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Wild Rose

Idea for Thresher Change

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I've been watching this thread for a while now, and whenever I've posted on it I have largely tried to sit on a pretty wobbly fence. I had a couple of games last night with a long-time GB buddy of mine who, like me, has been playing since retail release.

He played Thresher quite a bit over the SCUK weekend and I've played him a bit as a proxy before the box came out. Neither of us, though, has played much against him.

We had a really good chat through some of our thoughts about him and I think I've decided which side of the fence to come down on.

I created a bit of a ruckus in the early days S3, complaining about shark and Midas, and I hope i learned a bit from playing Fillet a lot in S2. I believe I know what the problem is here, and I don't think it's about the power level of Thresher.

The game is pretty well balanced. Even in the dark days of S2 fillet and Obulus, and pre-errata shark and Midas, the guild choice never really overrode the rule that the better player wins.

That said, all of the above 4 models were a problem and needed a nerf. The reason is that they don't give your opponent the ability to interact with or do very much about preventing them from doing their thing. I think this was probably worse in S2 when Obulus and fillet would just prevent you from spending a ton of INF each turn, as opposed to Shark and Midas who just score a goal, but the lack of interaction, I believe, is the source of negative experiences in your opponent.

I think, therefore, there are two main changes I'd like to see implemented:

1. You can make a counter attack against an enemy model that is engaging you, both of you are not also engaging it, it gains +1 DEF. (This one will new to be in the S4 core rules, and possibly need a buff to some other models to compensate, but I think it will be for the good of the game overall if it happens)

2. Take One For the Team becomes a once per turn ability, and the range is reduced to 4".

The 3" melee zone being impossible to interact with, and the repeated use of T1ftT to prevent KDs and other condition play is another big thing that stops you doing things to limit Thresher.

I would also suggest the following change Thresher, not particularly for power balance reasons, but because I don't think the joint-longest base threat range of any captain the game should be an old man. I'd drop him to 4/7 MOV.

The problem isn't whether he is OP, it's that his ability to do his stuff without any reply from the opponent is NPE.

Cheerio,

Ben

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*chuckle* guys, I’m definitely no avatar for pro play - I can’t stay with any guild long enough and I’m strictly just an amateur. Don’t use me as a yard stick on beatability of Thresher! 🙂

I made many mistakes (partly as my fourth game with Thresher) and in hindsight I would do it all differently. I didn’t choose Millstone so much as Henry did because I let him kick. I was so worried about giving a football team the ball. I think I should have kicked, controlled the game through Thresher momentum and then put the ball somewhere Brisket can’t get it back. Or just received and dropped the ball and ignored it. Not sure (I was also pretty annoyed at a terrible Plot Card draw-I really hate random draw). Lack of practice against Brisket3 and Thresher caused me to make too many mistakes. Like any team you need to get practice in to win big tables. And besides, I lost to the event winner - not too shabby! Henry was the better player and GB rewarded him - sign of a good game.

Millstone’s allround too goodness combined with Reapers passive abilities not removing markers and triggering from too far away are my issues. The 4” means positioning markers is less relevant - odd in an positional game. Thresher is just the embodiment of the Farmers abilities working together. His 3” no interaction is questionable- like Ben i’d like to see an end to simply not being able to respond to longer reaches as it makes melee range an ever escalating conflict (you’ve got all 2”? Well I’ve got 3”! Well I’ve got 6”....). Not sure on the answer but my view was maybe a 1” advance directly towards your attacker after each attack if still engaged - allows dodge away still.

But then there’s a few rules I’d want to change in S4 ( cough target dice pool & TN when super engaged cough). 

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16 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

I would also suggest the following change Thresher, not particularly for power balance reasons, but because I don't think the joint-longest base threat range of any captain the game should be an old man. I'd drop him to 4/7 MOV.

What are you talking about?

(Dude even looks like Thresher...)

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On 8.12.2017 at 9:03 AM, malladin.ben said:

lack of interaction

This is basically the main problem he produces. Against 2" melee range you still might have something. So far only Ghast and Hearth seem to be able to do something about Thresher though, Ghast with his passive mode of stealing an additional Influence of the only five he can have. But aside from that? Gluttonous Mass and Sturdy give you something as well, but in the end there is still no real interaction aside from Hearth during legendary, and the lack of interaction is what made the Morticians getting nerfed (besides other points ofc). Corsair might be one of the best because Thresher can't just tackle and KD him. That is 4 Influence on ANY model, Thresher as well. So if we say he has the ball the only real models being able to passively defend are the ones ignoring KD or attacks in general, so Clone, Sturdy, Glutt Mass are the way to go. Morticians are pretty "happy" about Thresher because their "slippery models" just get killed without any repercussion because the few passive abilities we have just don't trigger. :D 

One of the problems I personally had was that the Morticians also have none of the above, no Glut Mass, no Sturdy, no Close Control, no Countercharge, nothing. Literally no ability to use against him aside from Shutout, but we all know how good that works when you really need it (Curse you, dice gods!). ;) 
Ghast seems to be the only other viable choice. Can't speak for other Guilds, but our Farmer Player started out with repeated 12  Nil in round about the 2nd round.

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So we had a tournament today. For the first time we split the participants in two according to Longshanks ranking points. (The idea behind this was to be able to finish with 3 rounds. The Major/Minor league split also helped to arrange more equal games regarding player skills and last but not least we had two winners in this way.)

Before today I polled the meta in advance whether or not I should bring Thresher. They said bring it on and so I did. I won by 12-4, 12-0, 12-0 even with a missed 4 dice goal, a missed 3 dice tap-in and I could even get away with a huge mistake in one of the games by letting UM trigger on Greyscales. To be fair, I'm the highest ranked player around and I won a few events before with Masons. However I consider one player roughly equal to my skills and another 4-5 who could give me hard games, all of them played in this higher bracket. The ease I could destroy my opponents was frightening and not fun for anyone. In order not to dishearten the guys even more I decided not to bring him to domestic tournaments until a patch comes.

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