Hits is far from what you want out of a damage dealer. If he gets tied up by Tough Hide his momentous damage stagnates at 2 until you reach 9 Net hits. Pretty much any combat modifiers that benefit your opponents will drastically reduce the efficacy of his playbook because all of the results he's looking for are higher than average barring a 2" dodge on 2 hits.

Furthermore, beatstick playbooks require some kind of modifier that extends their value beyond the length of their playbooks. This is because it's exceptionally easy for your opponent to nullify some amount of your Tac values.

+1 DMG modifiers increase the value of early damage results, meaning its not as imperative to hit as many results if you have a 1-2Dmg around 2 Net Hits. Tac's longer than your playbook should be self explanatory but they mean you have more room for stray dice. They can let you wrap effectively, but their value should be highlighted as letting you miss dice and still unlock the higher results of your playbook. oKat is still capable of a full 6 Net Hits on a 2Arm target. The Hunter's only value that extends their playbooks are Snared, G&S, KD, and Singled Out. Of these the only one that actually increases the likelihood of upping Theron's damage output is SO, but even that doesn't let him hit the 9 Net Hits require to go above 2Dmg for Tough Hide. Theron's output in optimal conditions isn't even impressive for a damage dealer. If a damage dealing model has been setup, to the same degree that Theron would require being setup to consistently hit a M3 + M1, then they threaten to kill nearly any model in the game.

All of this to say that no, his playbook is not great, you don't unlock some hidden potential once you start using him in combat. It's just a playbook, and for a captain who wants to control his opponents at range and setup his team, that's fine.

Theron is a control-setup-support piece. Of these roles the only one he fulfills to a meaningful degree is the control part. He only provides setup by way of snared, and to that end, snared is easy to clear, and the payoff for going in on a snared target isn't remarkable when compared to the setup-risk-payoff economy established by other Guilds.

Support he only provides through Sun Strike and Blessing. Sun Strike is only valuable on 3 models, and if it misses on a single play then it hasn't been worth it. Sacrificial Puppet on Venin won someone a tournament, you WILL find an edge case where it is useful, so have I. That doesn't make an ability good. Blessing is a fantastic ability after the change, though he does like to eat it up for himself. What this all culminates to is that Theron would provide a satisfying playstyle if his output wasn't so consistently underwhelming.

Ultimately I'm trying to highlight a problem by focusing on the feel of these models. The greatest sin that the Hunters commit is failing to deliver on their thematic fantasy, and I give SFG major credit for delivering on it in nearly every other guild. Morts feel like spooky people, Butchers feel like bloody psychopaths, Masons feel boring, Brewers feel like big drunks, Fish feel slippery, Smoke feels like Smoke, etc. etc.

It is called GUILD Ball, thematic fantasy is half of the game.

Honestly, with that kind of setup it'd be more impressive if Theron didn't manage to kill him. You're looking at a Tac of 9 or 10 against a Def 2 target without Tough Hide, so long as you have a damage result in the first/second column and a single result above 3 you're gonna get that kill. I'm sure it was fun to roll out, but that kinda furthers the point that his playbook is just okay.

I am just going to go ahead to agree to disagree here. I see Theron as a different captain as you and I probably play him differently to you. 

Sorry to hear you haven't found success with them, I'm doing pretty well with them and having real fun with playing them. Most of luck in the future :D

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3 Games in with Hunters. 1 Loss, 1 Win (12-0!), and one nearly-win (10-12 against morts) where it came down to the initiative roll. 

I'm firmly in the LIKE camp. I've had some fun with Chaska, marveled at Jaecar's bounce-stab-bounce, and finally got my head around the forest thing. I'm getting a better understanding of the game and feel another win is just around the corner. 

I'm not one to play Theory Ball, and I probably have far more fun than people that agonise over Inf/Mom ratios. Theory comes from average rolls, and when do you ever get average rolls in a game?! I always roll low unless I need to roll high. I got four 6's on the bounce recently. Playing Necroumnda, when I needed anything but 6's. 

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After all the points made in both camps, not that there really are two camps.

The net point I seem to be getting from all this.  Usually we are expected to win via 1-4 i.e. one goal and 4 takes outs.

The damage or how we get the damage to get the takes outs is either a very long chain where one dice roll stops the whole chain (ok thats the rub)

but even once you get though the rolls the chain, to deliver your damage, it is usually for a max of 3 damage for a LOT of expense that a lot of set up and a lot in inf and or momentum.

Now if the usual game plan was a 2-2 or 3-0 thats fine but our strikers playbook don't match the football side either i.e the striker doesn't have the light footed to use the terrain dropped by our guild members, our best kicker is a captain on 4/6 the RANGE of six inches compared to most teams having at least one 4/8. Cripes even the butcher have two 3/8 footballer's and they are considered a take out team.

 

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I can see where your coming from on all of this but I still find the Hunters to be a lot of fun and by far my favorite guild. Theron has been my favorite player since release. The boost he got in the last errata was needed, but he’s always been fun for me. You view his playbook as not being great due to a lack of damage access. I look at it and see access to basically every result you could want. Momentous 2 on 3 successes isn’t bad considering he snares someone with one success. He has single and double pushes and dodges, a knockdown, momentous 1,2, and 3 damage, and a 4 damage. Can you always reliably hit them all? No. But if you need a specific result, he’s got it on his playbook and can probably hit it on a charge. That playbook coupled with his plays and abilities make him great in my opinion. 

Hunters aren’t easy to run compared to other teams, but that’s also something that appeals to me about this game. In the background, the Hunters are basically a group of players brought together at the last minute to play some ball due to an agreement between Hearne and Obulus. Playing them kind of feels that’s way. Maybe it’s just me but to me they fee like a group of players that don’t really know the intricacies of the sport, but are athletic and dangerous enough to make a game of it against the professionals. I’m hoping as the team becomes more established in the background we’ll receive some more soccer focused players, but for now, I think the Hunters are in a really interesting and really fun spot. 

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5 hours ago, Cincinnati GBC said:

Hunters are basically a group of players brought together at the last minute to play some ball due to an agreement between Hearne and Obulus.

According to the story, they are kind of a forest Union who don't really get the hang of this game, and try to solve matches like hunting down jackalopes for breakfast. In this regard, they absolutely deliver their thematic fantasy. Aragorn can be found in a different universe :)

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5 hours ago, Cincinnati GBC said:

In the background, the Hunters are basically a group of players brought together at the last minute to play some ball due to an agreement between Hearne and Obulus. Playing them kind of feels that’s way.

You'll forgive me if I can't really take thematic based defenses for mechanics seriously while Ulfr still walks to earth.

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13 minutes ago, JacctheInsomniac said:

You'll forgive me if I can't really take thematic based defenses for mechanics seriously while Ulfr still walks to earth.

Nothing to forgive at all. You don’t like it. I think it’s cool. Wasn’t trying to say you’re wrong just pointing out something I like about it. 

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Speaking of theme,  I think it’s pretty clear thematically what Hunters are supposed to do. Set traps. Prepare. Then, strike unexpectedly from hiding before retreating back to safety.

In theory we have all the tools for this:  Trap markers, snared,  Back to the Shadows, Light Footed, & Ranged character plays.  I think the problem we face is that the “payoff” for playing Hunters by their theme is underwhelming.

As has been said many times before, the Hunters player is forced to commit to several activations worth of setup to achieve a result that comes close to what many other guilds can get out of a single player with no comparable investment.

I think the theme can be preserved, given access to all the things above. To improve the “payoff” we just need to up the reward by wrapping our playbooks more.  Without drastic changes there’s 3 simple ways to do this:

1. More access to Singled Out:  our playstyle doesn’t lend itself to Ganging Up, so this is how WE get More dice. oHearne has it. Snow could. Jaecar would never miss Bleed if he had Singled Out instead.   In my opinion, at least three Hunters should have it (A&G not included).

2. Charge on the Cheap:  one of our best advantages is our unpredictable threat range. Encourage our influence-hungry team to charge more.  I’m not saying more models with Furious. But a conditional ability like VBrisket’s Support From the Wing? Maybe something that made charges cost [1] INF when charging from rough ground? Wouldn’t that be... thematic?

3.  Shorter playbooks:  A lot of people are saying Ulfr should have 4 columns rather than 5. How about 3 columns rather than 4?  In fact, every Hunter could have a mediocre playbook and low to average TAC (some would argue they already do) offset by a playbook that’s 1 shorter than their printed TAC.  Chaska is like this already- but you’re probably Boom Box-ing with him, not charging. Seenah is too.  Everyone should be, with the possible exception of Fahad.

In summary : same theme. Same setup. more dice. more wrapped playbooks leading to more momentum, more damage, and/or more dodges/pushes.  Our high tackles, 1” melee, and lackluster  football skills offset by the likelihood of charging in unexpected from across the pitch, stealing the ball, and dodging away from the counterattack.

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4 hours ago, Mistergone said:

1. More access to Singled Out:  our playstyle doesn’t lend itself to Ganging Up, so this is how WE get More dice. oHearne has it. Snow could. Jaecar would never miss Bleed if he had Singled Out instead.   In my opinion, at least three Hunters should have it (A&G not included).

I've been underwhelmed by Isolated Target especially compared to tooled up. 

It would be really cool to see isolated target give +2 TAC in addition to it's base damage.  Give Isolated Target to Jaecar and Ulfer (remove Ulfer's Lone Hunter).  Like you I agree, keep the theme of the setup.  Give the opponent the opponent time to respond (usually).  But the number of times someone walks a mascot over a trap just to get it out of the way and not really care about it.  Make them debate if walking into a trap is going to screw them over or not.

4 hours ago, Mistergone said:

2. Charge on the Cheap:  one of our best advantages is our unpredictable threat range. Encourage our influence-hungry team to charge more.  I’m not saying more models with Furious. But a conditional ability like VBrisket’s Support From the Wing? Maybe something that made charges cost [1] INF when charging from rough ground? Wouldn’t that be... thematic?

Again I'd tie this into traps, reducing the influence cost to charge a snared target for a few players would be great.

4 hours ago, Mistergone said:

3.  Shorter playbooks:  A lot of people are saying Ulfr should have 4 columns rather than 5. How about 3 columns rather than 4?  In fact, every Hunter could have a mediocre playbook and low to average TAC (some would argue they already do) offset by a playbook that’s 1 shorter than their printed TAC.  Chaska is like this already- but you’re probably Boom Box-ing with him, not charging. Seenah is too.  Everyone should be, with the possible exception of Fahad.

Having more TAC than you have columns is called a brewers playbook for a reason.  This is their thing and a small handful of other players.  let them keep it.

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9 hours ago, Sitaavanu said:

Having more TAC than you have columns is called a brewers playbook for a reason.  This is their thing and a small handful of other players.  let them keep it.

Fair enough. But Brewers also have access to Tooled Up and Commanding Aura. They’re also more likely to want the scrum and the Ganging Up/Crowding Out bonuses that come with it. 

That being said, the hoops we’re made to jump through in the name of “theme” should have the result of more dice, better final playbook results, or both.

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The newly keyworded Disease effect is something I've been mulling about since seeing it on Crucible.

If the Hunters aren't gonna be allowed to have +1 DMG/+1 Tac buffs, then I could see them relying on Poison/Bleed effects to whittle down large opponents like Balista, or the Master Blacksmiths, while Disease stops them from cheaply undoing the damage.

Not a fan of the flavor behind it though, I'd prefer to imagine the extra trouble comes from Barbed Spears not Feces Spears. In fairness, both were used in warfare.

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On 11/18/2017 at 1:55 AM, Mistergone said:

Speaking of theme,  I think it’s pretty clear thematically what Hunters are supposed to do. Set traps. Prepare. Then, strike unexpectedly from hiding before retreating back to safety.

In theory we have all the tools for this:  Trap markers, snared,  Back to the Shadows, Light Footed, & Ranged character plays.  I think the problem we face is that the “payoff” for playing Hunters by their theme is underwhelming.

As has been said many times before, the Hunters player is forced to commit to several activations worth of setup to achieve a result that comes close to what many other guilds can get out of a single player with no comparable investment.

*snip*

I played against Butchers on Saturday, and you're spot on here. I could always see what I needed to do, but it always required Theron having 15inf and unlimited plays and my opponent not having a turn until i finished doing what I wanted to do. 1st activation of turn 2 I scored with Jaecar, then he took out Fahad and Hearne. On Turn 3 he took out every single other model other than Hearne and scored for a 14-4 win. I think I played a bit too cagey, rather using my dodges to get around a bit better. And see that I need to take out Ox, Lad and Dog in that order. Lessons Learnt. 

Now fair shits, I'm incredibly salty towards Butchers. I don't have a great Win rate (but I'm not losing as comprehensively anymore!), but I utterly hate playing against them. I'm going all in on Blacksmiths just see what having a SFG favoured team feels like :lol:

Went slightly off topic there, sorry. I still like Hunters, and feel it almost coming together with them... but I really dislike playing against Butchers. They just take all the fun out of the game no matter what team I'm using. 

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Of all the things suggested here, Jaecar does NOT need Isolated Target. He's already captain Jaecar for a reason.

I played 16 games this weekend with Hunters, only losing 3. Going to write it up on the blog at some point. :)

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On 11/12/2017 at 10:01 PM, JacctheInsomniac said:

If Jaecar is the reason that so many of the Hunter’s have to be counterbalanced then give him the Maverick Character Trait. It’s even got a fluff tie in for him.

 

On 11/14/2017 at 10:31 PM, Sitaavanu said:

Jaecar ... your gonna have to get feedback from other players on him, I am underwhelmed.

 

Sorry to just snip a small section out of your posts, but this is essentially the biggest problem with the Hunters Guild in general..

Jaecar has too much potential if given tools that would make him borderline OP so the rest of the guild need to suffer without them, the downside of this is he is incredibly influence hungry and reliant on the dice gods to do obtain his maximum output..

The other major issue is that most Hunters players appear to have stockholm syndrome to the point that they can't see Jaecar is the cause of a lot of the guilds problem and cling to him as their lord and savior for that one in a million game when your dice roll hot and he actually does what he is s'posed to do..

Maybe I'm jaded from personal experiences regarding this too but I've often seen him lose more victory points in a game than he's earned, both playing with and against him and would willingly accept a nerf to his influence pool and gaining the Maverick trait if the rest of the team could get access to the abilities they need to be on par with other guilds..

Lastly, I totally agree with the fact the Winters Moon players appear to have been pre nerfed around Skathas ability to create fast ground which often leaves them being out paced by opposing players who have superior move stats without it and get the benefits of Nature's Chill whenever it is put down..

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17 hours ago, Redmaw said:

Winters Moon players appear to have been pre nerfed around Skathas ability to create fast ground which often leaves them being out paced by opposing players who have superior move stats

its not just that, see one of my comments earlier, because of the FG, their kick range has been reduced too.  So if FG is present you still need to get even closer to the goal to even shoot. (Edit: not all models) that said Skatha move is 5/7  where as almost all other footie models are 6/8.

Its like we HAVE to place FG down just to get into shooting range because our kick stat is lower (Except Egret). Place a FG that can at times be a benefit to the opponent who have a 6/8 move, and this is just to get into range to attempt a shot.

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Honestly, if there’s one problem I have with the Hunters it’s Skatha and Ulfr’s speed stats. It never bothered me really until Iron and some of the other Blacksmiths were released. You’re telling me it’s ok for a model with Battering Ram to sprint up to 10”, not including any buffs or abilities except a 1 cost character play, but Skatha can’t sprint more than 7” because she can put down fast ground on herself and maybe get a 4” dodge for 2 influence as long as you can hit a 4 dice pass? I was ok with that at first, but now I’m not so sure. 

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23 hours ago, Mako said:

Now now, play fair - we can’t all be that stupidly good. They have to work for mortals too ;)

To be fair I'm nothing special. I play a lot and I'm lucky enough to play against some of the best in the world on a regular basis. There's nothing like hitting your head against the wall of talent. 

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