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      Training Ground   02/14/2018

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Wild Rose

Idea for Thresher Change

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I've been watching this thread for a while now, and whenever I've posted on it I have largely tried to sit on a pretty wobbly fence. I had a couple of games last night with a long-time GB buddy of mine who, like me, has been playing since retail release.

He played Thresher quite a bit over the SCUK weekend and I've played him a bit as a proxy before the box came out. Neither of us, though, has played much against him.

We had a really good chat through some of our thoughts about him and I think I've decided which side of the fence to come down on.

I created a bit of a ruckus in the early days S3, complaining about shark and Midas, and I hope i learned a bit from playing Fillet a lot in S2. I believe I know what the problem is here, and I don't think it's about the power level of Thresher.

The game is pretty well balanced. Even in the dark days of S2 fillet and Obulus, and pre-errata shark and Midas, the guild choice never really overrode the rule that the better player wins.

That said, all of the above 4 models were a problem and needed a nerf. The reason is that they don't give your opponent the ability to interact with or do very much about preventing them from doing their thing. I think this was probably worse in S2 when Obulus and fillet would just prevent you from spending a ton of INF each turn, as opposed to Shark and Midas who just score a goal, but the lack of interaction, I believe, is the source of negative experiences in your opponent.

I think, therefore, there are two main changes I'd like to see implemented:

1. You can make a counter attack against an enemy model that is engaging you, both of you are not also engaging it, it gains +1 DEF. (This one will new to be in the S4 core rules, and possibly need a buff to some other models to compensate, but I think it will be for the good of the game overall if it happens)

2. Take One For the Team becomes a once per turn ability, and the range is reduced to 4".

The 3" melee zone being impossible to interact with, and the repeated use of T1ftT to prevent KDs and other condition play is another big thing that stops you doing things to limit Thresher.

I would also suggest the following change Thresher, not particularly for power balance reasons, but because I don't think the joint-longest base threat range of any captain the game should be an old man. I'd drop him to 4/7 MOV.

The problem isn't whether he is OP, it's that his ability to do his stuff without any reply from the opponent is NPE.

Cheerio,

Ben

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*chuckle* guys, I’m definitely no avatar for pro play - I can’t stay with any guild long enough and I’m strictly just an amateur. Don’t use me as a yard stick on beatability of Thresher! 🙂

I made many mistakes (partly as my fourth game with Thresher) and in hindsight I would do it all differently. I didn’t choose Millstone so much as Henry did because I let him kick. I was so worried about giving a football team the ball. I think I should have kicked, controlled the game through Thresher momentum and then put the ball somewhere Brisket can’t get it back. Or just received and dropped the ball and ignored it. Not sure (I was also pretty annoyed at a terrible Plot Card draw-I really hate random draw). Lack of practice against Brisket3 and Thresher caused me to make too many mistakes. Like any team you need to get practice in to win big tables. And besides, I lost to the event winner - not too shabby! Henry was the better player and GB rewarded him - sign of a good game.

Millstone’s allround too goodness combined with Reapers passive abilities not removing markers and triggering from too far away are my issues. The 4” means positioning markers is less relevant - odd in an positional game. Thresher is just the embodiment of the Farmers abilities working together. His 3” no interaction is questionable- like Ben i’d like to see an end to simply not being able to respond to longer reaches as it makes melee range an ever escalating conflict (you’ve got all 2”? Well I’ve got 3”! Well I’ve got 6”....). Not sure on the answer but my view was maybe a 1” advance directly towards your attacker after each attack if still engaged - allows dodge away still.

But then there’s a few rules I’d want to change in S4 ( cough target dice pool & TN when super engaged cough). 

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16 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

I would also suggest the following change Thresher, not particularly for power balance reasons, but because I don't think the joint-longest base threat range of any captain the game should be an old man. I'd drop him to 4/7 MOV.

What are you talking about?

(Dude even looks like Thresher...)

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On 8.12.2017 at 9:03 AM, malladin.ben said:

lack of interaction

This is basically the main problem he produces. Against 2" melee range you still might have something. So far only Ghast and Hearth seem to be able to do something about Thresher though, Ghast with his passive mode of stealing an additional Influence of the only five he can have. But aside from that? Gluttonous Mass and Sturdy give you something as well, but in the end there is still no real interaction aside from Hearth during legendary, and the lack of interaction is what made the Morticians getting nerfed (besides other points ofc). Corsair might be one of the best because Thresher can't just tackle and KD him. That is 4 Influence on ANY model, Thresher as well. So if we say he has the ball the only real models being able to passively defend are the ones ignoring KD or attacks in general, so Clone, Sturdy, Glutt Mass are the way to go. Morticians are pretty "happy" about Thresher because their "slippery models" just get killed without any repercussion because the few passive abilities we have just don't trigger. :D 

One of the problems I personally had was that the Morticians also have none of the above, no Glut Mass, no Sturdy, no Close Control, no Countercharge, nothing. Literally no ability to use against him aside from Shutout, but we all know how good that works when you really need it (Curse you, dice gods!). ;) 
Ghast seems to be the only other viable choice. Can't speak for other Guilds, but our Farmer Player started out with repeated 12  Nil in round about the 2nd round.

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So we had a tournament today. For the first time we split the participants in two according to Longshanks ranking points. (The idea behind this was to be able to finish with 3 rounds. The Major/Minor league split also helped to arrange more equal games regarding player skills and last but not least we had two winners in this way.)

Before today I polled the meta in advance whether or not I should bring Thresher. They said bring it on and so I did. I won by 12-4, 12-0, 12-0 even with a missed 4 dice goal, a missed 3 dice tap-in and I could even get away with a huge mistake in one of the games by letting UM trigger on Greyscales. To be fair, I'm the highest ranked player around and I won a few events before with Masons. However I consider one player roughly equal to my skills and another 4-5 who could give me hard games, all of them played in this higher bracket. The ease I could destroy my opponents was frightening and not fun for anyone. In order not to dishearten the guys even more I decided not to bring him to domestic tournaments until a patch comes.

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Much time's passed since the last reply on this topic, so I wonder if people have changed their minds about this and now they're more able to face "the dream team" with enough success.

Cause we had last sunday our first tournament since Thresser released and the game experience was awful.

Are we going to get over this or will It be basically the same infuriating match up all over again?

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Thresher will be a infuriating match up until he gets changed, that's true for nearly every guild right now (Even Fish and Engineers who I have think have the "best" match up into Thresher right now he's still advantaged). He raises the level you play at because of his current power level and just how straight forward he is to play well. 

That said people should totally be playing against him to provide valuable feedback to the problem. Playing one game crying NPE and not playing him again won't help it all. People should stress test games against Thresher to provide valuable solutions to solve the problem. I'm like 99.9% (hell even one staff member has told me "we're aware of Thresher) that he's going to see changes. 

The thing with Guildball is it's very finely tuned and just 1 or 2 changes to a few players in a team all at once can significantly change it (See Midas, Vitriol and Harry change). I totally appreciate SFG are taking the time to properly test any changes to most likely Thresher, Millstone & Tater so that when they're done they don't need to go back and patch up a shoddy errata. At this point It's just a waiting game until SFG nail the errata and are happy to produce it, my own personal things I'd like to see - 

Thresher
2" Melee
Don't fear the... within 2" of a harvest marker 
Kick 3/6
Move 5/7
Maybe a look at his playbook, a dodge on 1 and tackle on 2 just seems weird. 

Tater 
Counter-charge consume a harvest marker
Sweeping-charge only affect the charged model 

Millstone
2/3 Inf 
Take one for the team 4" aura
Get in the goal 1" push 

 

 

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@ForestRambo I think changing get out to 1 inch is a bit harsh, at the moment it's the the same distance as all other abilities that are in the same vain. Also I don't think sweeping charge needs changing as it effects both friendly and enemy models.

i don't think don't fear the ... needs a change but making his extended reach conditial to harvest markers changes makes forward planing more of a thing and keeps the flavour of the model while reduceing the size of don't fear the reapers. Reducing his speed I agree with. His kick range ... I'm not sure as your unlikely going to take bushel as they are both hungry models and that limits your scoring potential to buckweat and jack straw both of which are 2/8. So I'm not sure on that point.

why is dodge on 1 and tackle on 2 wired?

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I personally find a dodge on 1 and tackle on 2 paired with a 3/8 kick on a model that can delete models with no worries a bit odd. He's a total killing machine and when he's done doing all that with 3" reach he can casually walk over with his TAC7 and reliably tackle the ball from pretty much any model that's not DEF6. 

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Ah ok the way you wrote it I thought it was just a general thing not specific to thresher. The dodge is normally only used when dice Fial on the counter in my experiance as the KD gives him a dodge any way. Tackle I could see moving to the 3rd column though 

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What I would change:

4/6 MOV (or 5/7 with 2" melee zone)

Don't fear the... Removed or changed (It is insane)

That legendary (no + TAC, maybe change it for rowdy, or not a pulse)

I also like your thoughts on Millstone and Tater, ForestRambo

 

 

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24 minutes ago, TheLieutenant said:

We are. We'd have to be blind not to be. :) 

 

I know, I was just trying to be discreet and not have you guys all suddenly tagged in the conversation asking for opinions, I know you guys are currently very busy. I've at one point ended on the conversation topic with you, Jamie & Sherwin who were all very clear they know the points of contention / read the forums / facebook posts. 

You guys are da best, just keep doing what you're doing bro. 

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These are the things I'd like to see to the Farmers:

Thresher:
- Crow scarer discards the Harvest marker
- Make his 3" melee cost a harvest marker or just set it to 2"

- Change the range for Don't fear the... to 2" instead of 4"
- Change his Kick stat to 3/6"

- Change his Move to 5/7


Buckwheat:
- Territorial discards the Harvest marker

MiIlstone:
- Make her Infl 2/3
- Change range of Take one for the team to 4"

Harrow:
- Change Rapid growth to 4"

Ploughman:
- Up his Infl to 3/3

Tater:
- Change range of Fork Off to 2"
- Fork off discards the Harvest marker

Right now they have way too much positioning freedom and can use abilities without having to pay for them.
The Farmers schtick should be resource management with Harvest markers, so let more things actually discard them.

Force the farmers to make difficult choices on using them or to save them, but it should be a tough choice.

Millstone already brings enough to the table, without also being an Infl battery.

Reasoning behind increasing Ploughman's Infl is since he doesn't generate Harvest markers on his own, and have to fight for a spot on the team over Millstone, Harrow, Jackstraw.

 

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Some great points, I agree with a lot of them:

11 hours ago, Balefirestorm said:

MiIlstone:
- Make her Infl 2/3
- Change range of Take one for the team to 4"

Yes. She seems a key pieces that pushes Farmers too far for me and certainly needs a nerf.

14 hours ago, ForestRambo said:

Thresher
2" Melee
Don't fear the... within 2" of a harvest marker 
Kick 3/6
Move 5/7
Maybe a look at his playbook, a dodge on 1 and tackle on 2 just seems weird.

Yes to everything except removing Extended Reach. I'd almost prefer that he keep that but get a 1" melee (he's an old man, he's exhausted after the Extends himself).

14 hours ago, ForestRambo said:

Tater 
Counter-charge consume a harvest marker
Sweeping-charge only affect the charged model 

 

11 hours ago, Balefirestorm said:

Tater:
- Change range of Fork Off to 2"
- Fork off discards the Harvest marker

Sweeping Charge hitting everyone seems fun to me, risk to own team (maybe some Farmers could have HP reduced a little as well to make it more risky - at the moment some of them are just too hard to kill). 2" for the HM>Counter Charge seems ok, but I think it would need to be one or the other on the 2" or the consume HM. I don't find Tater too bad myself, as he is fragile for Farmers and 5 TAC needing 3 for a :KD: that hits his own team means he needs careful positioning which I think balances out much of his power.

 

11 hours ago, Balefirestorm said:

Ploughman:
- Up his Infl to 3/3

I'd love to seem him played more. I'd like his DEF changed to 4+ as well, possibly with a couple of HP knocked off to compensate (can't remember what is is currently), or possibly Poised.

 

11 hours ago, Balefirestorm said:

Buckwheat:
- Territorial discards the Harvest marker

Why? Love Buckwheat as is. 0/2 with a single potential free attack (at least Territorial says Once Per Turn, unlike Take One. Could Take One need an HM? Really make Farmers manage those resources?) seems balanced enough to me, and it's so easy to kill. Possibly a 1" deduction to its move as well?

 

I'd be tempted to drop Jackstraw to 2/3 INF as well, but we'd have to see how that would affect the rest of the team in terms of INF efficiency. A buff to Bushel would be nice - how about TAC 5, keeping the 4 long playbook? Not a lot, but gives her better odds of getting what she needs (Tooling her up might get rather strong however).

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I’d be afraid of doing to much to thresher directly. He is a great captain but its the support around which is pushing him over the top. Adjusting Threshers kick to a 3/6, and movement to 5/7 would be enough for him offensively, and make him 18hp. The slight bump in speed causes more situations where thresher has to charge, which makes him less efficient at scoring take outs. As a kick off model he is way to threatening, the slight adjustment to his sprint helps position turn 1 as the receiving player around Thresher’s shear threat range. He would still be a great beater, just less auto pilot. At 4/0 20 boxes and the amount of healing that Thresher can do, currently he is way to safe and efficient.

Millstone is in my opinion the model that frustrates my opponents most accross the pitch. First of all, She brings 4 influence to the team (3 and a harvest)! Take one for the team has won me games because I jogged her to the right spot at the right time to be 6 inches away from thresher to take an incoming condition. The aura should be 4 inches, 6 is such a large amount of the pitch that takes counter play away from opposing teams. Her playbook is Amazing with the amount of 2 inch melee and KDs the farmers bring to play. To change her, make her influence 2/3, take one for the team to be a 4 inch aura, and moving her 2 damage to the third column to fit in with the theme that she should be more of a defensive player. 

Tater is very strong but i dont think he is overpowered at all, he is in a good spot. He is easy to take out at 4/0 16 health, and has a pretty bad counter attack. If anything reducing the range on fork off to be within 2 inch for counter charge. 

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There's a problem nerfing the rest of the Farmer's players.

And the problem is that, maybe some ones don't remember him but, Grange is still being a Captain for this Guild.

A lot of nerf to Millstone or Tater, would probably impact Grange's teams as well.

 

So I think that the changes should focus on Thresher, specially Don't fear the..., although as a Farmer player I'll be sad :P

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2 hours ago, Neo_Maquiavelo said:

A lot of nerf to Millstone or Tater, would probably impact Grange's teams as well.

Millstone is OP in Grange as well.

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On 01/02/2018 at 6:36 PM, Neo_Maquiavelo said:

nd the problem is that, maybe some ones don't remember him but, Grange is still being a Captain for this Guild.

A lot of nerf to Millstone or Tater, would probably impact Grange's teams as well.

Most people remember him well enough and farmers should be toned down as a whole, not just Thresher.

 

While Thresher is far more easy to play and forgiving than Grange (and most of other GB captains to be fair), the support pieces of the farmer team just do a little bit to much each. Main culprits in my eyes: millstone, fallow, tater.

 

I agree that thresher may need a nerf but if only him gets it, my guess is that it would just result in reaching faster the best version of the "Grange prison" many people are starting to look at. And, in my opinion, if this is not adressed at the same time as thresher, sfg is in for another errata 3 months later or a tsunami of very salty tears on the forums when grange prison starts to get popular.

 

(We just had our French qualification for the wtc and while I don't have numbers to back my overall feeling, many people there I had the occasion to chat with found Thresher to be "OP as f***" and more generally farmers to be a "NPE")

 

EDIT: I totally agree that SFG are right to take their time for the eventual nerf and not rush it. Tuning a game like GB must be really hard and the most trivial modification can have an impact on the meta.

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Hi!

French talking here :)

We just had our WTC qualification week end (7 round event) (http://longshanks.org/events/?event=804)
The event was a team tournament in the WTC fashion (3 player team tournament).

There, Thresher mainly lost to Engineers.

Thresher stats :

Wins (15):
7 Engineers
1 Alchimist
1 Union
2 Farmer
2 Fishermen
1 Masons
1 Butcher

Defeats (5) :
4 Engineer
1 Brewer

Several farmers were paired against farmers.

The overall feeling was that Thresher was too powerful. I know feelings about that kind of stuff aren't the most accurate, but I thought it was worth mentionning the feedback of the french community :)

 

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I hope that SFG will be judicious (they seem to be taking that route) in their adjustments to the Farmers.  Some of the people posting in this thread seem to want to retune the whole team!

To my mind, the correct answer is to proceed slowly, making one change at a time until you get where you need to be.  It would be very easy to knee-jerk this and drop the Farmers not only in line with other teams, but below many of them.

I've been having a lot of fun playing Farmers, but have never played any of Thresher, Millstone, Fallow, Ploughman, or Buckwheat (basically, I've played the original box plus Tater, but I've got about thirty games or so with that lineup, so I've got a pretty good sample size on what they're capable of).  They're good, but I don't feel that group is overtuned.  I'd hate to see SFG take the nerf bat to the guild so hard that they stop being fun to play.  There's a middle ground where everybody has fun, and it's important to find it!

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47 minutes ago, Fish-in-a-Beer said:

I hope that SFG will be judicious (they seem to be taking that route) in their adjustments to the Farmers.  Some of the people posting in this thread seem to want to retune the whole team!

To my mind, the correct answer is to proceed slowly, making one change at a time until you get where you need to be.  It would be very easy to knee-jerk this and drop the Farmers not only in line with other teams, but below many of them.

I've been having a lot of fun playing Farmers, but have never played any of Thresher, Millstone, Fallow, Ploughman, or Buckwheat (basically, I've played the original box plus Tater, but I've got about thirty games or so with that lineup, so I've got a pretty good sample size on what they're capable of).  They're good, but I don't feel that group is overtuned.  I'd hate to see SFG take the nerf bat to the guild so hard that they stop being fun to play.  There's a middle ground where everybody has fun, and it's important to find it!

To be fair, you've not played with 3 of the problematic members of the team. Thresher combined with Tater and Millstone is ludicrously overtuned, and it takes just a single game playing them to go "oh, yeah, I see why this needs to be nerfed..."

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You're right; I don't have much table time with Thresher and Millstone (only just got them, and want to get them painted up before I give them a spin).  The one I can speak to is Tater- I've played a lot with Tater in the Grange lineup, and he's good, but without Millstone and Thresher, I don't think he's too good.  Some games, he's a star, other days just a deterrent piece- which is exactly where I think he should be, balance-wise.

All I'm saying is that I hope they'll make one or two changes at a time, slow and steady, until they find the right spot.  I would hate to see the team drop from "some of these players are clearly overtuned" to "this guild really has problems" as a result of nerfs.  There's a sweet spot- I think how SFG handled Shark is a pretty good example of getting this right. =)

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