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Idea for Thresher Change

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played a game the other day with thresher and loved him. my opponent however didn't and though he was a bit over powered, which apparently is what most of the internet is saying as well. While I think he's not over powered and there are ways to play around him, It got me thinking on what I would do to tone him down a bit but still keep his play style and this is what I came up with.

its basically remove "Extended Reach" and change Crow scarer to "While this model is within [4"] of a friendly harvest-marker, this model melee zone is 3"."

this removes some of his defensiveness as he can no longer get a free counter attack while at the same time giving him the same play stye but just with more set up and allowing your opponent to remove the markers before he activates allowing for counter play. it also effects the range of his "don't fear the..." as if there is only one harvest marker with in 4' at the time when it gets removed his melee will shrink to 2" meaning if you want the most out of him 2 harvest markers need to be within 4" of him. It does give him a large control bubble as his parting blow range will be 3" if with in range of a harvest marker but that still has counter play.

I thought these where quit good changes that kept to his theme and design space but just toned him down and made him require more set to be the killing monster he is.

Please let me know your thoughts and what you think  would be a good change for him (not that he needs it).

cheers 

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I think people will get used to him being like Hammer, but with less damage and a longer stick.  Once they figure out how to control him and mitigate what he can do, they're going to have this problem.  A blind, pinned, gut and strung, any of those and Thresher loses his potency quite a bit.

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Totally agree any thing that controls were he can go or reduces his attack reduce his output a lot, especially since his play book doesn't really get going till the 4th column. Give him anything that reduces his Tac by 2 and he's going to struggle to get those high damage results. 

Like I said I don't think he needs a change this is just what I would do if he had to change. 

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No not most of the internet but a vocal minority complains about Thresher. The rest is occupied with looking how to interrupt the setup Thresher needs to do anything. You would be surprised how easy that is when having a look in the match reports. :P

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I've only played twice against Thresher now. I lost 12-10 (This game was crazy close) and 12-6 (This game went really bad).

The team is essentially Thresher & Tater with 4 support pieces. People need to learn how to shut down Thresher & Tater / how to play around a super-solo captain before looking to nerf Thresher. Playing against a captain like Thresher (Hammer is very similar) really does require you to play differently, allocate influence differently etc. 

Totally agree if on full release the team jumps to something like a 55-60% win rate after a good amount of data behind it, we should totally look at him then. Until then peoples first thought after losing a single game him shouldn't be how to change him and rather how to change how you play to adapt and overcome new models. 

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It's the Tater/Millstone/Thresher triangle that is difficult to work around.  It's similar to Brick and Marbles, but better in many ways.  The thing to get is Tater.  You can kill either Tater or Thresher if you want, but Tater is who you have to shut down.  Millstone works like a pseudo Sturdy, so you have to kind of treat it the same and take it on the chin.  Just be aware that if you give me an opportunity to clear it, I absolutely will.

  It's Tater though.  That countercharge is where the problems are and Thresher is nearly always within 4-5'' of Tater (Depending on who I think is coming) and 6'' of Millstone.  So you can't KD him, you'll get charged, and you'll get counter attacked.  If you can catch Tater with a Goad, Pinned or shut down his movement somehow, he's a lot less dangerous.  Goad is the best IMO since it's the most widely available (Marbles and more commonly, Harry).  Pinned is ok but expensive, and Theron doesn't really want Tater coming into him anyways.  Blind is an option too, but one I'll still probably chance at TAC8 (TAC5 - 2 for blind, + 4 for the charge, +1 because Thresher is engaging.  Maybe +2 more if Thresher's Legendary has happened).  Goad's really the best I think.  But Tater's the key.  This, of course, is ignoring everything the Morts can do since Silence and Obulus both cause a lot of problems for Farmers.  Siren also has Seduce, but Tater's a 5/0 into that so it's a bit chancier.  

  If you're not getting wrecked by Tater, then Thresher becomes considerably more feasible.  He's a 4/0 with basically sturdy and a guaranteed counter attack, but you still get the momentum for the KD, and you can use that to clear the KD he gives you back.  He's got the 1'' dodge, but as long as you base to base him, he can't get away, and then he's really just stuck and you can go to town.

  It's doable, but you have to unlock the puzzle first.  The rest of the team is crowding out probably or hanging around but it's Tater and Thresher doing work and Millstone keeping them viable.  

  Oh, hey, I remember the other Goad, it's Spigot2.  Everyone watch out for that guy. He's good now.

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There are even options that every team can do with Tater:
- Engage him
- Use your mascot to remove the necessary harvest marker
- Make sure he has no clear charging path (an even better one, make him kill harvest markers when doing the countercharge)
 

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29 minutes ago, Edek said:

Also, It's not just Tresher and Tater. It's also the donkey of doom which is absurd as a mascot.

 

If you look at each card individually, than yes you are right. But GB is a team sport with a lot of interaction and balances in the team. Not everything on the cards can be used together during a turn. For example if you want some use for your planters, one or two of those 3 will not have a lot of INF and will be idle in a turn. Tater and Thresher together fully geared with INF take 9 of your available 12 INF. Add the donkey and you are at 11 out of 12.

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53 minutes ago, Edek said:

Also, It's not just Tresher and Tater. It's also the donkey of doom which is absurd as a mascot.

Buckwheat is damn good. I have proxied him a few times and he is really strong. IMO he may not realistically put as many points on the board as a mascot like Salt but he is certainly utilitarian. Haha 2/8 kick on a mascot that also has momentous 3 damage is just silly. I'm not convinced he won't see a reduction to health/defense or damage within 6 months of release.

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8 hours ago, Edek said:

@Jedianakinsolo, how do you plan on throwing goad at Tater when the range is 6" and Counter Charge also is 6"?

 

Also, It's not just Tresher and Tater. It's also the donkey of doom which is absurd as a mascot.

In both cases, Tater either gives you loved creature or 2mp.  And you probably still goad him. Either tater stays put and hopes you miss or charges and at most kds you to avoid giving you benefits, at which point you stand up and goad him anyways.

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19 hours ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

It's the Tater/Millstone/Thresher triangle that is difficult to work around.  It's similar to Brick and Marbles, but better in many ways.  The thing to get is Tater.  You can kill either Tater or Thresher if you want, but Tater is who you have to shut down.  Millstone works like a pseudo Sturdy, so you have to kind of treat it the same and take it on the chin.  Just be aware that if you give me an opportunity to clear it, I absolutely will.

  It's Tater though.  That countercharge is where the problems are and Thresher is nearly always within 4-5'' of Tater (Depending on who I think is coming) and 6'' of Millstone.  So you can't KD him, you'll get charged, and you'll get counter attacked.  If you can catch Tater with a Goad, Pinned or shut down his movement somehow, he's a lot less dangerous.  Goad is the best IMO since it's the most widely available (Marbles and more commonly, Harry).  Pinned is ok but expensive, and Theron doesn't really want Tater coming into him anyways.  Blind is an option too, but one I'll still probably chance at TAC8 (TAC5 - 2 for blind, + 4 for the charge, +1 because Thresher is engaging.  Maybe +2 more if Thresher's Legendary has happened).  Goad's really the best I think.  But Tater's the key.  This, of course, is ignoring everything the Morts can do since Silence and Obulus both cause a lot of problems for Farmers.  Siren also has Seduce, but Tater's a 5/0 into that so it's a bit chancier.  

  If you're not getting wrecked by Tater, then Thresher becomes considerably more feasible.  He's a 4/0 with basically sturdy and a guaranteed counter attack, but you still get the momentum for the KD, and you can use that to clear the KD he gives you back.  He's got the 1'' dodge, but as long as you base to base him, he can't get away, and then he's really just stuck and you can go to town.

  It's doable, but you have to unlock the puzzle first.  The rest of the team is crowding out probably or hanging around but it's Tater and Thresher doing work and Millstone keeping them viable.  

  Oh, hey, I remember the other Goad, it's Spigot2.  Everyone watch out for that guy. He's good now.

This is all good advice. Thresher on his own is not a problem at all - I played a game last night with him without Tater or Millstone (Tournament Saturday allowing him, but not Tater!) and I lost to a player I can usually easily beat with most teams. He moaned a bit about Thresher when I was doing lots of damage with 'Don't Fear the...' and was ready to call it when he took out Honour + Marbles first activation of turn 1, but I pointed out I had basically no way to stop his Flint goal turn 1 and due to a low scatter on the kick out had no way to really stop him getting a second goal straight away... 

Without his support network, he's not the unstoppable monster some people seem to think. Disrupting the support is what players need to learn to do instead of just letting him play to his strengths, calling for nerds while ignoring his weaknesses...

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12 hours ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

In both cases, Tater either gives you loved creature or 2mp.  And you probably still goad him. Either tater stays put and hopes you miss or charges and at most kds you to avoid giving you benefits, at which point you stand up and goad him anyways.

Ok, so Tater charges Harry let's say thanks to counter-charge. Tater deals momentous dmg and +3dmg from character trait, so probably 5dmg and 1 mom. You gain 2 mom for rising anger, so in the end there is almost no change in the mom race (unless you bonus time the goad then there is none) and you lost 5HP. If he goes for mow down then he gets ahead in the mom race. Also there is an option he might engage someone apart from Harry and then it all goes to sh*t.

 

 

19 hours ago, alopex said:

For example if you want some use for your planters, one or two of those 3 will not have a lot of INF and will be idle in a turn. Tater and Thresher together fully geared with INF take 9 of your available 12 INF. Add the donkey and you are at 11 out of 12.

Come on, after the first turn this team always has more than 12 inf thanks to exchanging harvest markers for inf. And the donkey gets a lot done without even using inf. 

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21 minutes ago, Edek said:

Come on, after the first turn this team always has more than 12 inf thanks to exchanging harvest markers for inf. And the donkey gets a lot done without even using inf. 

Ok Buckwheat can... Jog without INF. When an opponent is cooperative and stands near a harvest marker without removing it first and Buckwheat can get on 1" from that model and within 2" from the harvest marker yeah then he can get a free attack otherwise he always needs INF to kick ass (pun intended :)

Yes indeed sometimes you get more than 12. If your opponent leave some, if you didn't use them in the previous round, if you don't leave them for the next round.

If I read some of the postings on the forum, the Farmers seem to be the new Avengers or so, nothing but superheroes. Luckely on the pitch I see something completely different. They have changes and strengths to win some games but they also have a lot of weaknesses to lose games and that is a good thing.

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31 minutes ago, Edek said:

 

Come on, after the first turn this team always has more than 12 inf thanks to exchanging harvest markers for inf. And the donkey gets a lot done without even using inf. 

This isn't that easy for even Thresher's ideal team actually - Millstone puts one out for free, and Harrow might get to put one out for free if your positioning is good - not too hard turn 1, progressively harder after that. All other Harvest Markers you generate have to be from spent influence at a 1-1 ratio (unless you get a crazy Harrow wrap I guess)...

Then you need to factor in wanting to remove them for active abilities like Don't fear the... and cropping as well as wanting to keep them for passive abilities like Fork off and Crow scarer- you aren't making enough to be getting a huge amount of extra influence from them...

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2 hours ago, Edek said:

Ok, so Tater charges Harry let's say thanks to counter-charge. Tater deals momentous dmg and +3dmg from character trait, so probably 5dmg and 1 mom. You gain 2 mom for rising anger, so in the end there is almost no change in the mom race (unless you bonus time the goad then there is none) and you lost 5HP. If he goes for mow down then he gets ahead in the mom race. Also there is an option he might engage someone apart from Harry and then it all goes to sh*t.

  Show us where Tater touched you, Edek.   Show someone at least.

  It's not about the Momentum race at that point.  If you're trying to get at Thresher, Tater's the roadblock.  If you don't want to get charged, then do it over cover.  Or goad him from an area that would force him to charge into multiple opponents.  A flat "Goad is 6'' and Countercharge is 6 so therefore Goad = bad" is not true at all.  Just like anything else in the game, it requires some counterplay.  We've been dealing with Countercharge on Brick forever, Marbles for awhile.  Tenderizer and Compound both have it situationally and we get things done.  Thresher's no different.

1 hour ago, FearLord said:

Then you need to factor in wanting to remove them for active abilities like Don't fear the... and cropping as well as wanting to keep them for passive abilities like Fork off and Crow scarer- you aren't making enough to be getting a huge amount of extra influence from them...

  Yeah, I've found the Thresher team runs thin on INF.  Sure, the harvest markers could help but I'm only getting 3 a turn unless I bring Harrow for a situational 4th.  I miiigggght get to pull one on the next turn, but more than likely, I need to leave a few down to keep Countercharge up, and either Poised or Don't Fear the Reaper on Thresher.  Maybe both.  It's going to take a couple of turns of buildup to get there, and even then, I might only keep up.  I won't ever get to the point where I have 5 on the board and Grange is like "Oh, sure, I guess I'll take 3 free INF this turn."

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It's way too early to be talking about changing models that aren't out yet.  People need to get some table time with them after the release and remember that just because you can't beat them easily right out of the box or because they pose a challenge for your favorite team doesn't mean that they're broken. =)

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I have to admit after my first game vs thresher I was ready to flip the table, however, five games in - I'm not even bothered.  

There is a lot you can do to shut him down and on top of that - thresher is really confined by a few things not least of which is that his whole game plan revolves around committing (the corollary was made to hammer) and if you either stop him from achieving that or make the terms really unfavorable then you come out on top.  

The biggest problem, for most people is that there is an extremely shallow learning curve to get to 'optimum efficiency' and so people feel like he's easy mode without respecting that whilst he's easy learn and has great acceleration his top speed is pretty low.  

One trick pony - also, there's no reason to change Thresher.  

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I wouldn't say he's a one trick pony, as that 3/8" kick can easily score a goal or two (best kick stat on the team, isn't it?), but he isn't some monster like S2 Fillet. He needs 5 hits for 3 damage, and I find he needs Harrow's Tooled-Up to really be a major threat, as well as Harvest Markers.

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Having now played Thresher I think the problem is less Thresher (although I think he should drop to def 3) but the team. Millstone and Tater (with jack straw for remote HMs just where you want) is such a hard squad to get into either for football or take outs. Immunity to conditions, counter charge and free counter is badass. 

I think my only problem is 1: the reaper abilities work from too far away (4" seems way too good for Don't Fear - 8" of threat on that ability) and 2: using their 'passive' abilities doesn't use up markers so you get counter charge and poised off the same marker which seems a little good. And can then eat it for Don't Fear.

I don't think Thresher is unbeatable but both Thresher, Tater and maybe Millstone are some of the best models in the game. That's...maybe too good in one squad?

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1 hour ago, S_A_T_S said:

I wouldn't say he's a one trick pony, as that 3/8" kick can easily score a goal or two (best kick stat on the team, isn't it?), but he isn't some monster like S2 Fillet. He needs 5 hits for 3 damage, and I find he needs Harrow's Tooled-Up to really be a major threat, as well as Harvest Markers.

Bushel is also a 3/8" - the other thing to really consider though is that for the family on Grange creates a lot of forgiveness with respect to passing etc.  

Sure he can barrel in and best case scenario he executes a squishy (top of 2 after winning initiative) then kicks a goal and knee slides back - however, if the stars don't align on that then he's really deep in the creek and has no back up to help him out.  

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I've had some success with him supporting Bushel, as he can take the ball at 3" with no reprisal or engagement for the kick and pass to her for a snap shot/dodge to safety, or he's not a bad target for her Ball's Gone! The two of them can act together up front for goal scoring without having to worry too much about Harvest markers, but it will be goals you are going for as they can't kick out a lot of damage together. Possibly a Thresher, Tater, Bushel, Millstone, Jackstraw, Peck goal scoring team with a little damage for a 2-2 score.

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