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Lumpyseven

When to pick Shark or Corsair

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Hey guys,

New Fish player here! I'm currently playing just Shark as I feel he's more one dimensional (read: easier to learn), but will be mixing it up soon. What situations would you draft Shark instead of Corsair or vice versa?

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I think Corsair tends to play better on average into most Guilds bar maybe Brewers.

That is not to say Shark is weak per se, but his last nerf in the name of fun just extenuated his shortcomings and made the number of team combinations he plays into better than Corsair quite small.

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I can't speak to a bunch of theory about who is better, but this is my experiences anyways. For the last 2 months, I've been exclusively playing Corsair to round out my Fishermen style. I've found that he CAN hold his own in pretty much any match but you need to be patient and know when to hang back. He doesn't always need a full 6 influence each turn, like Shark can sometimes command. 

I like Shark against slower teams or teams with lots of AoE. Also, I sort of feel like it's just easier to take Shark if your opponent has a lot of tough hide. Corsair vs tough hide is just a lesson in why other teams are annoyed with Corsair's tough hide. It turns into a looooooong slog fest. Not a big surprise, but whenever I play Corsair I also try and identify the easiest two figures to take off the pitch as well. Those are usually my targets for a chain grab or tar pit mauling.

I don't think Shark's nerf is as bad as advertised, but it does require a LITTLE more thought that he used to be. 

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Having never played Fish until my current escalation league, I don't see a problem with Shark (the nerf meant nothing to me as it happened before I played the Team).  I absolutely love fielding Shark into a 1 inch melee heavy team...touch me if you can.  He can reliable grab the ball off any model who only has 1" melee and then bounce away at his leisure.  I've found Corsair quite capable into most teams, he just needs a reliable winger or two that can grab the ball and score....but Shark is my go to guy.

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10 minutes ago, GoonieLaw said:

Having never played Fish until my current escalation league, I don't see a problem with Shark (the nerf meant nothing to me as it happened before I played the Team).  I absolutely love fielding Shark into a 1 inch melee heavy team...touch me if you can.  He can reliable grab the ball off any model who only has 1" melee and then bounce away at his leisure.  I've found Corsair quite capable into most teams, he just needs a reliable winger or two that can grab the ball and score....but Shark is my go to guy.

We are following the same path brother! I also have started them in an escalation league :)

The mixture of opinions is interesting so far...

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1 hour ago, GoonieLaw said:

Having never played Fish until my current escalation league, I don't see a problem with Shark (the nerf meant nothing to me as it happened before I played the Team).

There you go! That's refreshing to hear, considering all the anger.

The people most angry were the ones ONLY concerned about smashing your opponent (I feel) and not about the fun of a good game. 

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I picked up Fishermen after playing 'against' Fish in the Escalation league and having to play against them made me realise what they were capable of.

So far I've only played Shark, Salt Sakana, Hag, Siren and Jac, but adding a new dimension to my game by understanding positioning and pressure a little more

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1 hour ago, Lumpyseven said:

I only started playing Shark a few weeks ago, but it seems like he can still do most Shark things post errata? I feel like I can threaten the ball from pretty much anywhere!

I really disliked the Shark errata but yeah, he still functions more or less the same as before, he just can’t shut down models completely with Legendary plus Gut and string anymore (which is probably a good thing). The Siren1 nerf had a bigger impact on his game than his own nerf in my opinion, but the biggest issue for Shark is the OP document and when you choose captain. If they reverse that to the previous version Shark will gain back his previous popularity I think. As a sidenote I still mainly play Shark, he is still much more fun than Corsair.

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23 hours ago, Ik-tornado said:

Corsair vs everything

Shark vs players I think I need to get lucky to beat, vRage and sometimes Engineers/Butchers/Brewers

I think Shark v Union is something I'm going to go with.  Corsair fighting it out with Union isn't a ton of fun.  So far the best advice I've gotten is Shark v Union, Butchers, Brewers and maybe engineers (see above).  Corsair v the rest.  

Honestly, if you ran Corsair against everyone, you probably wouldn't be that far off, but he's a lot trickier to play than Shark.  Shark is a lot less mentally taxing than Corsair for me.  

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Corsair into everyone but Brewers, Blacksmiths, Union, and usually Butchers. If I think the guy is going to drop Fillet I prefer Corsair but that is a craps shoot and it is generally sage IMO to take Shark.

@FearLord makes a good point about the Siren1 nerf. The errata wasn't very kind dropping the changes to both Sirens and Shark at the same time and it felt worse than it probably was. That being said stagger is still garbage and hopefully gets replaced with something. (It is sooooo hard not to turn every discussion into a "shore up Shark" rant :rolleyes:)

I've had better luck with Shark into blacksmiths and over all just ignoring take outs. Apprentices are squishy enough to take out reasonably but out fasting them has worked for me. I'll probably change my tune once the second wave comes out (and just play Blacksmiths haha.)

I'm convinced that Brewers are a lot of the reason that Shark got nerfed. With G&S + legendary it was almost child's play. It is still a solid match up for him because of their lack of speed.

Union goes on my list because I don't like how much it comes down to dice with Corsair vs Rage. You can still absolutely win that game but for me it has come down to whomever is going to roll the poorest, loses. Missing that Drag and not getting to swing first is going to suck. Rolling bad with Corsair or A&G too many times in a turn will hose you for probably the rest of the game since they have soooo much damage.

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2 hours ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

Corsair into everyone but Brewers, Blacksmiths, Union, and usually Butchers. If I think the guy is going to drop Fillet I prefer Corsair but that is a craps shoot and it is generally sage IMO to take Shark.

@FearLord makes a good point about the Siren1 nerf. The errata wasn't very kind dropping the changes to both Sirens and Shark at the same time and it felt worse than it probably was. That being said stagger is still garbage and hopefully gets replaced with something. (It is sooooo hard not to turn every discussion into a "shore up Shark" rant :rolleyes:)

I've had better luck with Shark into blacksmiths and over all just ignoring take outs. Apprentices are squishy enough to take out reasonably but out fasting them has worked for me. I'll probably change my tune once the second wave comes out (and just play Blacksmiths haha.)

I'm convinced that Brewers are a lot of the reason that Shark got nerfed. With G&S + legendary it was almost child's play. It is still a solid match up for him because of their lack of speed.

Union goes on my list because I don't like how much it comes down to dice with Corsair vs Rage. You can still absolutely win that game but for me it has come down to whomever is going to roll the poorest, loses. Missing that Drag and not getting to swing first is going to suck. Rolling bad with Corsair or A&G too many times in a turn will hose you for probably the rest of the game since they have soooo much damage.

I took Shark in Blacksmiths and had a pretty miserable time.  I heard a LOT of people tell me that Corsair is a pretty good matchup in there if you can start gobbling up apprentices.  I think this is more of a function of not a lot of games against blacksmiths.  That one will shake out in the future. 

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I think it depends more on how good your opponent is. The way to counter Shark is not with a particular line up or guild but a particular tactic - make it really hard for him to get the ball. He is really good at getting the ball on account of his and his teams mobility and 2" melee, so it has to be a constant focus.

This is often quite boring because it usually means babysitting the ball with one of your players and not scoring goals. This means the ball is not live and you are more or less playing 1 person down. However given that Shark's necessarily football aggressive lineup usually seriously lacks damage, he can't really fight back, so it's a race to get the ball back before your life totals hit 0 one too many times.

The removal of G&S basically means Shark's window to score those goals has gotten smaller, as he is less effective at slowing the opponent down, meaning his team will get ground down quicker.

If you're playing in an escalation league, this is of course unlikely to be of any concern to you . Even in the majority of games I have played or watched, people do not kill the ball effectively vs Shark and thus it ends up being a pretty good game to play for both sides (that or a quick 3-0 in under 25 mins for el Sharko). However when you do get an opponent that pulls this tactic off, it's a miserable enough experience that you just want to play Corsair every game from then on. 

RIP Gut & String, forever in our hearts.

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1 hour ago, JS said:

RIP Gut & String, forever in our hearts.

I've only played a handful of Shark matches since the change, but I don't think I've picked Stagger once from my results. I think I'd rather have the Dodge on 1 just to generate some momentum.

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4 hours ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

Corsair into everyone but Brewers, Blacksmiths, Union, and usually Butchers. If I think the guy is going to drop Fillet I prefer Corsair but that is a craps shoot and it is generally sage IMO to take Shark.

@FearLord makes a good point about the Siren1 nerf. The errata wasn't very kind dropping the changes to both Sirens and Shark at the same time and it felt worse than it probably was. That being said stagger is still garbage and hopefully gets replaced with something. (It is sooooo hard not to turn every discussion into a "shore up Shark" rant :rolleyes:)

I've had better luck with Shark into blacksmiths and over all just ignoring take outs. Apprentices are squishy enough to take out reasonably but out fasting them has worked for me. I'll probably change my tune once the second wave comes out (and just play Blacksmiths haha.)

I'm convinced that Brewers are a lot of the reason that Shark got nerfed. With G&S + legendary it was almost child's play. It is still a solid match up for him because of their lack of speed.

Union goes on my list because I don't like how much it comes down to dice with Corsair vs Rage. You can still absolutely win that game but for me it has come down to whomever is going to roll the poorest, loses. Missing that Drag and not getting to swing first is going to suck. Rolling bad with Corsair or A&G too many times in a turn will hose you for probably the rest of the game since they have soooo much damage.

I don't think I did. Siren 1's nerf did very little to hurt my Shark playstyle (I was always the king of triggering Seduction off the playbook for efficiency reasons, and because it was less expected) and I still very much run her every game with either Captain. Siren 2's nerf was much more important for me overall, as it means the circumstances I'd pick her over Siren 1 are now much much less frequent.

While I'm here and talking Fish, I might as well say that I don't care about Shark's nerf either - I mainly used Gut and String for the def nerf, so he's not really changed much for me. I'm undefeated in casual games with Shark since then - casual only, as just as I did pre-nerf I have only used Corsair in competitive Fish games in Season 3, as he just feels a lot more flexible and less prone to being screwed over by bad dice, a good opponent or both...

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1 hour ago, FearLord said:

I don't think I did.

I should have maybe put some space between that. I mean that I thought you were correct in her getting changed affected Shark's game. For me it really did.

Siren losing the ability to strip the ball and pass it away has made goal #3 that much harder to get. Previously when receiving I'd fire someone up with a Pass and Move for a turn 1 goal (Sakana, Greyscals) then either steal the ball back with Shark in the last activation and score or prime him for round 2. Siren could steal for the third goal and either make the shot herself or pass it back to Shark/Goal 1 shooter for the win. This is now trickier to do since you are more than likely to use seduced on a charge rather than pay for it and then not be able to do anything.

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Honestly, I think Corsair is overall the better captain and genuinely has no bad match ups except maybe for vRage (haven't played it myself but I've heard a lot about it). That being said, I play mostly Shark these days mostly because he's just so much fun and more what I want out of the game. I've been tweaking his line ups, but I've added Salt back in to put on a flank and threaten a ball after the first goal. With good positioning, the other player has to choose between marking Salt, who can easily just run away, kicking it back towards more dangerous players, or conceding ball control to the otter. This way, Salt can do nothing all game and still create new options for the team.

The only match ups I really don't like with Shark are Engineers and Morticians because they both have access to easy ranged control that can shut down his game and close control is definitely a pain when dealing with Engineers. Other than that, I think both captains can work in just about any match up with the understanding that Shark needs to be applying pressure constantly throughout the early game while Corsair can take it a bit slower and is more viable in the late game.

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This is great stuff, thanks for everyone's responses! I guess this leads on to the next natural step - when playing Shark and Corsair, are there any players that find a place in both captains sixes most of the time? 

Second question - which players are almost always ONLY played with 1 of the captains, and not the other?

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As much as I like using Shark I find his playstyle really makes the game dull for an opponent or worse because effective use of most Shark teams comes down to positioning, avoidance and denial. 

The removal of Gut and String did not really change how Shark plays because it was mostly a bonus, it was just nice to know there was something there to change things up with. These days I look at Shark's first 3 columns and all I tend to see a momentous single dodge.

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10 hours ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

I should have maybe put some space between that. I mean that I thought you were correct in her getting changed affected Shark's game. For me it really did.

Siren losing the ability to strip the ball and pass it away has made goal #3 that much harder to get. Previously when receiving I'd fire someone up with a Pass and Move for a turn 1 goal (Sakana, Greyscals) then either steal the ball back with Shark in the last activation and score or prime him for round 2. Siren could steal for the third goal and either make the shot herself or pass it back to Shark/Goal 1 shooter for the win. This is now trickier to do since you are more than likely to use seduced on a charge rather than pay for it and then not be able to do anything.

If you mean the comment earlier in this thread it was me who wrote that, not FearLord. ;)

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1 hour ago, Lumpyseven said:

This is great stuff, thanks for everyone's responses! I guess this leads on to the next natural step - when playing Shark and Corsair, are there any players that find a place in both captains sixes most of the time? 

Second question - which players are almost always ONLY played with 1 of the captains, and not the other?

I take it this is from a purely competative/best team possible point of view?

I'm not sure if there is anyone that is always in both captains' teams, maybe Hag depending on what your plan is. There is usually hearty debate on the merits of the mascots and I think there is a fair argument for having Tentacles as the only mascot on a given roster.

As to player-captain combos:

I would say Greyscales is an all but auto-take with nearly all Shark teams, as he does a lot of what Shark needs reliably.

Siren1 was pretty much always apart of Shark teams but I think the errata has weakened her enough to make it less of a done deal.

Sakana is always going to pair up with Corsair because like Greyscales with Shark, Sakana gives Corsiar a lot of tools he needs.

A&G post errata seem to be major contenders for all Corsair teams because of their reliable damage output.

Siren2 pre-errata was nearly always in the Corsair team because Dread Gaze and good momentous damage was golden. Now though I think the jury is still out as to whether she is worth it, personally I dont think Dread Gaze alone is enough.

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