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      Tales of Infamy   12/13/2017

      Looking for more Guild Ball content? Just in the last week we've had new episodes of Singled Out, Double Dodge, Strictly the Worst and Don't Touch the Beard, as well as blogs from ForestRambo and MidwestWargaming! Check out Tales of Infamy in the Guild Ball section
Wild Rose

Idea for Thresher Change

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I've played against them twice (once as fish, once as smiths), and I enjoyed the first immensely, the second one not so much. Tater just takes any fun out of a game for me! After this thread, I'm not enjoying the prospect of playing against them again. I've yet to face Thresher so I suppose I have that to look forward to in every single farmer line up. 

For me they're just far too efficient. I don't mind if a team can play ball as well as it can wreck face, or purely excel at either, but it has to be a struggle/risk to get to do what you want to do, when you want to do it. Farmers don't really seem to worry about Influence at all, get free Inf every turn, and can churn out MOM like it's nothing. 

Edited by Lee
clarification

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And don’t forget that on Saturday none of Alex’s team was painted - to play in the final he needed a fully painted team. He mentions in the interview that only taking 8 players allowed him to get some extra sleep 😅

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1 hour ago, Jon Bucket said:

And don’t forget that on Saturday none of Alex’s team was painted - to play in the final he needed a fully painted team. He mentions in the interview that only taking 8 players allowed him to get some extra sleep 😅

I still find it a little sickening he got eight painted that quick *and* plays like a demon :P

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58 minutes ago, Mako said:

I still find it a little sickening he got eight painted that quick *and* plays like a demon :P

Haha, I wish I could claim this achievement but Vince and Shane lent me most of the models I needed so I only had to paint two Saturday night. I'm a fraud! :P

On the thread's topic, I hope it came across in the interview that I don't think Thresher is unbeatable, just a bit above the curve. I'd personally hate to see people feeling totally helpless, even if a nerf is coming it is still worth learning to play with and against Thresher in his team's current state. And, as food for thought, Tim W and Chris Metz are both pretty convinced that Grange will be discovered as clearly the better Farmers captain choice at top levels of play after a few months of experience. I'm not sure I agree, but it's worth noting that not all top players are in agreement as to Thresher's team's power level or the requirement of a change. Thanks everybody for the kind words, regardless :)

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There's a ton of hyperbole in this thread with everyone going insane and most of the posters not even having played Thresher. There's a lot of hyperbole including claims that Farmers have a low skill floor and that anybody could do what Botts did at worlds.

I can see Thresher needing a change, I could even see slightly changing millstone and harrow so they need to be a little bit closer for their Auras, but I'm extremely skeptical its so dire that Steamforged needs to rush and do it immediately. Let them take their time and handle it. 
 

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5 minutes ago, Mr.G said:

There's a ton of hyperbole in this thread with everyone going insane and most of the posters not even having played Thresher. There's a lot of hyperbole including claims that Farmers have a low skill floor and that anybody could do what Botts did at worlds.

I can see Thresher needing a change, I could even see slightly changing millstone and harrow so they need to be a little bit closer for their Auras, but I'm extremely skeptical its so dire that Steamforged needs to rush and do it immediately. Let them take their time and handle it. 
 

What evidence do you have that most haven't even played with / against Thresher? Looking at forum names who have responded I'd say a good 80% of the replies have been people I know have played with or against Thresher. 

I don't disagree with your statement completely but blindly saying "People haven't even played against Thresher yet" is jsut wrong. 

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FYI when I said Farmers have a low skill floor I didn't mean that winning Worlds was trivial. What I was saying is that they have a lot of anti-tech that really helps a starting player - counter charge, 3" melee, immunity to conditions, lots of hit points etc. They are a very easy guild to get into even with the harvest marker mechanic. And they will do well 'out of the box'. This is to contrast Hunters - which are a nightmare out of the box (and also have markers).

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4 minutes ago, ForestRambo said:

What evidence do you have that most haven't even played with / against Thresher? Looking at forum names who have responded I'd say a good 80% of the replies have been people I know have played with or against Thresher. 

I don't disagree with your statement completely but blindly saying "People haven't even played against Thresher yet" is jsut wrong. 

While I don't have a scientific study backing up that most people havent played against thresher. Its not a stretch to say that most people havent played agaisnt a model that isnt widely available yet. Even less have played with his full "team" that had millstone backing him up. Its still to early to say something about the whole group and I don't see why Steamforged needs to rush and do something immediately like the sky is falling. 

 

1 minute ago, EpicChris said:

FYI when I said Farmers have a low skill floor I didn't mean that winning Worlds was trivial. What I was saying is that they have a lot of anti-tech that really helps a starting player - counter charge, 3" melee, immunity to conditions, lots of hit points etc. They are a very easy guild to get into even with the harvest marker mechanic. And they will do well 'out of the box'. This is to contrast Hunters - which are a nightmare out of the box (and also have markers).

I really disagree with this. I think Farmers have lots of rules, place a lot of emphasis on order of activations, and placement with Harvest Markers that make them less friendly than other guilds to pickup especially to people who are brand new to the game. That's on top of the bad defensive stats (although lots of health and Harrow and Millstone make this more palpable). Hunters arent easy to play either, but just because they might be more difficult to pick up than Farmers doesn't mean that Farmers are especially new player friendly. 

 

I have a suspicion (although its not more than that because I havent tested it extensively) that farmers are probably stronger when playing a control / denial set up with Fallow and Grange denying the opponents any favorable combat at all. 

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I can assure you I have played with and against them. :)

We can disagree - every post I ever make is automatically prefaced with 'In My Opinion' such that I never write it (and possibly should). But I do think if I was ranking the Guilds in ease of playing & winning from having never played before against other new starting players, Farmers would feature high. That is a purely arbitrary metric, and all I was saying is that Farmers facilitate wins quicker than say Hunters or Engineers.They wear their anti-tech on their sleeves more than other guilds.

[EDIT] To be 100% clear I was never commenting on what Alex did - he did well because he is a fantastic player (world no1 now?) and some of the concern over Farmers has been conflated with that win incorrectly. I think (and I think Alex has said as much) Thresher Farmers have some built in advantages and at top tables he leveraged those to win his fights for sure, but noone gave him those wins! He bloody earned them!

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I liked Alex's comments a lot in his interview (to be fair, I'm also a big fan of Strictly the Worst, so that probably shouldn't have been a surprise to me).

I hope that SFG will be judicious in their errata.  It would be easy to jump on making a bunch of changes, but if they do decide to make alterations, I hope they do so at a measured pace- make a single change (two at most), see how it plays out, then reevaluate.

I'm afraid that what's coming is an across the board nerf that will slap much of the team (a team that does need to have powerful abilities to compensate for their terrible defensive stats- where that balance falls is the trick) and make them a lot less fun to see on the table, either to play with or against.

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10 minutes ago, Fish-in-a-Beer said:

I liked Alex's comments a lot in his interview (to be fair, I'm also a big fan of Strictly the Worst, so that probably shouldn't have been a surprise to me).

I hope that SFG will be judicious in their errata.  It would be easy to jump on making a bunch of changes, but if they do decide to make alterations, I hope they do so at a measured pace- make a single change (two at most), see how it plays out, then reevaluate.

I'm afraid that what's coming is an across the board nerf that will slap much of the team (a team that does need to have powerful abilities to compensate for their terrible defensive stats- where that balance falls is the trick) and make them a lot less fun to see on the table, either to play with or against.

I 100% agree here by the way. I don't want to see some knee-jerk either. I also don't want a Season 4 fix (1 year). And I have no idea how they will unpick this as I actually think the individual components are powerful but ok. It's not as easy here as fixing Obulus and I expect we'll just see small, measured tweaks.

Or we may not. Thresher might well be working 'as intended'. I speak only as a player and I know not the direction the wind blows. But I feel in my bones something will be done. Too many top players (people who I respect and are far better at this game than I) have come down on Team Nerf for SFG to ignore it. Whether the other top players on Team GitGud prevail - who knows. But I'm in Iron Man's team - Team Nerf. :)

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1 hour ago, Mr.G said:

While I don't have a scientific study backing up that most people havent played against thresher. Its not a stretch to say that most people havent played agaisnt a model that isnt widely available yet. Even less have played with his full "team" that had millstone backing him up. Its still to early to say something about the whole group and I don't see why Steamforged needs to rush and do something immediately like the sky is falling. 

You do know that proxies and vassal exists, right? ;) The rules have been up since April I think, plenty of time to do some testing.

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4 minutes ago, Edek said:

You do know that proxies and vassal exists, right? ;) The rules have been up since April I think, plenty of time to do some testing.

Of course. However, as @Mr.G said

1 hour ago, Mr.G said:

Its not a stretch to say that most people havent played agaisnt a model that isnt widely available yet.

 

He didn't say anyone had. He just said most people haven't yet faced Thresher.

And fewer still have played against Thresher in competent hands...

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19 minutes ago, Edek said:

You do know that proxies and vassal exists, right? ;) The rules have been up since April I think, plenty of time to do some testing.

If youre whole contribution to the discussion is to try and pick apart semantics of what I said then why did you bother to comment? Are you really saying the vast majority of players use vassal and proxies on models that aren't out yet? I don't understand how it relates to the topic at hand at all unless you are just trying to troll. Or is this normal for the guildball community to have new members to the forums comments constantly ridiculed. it's certainly been my experience so far. 

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7 hours ago, ForestRambo said:

 I think something can't be overlooked and speaks to just how strong Thresher is right now - Alex only took Thresher (I think the only solo captain roster of worlds?). To the pinnacle of all gaming in Guildball alex viewed Thresher as so good that even if the opponent knew he was playing him, as well as his line up almost, that didn't matter and Thresher was good enough to win the match ups. 

I don't think any captain should be so good to say - Here's what I bring. I don't care what you draft against it, I'm good enough to win anyway. 

In his interview he states that it's more that Grange is so bad kicking coupled with the necessity to have a fully painted roster that led to him only having 8 in the lineup.

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@Mr.G

I think what he meant is that Thresher is out for a while now and everyone who wnated could have easily getten hands on him. I faced him aswell already and he's a nightmare. One of the biggest issue is that there is no way to do anything about him during activation. No defensiv Tec is helping you out. Usually you have Sturdy to get a Counterattack in, just like Stoic. Or unpredictable movement to get away. Nothing works against him. And in combination with Tater? Tater has non downsides. Literally. None. 

The "Axis of evil" Millstone, Thresher and Tater is just purely insane and you can't punch through it. 

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Guys, chill I even added a ;) to show that it's not to be taken too seriously. Here in Poland, the two most active communities seem to have been playing farmer a lot and Tresher especially. For me, it was rather obvious that people had a few with/against Tresher and a had a grasp of how he works. It is a fact that the rules for him are up since April and I just as well may say it's not a stretch that most people were curious about the new models (which have rather unique mechanics). I have played many games against Tresher's team and also played a few with him for example.

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You know I sometimes wonder if SFG don't just do actions like Thresher to entertain themselves on these boards...

I think we've reached a natural conclusion with Thresher, partly because many players still don't have him in their meta and partly because many players haven't practiced enough with him (I know I fell apart owing to lack of practice at Steamcon) so any conclusion is bound to appear a little knee-jerky.

I think we all agree that SFG need to look at him again, if only to say 'working as intended' or to make a slight change. Noone wants Farmers crippled. Thresher and his team represent a difficult and fascinating problem to balance. I think I can see where they might start but we'll see. As long as we don't have to wait too long then everything is roses.

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2 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

I think I can see where they might start but we'll see

I'm curious. Share your thoughts with us. :) 

2 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

You know I sometimes wonder if SFG don't just do actions like Thresher to entertain themselves on these boards..

That sounds just too much like me, and I got a lot of warning points. :D 

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I think the BIG test is - give me that team to have a few games with. Then we'll see just how ordinary they all are.

If I actually win these games? Well, then they're clearly in need of a huge revision! 

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