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Idea for Thresher Change

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23 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

2: using their 'passive' abilities doesn't use up markers so you get counter charge and poised off the same marker which seems a little good. And can then eat it for Don't Fear.

I think this is the biggest part of it right here. They provide almost too much utility. I think removing it to gain poised would be more balanced. I think I like Tater not removing it on his counter charge since he can wind up trampling it and removing it himself anyway.

Millstone is rough. Absolutely top tier model. She does so much with so little and brings above average INF with the ability to drop HMs. I don't think there is any way she makes it through an errata with Take One for the Team still being a 6" bubble. My bet is it goes down to a 4" or even 3".

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I think my biggest problem is not that Thresher is OP or anything but that Farmers are basically 'solved' at the moment. Thresher,Buckwheat, Millstone, Harrow, Jackstraw Tater is going to be the 6 everyone takes because several of those models are clearly 'above the curve'. I mean Buckwheat is basically a player - he's ridiculous. 20" built in scoring threat?!? Hunters don't even that on their strikers!

This is in contrast to Blacksmiths who are a fascinating puzzlebox with no obvious lineup. I'm sure a team will rise to the top one day but Threshers team took 1 day...shame. 

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So I think the Farmers are pretty overtuned. It's VERY similiar to Midas, Naja, oKat, Vitriol, Compound and Harry. A team full of overtuned players, as @EpicChrisThresher, Buckwheat, Tater, Millstone, Harrow & Jackstraw. Buckwheat, Thresher, Tater AND Millstone all just have SO many rules, with everyone single one being very good. 

Like let's look at Millstone, she's a planter. So she supports the team, cool! Providing the Harvest marker - makes sense. Providing condition support for the team, I like that. It's like her unique planter rule - Harrow has tooled up, Millstone provides condtion support - cool! Oh, she can also push people 2" to extend the threat of her team. Well this is a pretty huge deal, but I guess if we stop here she'd just be a valuable support model and be pretty damn good.

She can also make someone a goalie? Like what, why? Why does she now need a third excellent rule that puts her above and beyond what most support models do in the game. 

OH and she has momentous 1,2 & 3 damage on a shortish playbook in a team that 0 problems getting Ganging Up in play. Like, COME ON? Why does the excellent, all rounder support model which does everything you could want in a model (Condition coverage, plant a harvest marker, extend threat range and provide a goal keeper if needed) then get a playbook like that? 

I am ignoring her weaknesses - she has no armor. Just kidding, she has 2.  The only real weakness of the farmers is have they have little armor but is compensated by having inflated health pools. I've actually got both the Farmers boxes right now but I won't be using them as I think they will see a errata at the very latest season 4. 

Not to mention the above team starts on 12 influence, BEFORE you place any harvest markers / reap any. Yeah, I could write about my thoughts on this for a long while... 

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12 minutes ago, ForestRambo said:

...a lot of words...

 

What this guy said. Exactly. Thresher is OP. Maybe not in his glorious selfishness but as the crown jewel of a superhero team. (Or maybe he is the flagship and the crown jewel is Millstone.) You can try to give some tactics but the truth is that nothing I heard hear or elsewhere will work against a competent player. The farmers are just too good for that. (I feel the best chance against them is a heavy control team like Obulus but unfortunately not many guilds have so strong options in that field.)

Looking forward to the next errata.

PS: I have Farmers and played 20+ games with or against Thresher. Would like to field them more but currently they (=the Thresher super 6) feel like cheating.

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I think there will be a meta shift which isnt a bad thing as a shake up can be good.

Ive played 2 games with thresher and actually prefer a different 6 to the standard line up. For instance no harrow and i played a 10inf line up!

 

Thresher is good but spreading players out means he can only go after one and hes also then out of his support area. They also don't counter score that fast depending on the line up

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7 hours ago, Stephen78 said:

Thresher is good but spreading players out means he can only go after one and hes also then out of his support area. They also don't counter score that fast depending on the line up

That's what I'd say - Guild Ball is a flexible game of options. You can't play one playstyle into every team and captain. If one doesn't work, try another. Go high DEF, high speed, maximise dodges, make it hard for them to get to you. Use control abilities to restrict their movement/power. Destroy the harvest tokens. Distract Thresher with a sacrificial lamb who pulls him out of position. Ignore him and smash his support (Harrow is very squishy, Tater isn't that hard to kill either). Same as you'd play against Fillet, or vRage, or Hammer, or any other brawler.

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19 hours ago, ForestRambo said:

So I think the Farmers are pretty overtuned. It's VERY similiar to Midas, Naja, oKat, Vitriol, Compound and Harry. A team full of overtuned players, as @EpicChrisThresher, Buckwheat, Tater, Millstone, Harrow & Jackstraw. Buckwheat, Thresher, Tater AND Millstone all just have SO many rules, with everyone single one being very good.

I've been mulling this about, honestly I'd like more players for all guilds to be like Millstone.

We have our Meathook's and Graves's, but each guild has too many short-sticks. I mean, don't get me wrong the Farmers/Smiths do too, but I think it's pretty fair to say they have less weaklinks overall. They seem to be designed with satisfying and unique play first.

In most guilds, for every All-Star there's probably one rule on their card that could go without anyone losing sleep. Sanguine Pool comes to mind.

But I'd much prefer to have a difficult time choosing which amazing players to field than picking some all-stars and a smattering of guys who just kinda meander around whether they have influence or not. By the looks of it the Blacksmiths will have exactly that problem and I'm happy for them.

I think if the Farmer's are above the curve then the curve should be brought up.

Power Creep is dangerous but it can also be pretty damned fun if managed correctly. It could end up being a organic way to shorten game times if that's an aim, and if models are sufficiently powerful/satisfying then perhaps there'll be an added degree of agency to losing games that may make them more palatable.

Of course there are the models who do their jobs without fault every time, like Velocity who I don't think need to be touched if you were to apply this philosophy, and others who often need to jump through a few too many hoops to get satisfying results like Salvo who I think stand to benefit the most from it.

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After all my whining, I played against Thresher last night and won 12-7. 

100& spreading out was a big deal, as well as forcing him to charge so he couldn't affectively one round a player. As @Stephen78 said once he's missiled in you can then collapse and remove and then the next problem model (most likely tater). I think you have to treat him similar to hammer, accept he will nearly delete a player / delete one on legendary turn and play accordingly. 

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1 hour ago, ForestRambo said:

After all my whining, I played against Thresher last night and won 12-7. 

100& spreading out was a big deal, as well as forcing him to charge so he couldn't affectively one round a player. As @Stephen78 said once he's missiled in you can then collapse and remove and then the next problem model (most likely tater). I think you have to treat him similar to hammer, accept he will nearly delete a player / delete one on legendary turn and play accordingly. 

Probably we should define terms. When I said Thresher and his gang is OP I did not mean that he is unbeatable. Thanks God GB is a very finely balanced game and the games are mostly decided by the difference of the players' skill level (and occasionally by horrible/extraordinary dice rolls). A Class A player will most probably take down a Class B opponent no matter what guilds are put on the table. So under OP I mean that in a game between similarly good players I would bet on the one that brings Thresher and I'm sure I'd not lose money the long run. :) 

I really liked your previous Midas comparison because I think we are in the exact same spot here. You could definitely win against Midas but they were so good that you had to fight an uphill battle. SFG saw that and took appropriate measures. I'm quite positive about this will also happen here eventually.

And about the counterplay tips: spreading out is indeed a viable plan but I have a hard time imagine that on the board where you need to place 6 models in a roughly 2"x2" territory since there is rarely a benefit to move behind the goallines and if you wander too close to the sidelines you make yourself vulnerable to push out TOs (Hello, Donkey!). According to my actual play experience Thresher has a HUGE threat range so he can quite easily hop from one target to another without losing any tempo. The opponent simply can't stretch itself wide enough without giving up any kind of counterplay. Also this plan sharply contradicts with other frequently mentioned solutions like trample through the markers or take out a certain key model. Not to mention the task to get the ball back from Threshers' gang in case you would like to score some actual VPs and not just playing for outclocking your opponent.

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I will reiterate that it is way too early to be crying OP and talking about changing models before they've seen general release.  The second half of Farmers, as I understand it, isn't even tourney legal (outside of the SteamCons) until it hits the retail shelves in January.  Give it a few months after that and we'll see.

I think Farmers are very strong if you let them play their game.  If you can break them up (and this requires, sometimes, a different playstyle than the ones people want to play or are used to), they have definite weaknesses.  Farmers aren't, to my mind, "solved" yet, because the other factions haven't figured out how to counterplay them effectively yet.  Once that happens, it may to some extent both change what gets played in those other guilds (and how) and what Farmers bring in response.

Adding a whole new guild to the game is a major meta shake-up that has happened only once before since the original release (and now once since, with Blacksmiths).  People are not going to be able to keep playing the same old Guild Ball and expect to beat them easily or even at 50/50.  Adaptation will be necessary, and I think once we've had a few months of that, then we can better assess if they're OP and need to be altered or if they're fine the way they are and people just need to figure them out.

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2 Thresher teams in national finals.... time to say OP yet? I understand they haven’t been released, but I can’t help but feel this is exactly the witch hunt that happened with Obulus. (Maybe not exactly but close)

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1 hour ago, DeathlyDrew said:

2 Thresher teams in national finals.... time to say OP yet? I understand they haven’t been released, but I can’t help but feel this is exactly the witch hunt that happened with Obulus. (Maybe not exactly but close)

American National finals. What finals had the double Obulous? American National finals. Hmmm, patterns, coincidences, metas, playstyles...

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2 hours ago, DeathlyDrew said:

2 Thresher teams in national finals.... time to say OP yet? I understand they haven’t been released, but I can’t help but feel this is exactly the witch hunt that happened with Obulus. (Maybe not exactly but close)

 

42 minutes ago, S_A_T_S said:

American National finals. What finals had the double Obulous? American National finals. Hmmm, patterns, coincidences, metas, playstyles...

 

I think it's way too soon to be crying "OP" and begging for a ban hammer.. it just happens that Thresher counters the two biggest teams currently being used in the competitive meta, that being Masons (primarily Hammer) and vRage Union..

When S3 came out everyone was afraid of Fish and Alchemists, so the meta switched to people taking Engineers at this years Vengeance to counter those.. After the errata people were less scared of Shark and Midas so Engineers fell off and Masons became the go to team due to their competitive flexibility built within their roster..

With Farmers and Blacksmiths recently released I think we will see people going back to a more condition and control playstyle that takes advantage of their low defense values such as Smoke Alchemists, Ballista Engineers and maybe even a rise of competitive Hunters...

If Thresher is still the number one captain come Vengeance 2k18, then it may be time to start looking at rebalancing certain players, but for now it really is too early to say..

 

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11 hours ago, Redmaw said:

 

I think it's way too soon to be crying "OP" and begging for a ban hammer.. it just happens that Thresher counters the two biggest teams currently being used in the competitive meta, that being Masons (primarily Hammer) and vRage Union..

When S3 came out everyone was afraid of Fish and Alchemists, so the meta switched to people taking Engineers at this years Vengeance to counter those.. After the errata people were less scared of Shark and Midas so Engineers fell off and Masons became the go to team due to their competitive flexibility built within their roster..

With Farmers and Blacksmiths recently released I think we will see people going back to a more condition and control playstyle that takes advantage of their low defense values such as Smoke Alchemists, Ballista Engineers and maybe even a rise of competitive Hunters...

If Thresher is still the number one captain come Vengeance 2k18, then it may be time to start looking at rebalancing certain players, but for now it really is too early to say..

 

Couldn't agree more. 

 

He requires some adjustment but people are crying against all the farmers. 

Buckwheat , millstone ... give time guys ! Let's see what happens ! 

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Today’s championship sealed the deal for me. Two top players and Farmers made it look like the Hunter had no idea how to play. Hats off to Alex for solid play, but no championship table should be lost  on a single bad dice roll on a charge on turn 2. I hope it’s changed before Adepticon or I may drop out. No point in having a bad time playing a team that is broken.

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8 hours ago, Rvianarpg said:

He requires some adjustment but people are crying against all the farmers. 

Buckwheat , millstone ... give time guys ! Let's see what happens ! 

It's hard not to see how incredible buckwheat is :P 20" goal threat with a 2Dice kick, free attacks, able to attack models with UM. Sounds good. Even better since it's a mascot :P:P:P

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40 minutes ago, DeathlyDrew said:

Today’s championship sealed the deal for me. Two top players and Farmers made it look like the Hunter had no idea how to play. Hats off to Alex for solid play, but no championship table should be lost  on a single bad dice roll on a charge on turn 2. I hope it’s changed before Adepticon or I may drop out. No point in having a bad time playing a team that is broken.

Does a single international competition you didn't take part in affect how you enjoy games you personally are playing? For me, I don't care how Alex Botts and Shane Wattie play their Farmers, I only care how my opponents play theirs (if they are even playing theirs).

Luckily, Guild Ball isn't like Magic - you won't turn up at an event and find 90+% of the player using the same 2 lists. There will always be variety and personal choice and playstyle in how people play this game, and some see the fun in the challenge of taking down the hearty beast.

If you only 'enjoy' a game when you are winning and beating everyone you meet, and are convinced Farmers beat everyone, just play Farmers yourself. Everyone else can just enjoy playing their way. Just make sure for the sake of the people you play against you are a gracious winner/loser (if by some catastrophe of dice your Farmers lose - even if you don't believe that's possible, dice can run cold), and you make sure your opponent is enjoying at least some of the game, because I think most of us play this game to have fun and meet up with people, regardless of whether we win or lose.

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59 minutes ago, DeathlyDrew said:

Today’s championship sealed the deal for me. Two top players and Farmers made it look like the Hunter had no idea how to play. Hats off to Alex for solid play, but no championship table should be lost  on a single bad dice roll on a charge on turn 2. I hope it’s changed before Adepticon or I may drop out. No point in having a bad time playing a team that is broken.

Two highly ranked players forgot or didn’t spot counter charge on Tater. At a top table, one mistake like that can easily cost you a game.

I think Farmers are very good, but I also think the answers are out there - it will just take a bit of time to get used to them and work them out. 

Also people are being disingenuous to Alex, he has been playing Farmers for months, he is a very good player, and he played incredibly tight all weekend (and over a gruelling schedule) - he is a very worthy winner.  

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I’m just sticking my head in to make sure everyone plays nice. This kind of topic can easily get fractious so, y’know, go easy.

(I don’t want to have to actually do any mod work, I’m feeling lazy ;) )

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1 minute ago, Jon Bucket said:

Also people are being disingenuous to Alex, he has been playing Farmers for months, he is a very good player, and he played incredibly tight all weekend (and over a gruelling schedule) - he is a very worthy winner.  

I don't think anyone can argue against this. @Slothrop played like a beast all weekend, every streamed game he was in was in fact worryingly depressing to watch - even to the point where the German champ conceded the semi-final while being down 0-5 because he could see the writing on the wall.

More in line with the thread, Botts had identified that Thresher Farmers were ballbusting from the get go, releases hours of discussion about why Thresher is so good, how his team works around him, how you can possibly beat him - then went out and demonstrated it. The only game he lost all weekend was against another Thresher player (who himself was undefeated outside playing against Thresher). 
Pete Williamson, Kiwi Wargaming Legend who played vs Botts in the final, only lost 2 games in the SC UK qualifiers - both 0 -12 against Thresher.

All Hail our Sun-Tanned Overlord Thresher, Father of Bryce, and His High Priest Alex "Some kind of Opinion Maker" Botts. 

 

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1 hour ago, S_A_T_S said:

Does a single international competition you didn't take part in affect how you enjoy games you personally are playing? For me, I don't care how Alex Botts and Shane Wattie play their Farmers, I only care how my opponents play theirs (if they are even playing theirs).

Luckily, Guild Ball isn't like Magic - you won't turn up at an event and find 90+% of the player using the same 2 lists. There will always be variety and personal choice and playstyle in how people play this game, and some see the fun in the challenge of taking down the hearty beast.

If you only 'enjoy' a game when you are winning and beating everyone you meet, and are convinced Farmers beat everyone, just play Farmers yourself. Everyone else can just enjoy playing their way. Just make sure for the sake of the people you play against you are a gracious winner/loser (if by some catastrophe of dice your Farmers lose - even if you don't believe that's possible, dice can run cold), and you make sure your opponent is enjoying at least some of the game, because I think most of us play this game to have fun and meet up with people, regardless of whether we win or lose.

It’s not about winning it’s about having a chance. It’s fun to go into a game saying hey I may win or have a close game. Thresher reminds me of when you’d line up against S3 Midas or Shark. One small error and it’s going to be a game where everything you do just makes it worse. There is a difference between a fun loss and a why did I even set up my team loss. I don’t want to take anything away from Alex you still have to play the game, but as a Morts player I remember choosing not to use Obs because it wasn’t an enjoyable experience for my opponent to know that he was an OP model that was going to win the game by being on the table.

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Is it really Thresher that is the problem or is it having probably two of the strongest models in the game in Tater and Millstone enabling him to do what he likes?

If we see a spike in the number of Farmer's players in the meta we should probably also see an increase in Honour Mason's, Corsair Fisherman's and Obulus Mortician's to counter it.

What we don't need is a knee-jerk 'nerf Thresher' witch hunt.

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