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CaptainFaux

Let's Revisit Lucky

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The last thread we had on this fellow was decent, but all speculation. I'd love to hear from folks who have spent some time with Lucky in the masons now that quite a few escalation leagues are going on. The more I look at his kit, the more I'm willing to throw him in to the mix.

Does he replace Mallet in Honours lineup? I could definitely see him replacing vet harmony or another flex slot with Hammer. What do y'all think?

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I've had a few good games with Lucky now, just to see how he does.  In short, he has often replaced either Mallet, Tower, or Brick for me, depending on the team.

Pros:

  • Great INF battery, and that extra 1 INF if you lose initiative is also very neat
  • Raise the Stakes is often a game winning move (to dodge him close enough to score, even if he loses a dice due to someone else dodging to engage him)
  • Lucky is quite the beater if he gets a Singled Out or 1-2 gang ups.  2 momentous on 2 hits is as sweet as Mallet (I wish Tower or Harmony had that).  
  • The condition removal is nice, but super short range and situational that I haven't gotten it to work even once yet.  Still a nice thing to have.

Cons:

  • Not really many besides the 1" reach and lack of defensive tech (like Tower and Hammer's pushes, Honour's dodges, etc...)

In a Hammer team he's invaluable, because you always want people with random INF sitting around.  So Lucky is great when you lose init, and keep him close to Hammer.  That means the Inf you left on someone else might actually be useful now and gives you even more flexibility.

I usually play:

Hammer, Wrecker, Flint, Tower 

Flex Slots: Mallet, Lucky, Minx/Mist, Chisel (yes, Chisel) - most likely Mallet/Lucky these days, Mist if I need more scoring, Minx if I want more damage and the opponent is not 2" heavy.

 

For an Honour team, Lucky can still be useful just as an INF battery and condition removal, simply because Honour/Harmony/Flint usually uses up all the INF.  I usually play:

Honour, Marbles, Harmony, Flint, Mallet

Flex Slots: Tower, Lucky, Mist - Mostly Tower if I want to kill better, Lucky if I'm playing both ball/kill game, and Mist if I play Butchers or any team that kills the ball well and kills better than me.

 

All in all, a VERY SOLID model, and I'm super happy to see SFG create him for the Masons/Brewers.  

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I just found out that all the participants in a local Big League will be getting a Lucky model.
I've just got the Kick Off! crew so I've not looked that much at Lucky earlier, but I'll follow this thread now to get any tips as to how I can use him.

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Thanks @kryzak! That is some great information to have. I'm definitely going to pull him out. What you mentioned is more or less what I had in mind.

Although I have added Granite in almost every game we've played recently. Our area has adopted the new deployment rules as standard these days and I do love having her in there. As it turns out... she gets to move AFTER the kick... which means she can potentially retrieve the ball before your opponent even has the opportunity to do so. Which is disgusting.

As for Lucky, he's definately going to find a spot on my roster after seeing that information. I wasn't confident in his abilities, but like I said the more I look the more and more I'm sold on him.

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On 10/23/2017 at 2:49 PM, kryzak said:

The condition removal is nice, but super short range and situational that I haven't gotten it to work even once yet.  Still a nice thing to have.

Perhaps this still hasn't come up for you but I don't see anything in the wording that keeps you from using it on Lucky.

Once per turn at the start of this model’s activation, choose a friendly Guild model within [4”] of this model. The friendly Guild model may remove one condition.

Since it doesn't say "other friendly Guild model" I have used this to clear a knockdown off of Lucky when playing him, for free. Kinda nice since it still gives you the option if the other guy decides to knock you down on a counter attack you haven't burned up your one Take a Breather.

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1 hour ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

Perhaps this still hasn't come up for you but I don't see anything in the wording that keeps you from using it on Lucky.

Once per turn at the start of this model’s activation, choose a friendly Guild model within [4”] of this model. The friendly Guild model may remove one condition.

Since it doesn't say "other friendly Guild model" I have used this to clear a knockdown off of Lucky when playing him, for free. Kinda nice since it still gives you the option if the other guy decides to knock you down on a counter attack you haven't burned up your one Take a Breather.

Yes, you are correct!  I forgot to clarify that this hasn't come up yet, because most of the time Lucky has 0-1 INF, and the one time I used him to kill, he did get KD and was going to die, but I won the init roll and won the game 12-10 (or Lucky would have just died and I would lose), so he never got to really use it.  It's still great to have in your back pocket though, kind of like a weaker Magical Brew. :)

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As I see it Masons have a fixed 8 on the Roster - Honour, Hammer, Marbles, Flint, Brick, oHarmony, Tower and Mallet. Then you take a union player, usually Mist for me. After that there's an argument to be made for Lucky, Chisel, vHarmony or Wrecker for the final spot (sorry Granite).

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10 minutes ago, Marbles said:

As I see it Masons have a fixed 8 on the Roster - Honour, Hammer, Marbles, Flint, Brick, oHarmony, Tower and Mallet. Then you take a union player, usually Mist for me. After that there's an argument to be made for Lucky, Chisel, vHarmony or Wrecker for the final spot (sorry Granite).

At first I was like meh... but in revisiting Mist I think I agree with you there. For the last two spots Id say lucky and vHarmony if it's normal deployment and granite if it's alt.

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1 hour ago, Marbles said:

As I see it Masons have a fixed 8 on the Roster - Honour, Hammer, Marbles, Flint, Brick, oHarmony, Tower and Mallet. Then you take a union player, usually Mist for me. After that there's an argument to be made for Lucky, Chisel, vHarmony or Wrecker for the final spot (sorry Granite).

I think there is more flexibility here - I haven't been taking union with masons (and I have never been someone to take pure guild). I agree that the 8 is fixed. The last two spots are super flexible. I think one of them should address conditions/control, so lucky or vharmony, and then the last slot can be whatever you like. So for me my 10 has been Honor, Hammer, Marbles, Flint, Brick, oHarmony, Mallet, Tower, Lucky, vHarmony. 

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On 11/5/2017 at 7:57 AM, Marbles said:

As I see it Masons have a fixed 8 on the Roster - Honour, Hammer, Marbles, Flint, Brick, oHarmony, Tower and Mallet. Then you take a union player, usually Mist for me. After that there's an argument to be made for Lucky, Chisel, vHarmony or Wrecker for the final spot (sorry Granite).

 

On 11/5/2017 at 9:15 AM, dtjunkie19 said:

I think there is more flexibility here - I haven't been taking union with masons (and I have never been someone to take pure guild). I agree that the 8 is fixed. The last two spots are super flexible. I think one of them should address conditions/control, so lucky or vharmony, and then the last slot can be whatever you like. So for me my 10 has been Honor, Hammer, Marbles, Flint, Brick, oHarmony, Mallet, Tower, Lucky, vHarmony. 

I agree with you guys on the roster flexibility spots.  I really like having Mist in the team, so my 10th comes down to Lucky vs. vHarmony.

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I'm in the same boat as pretty much everyone, with the core 8 (Hammer, Honour, Marbles, Brick, Flint, Harmony, Mallet, Tower) set in stone (pun intended), and the last two flex slots being hotly contested.

Since I currently don't have access to Lucky, he's out of the equation, but that still leaves Wrecker and vHarmony vs Minx or Mist. While I love Mist, I find Minx is an incredible battery and both captains tend to want to run a full stack, so she often takes one of the slots...

As others have said, when playing with Alternate deployment rules, however, things change significantly, however. Granite and Chisel suddently become a lot more tempting, and I'll usually bring those two instead as my last two... (I'll have to rethink it all once I get my hands on Lucky, of course).

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I forgot minx being a battery. Though I actually don't feel that bad on influence? Kind of? I prioritize brick last and if I have an extra, he gets it. I'm considering giving him two after turn 1 just so he can useful and charge.

But will alternative deployments, I think mist gets even higher value. If you start him on the middle line, with cover (which is very easy to do), you no longer have to cast smoke bomb and he automatically threats a further, what 4 or 6 inches, than before? You can go ahead and get that automatic first activation goal (lol it's happened like 3 times to me now damnit) and then you've got a whole flint and honour/hammer left to see what they can do. Lucky isn't a bad striker either, given the option.

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4 hours ago, Spinsane said:

Since I currently don't have access to Lucky, he's out of the equation, but that still leaves Wrecker and vHarmony vs Minx or Mist. While I love Mist, I find Minx is an incredible battery and both captains tend to want to run a full stack, so she often takes one of the slots....

This, I can't really understand not bringing minx, she's furious, has an insane threat range, brings 2 inf, and is our only access to snared, while also bringing another def debuff. I wouldn't leave home without her.

For me the main strain is bringing all the models I want and also being able to present as if I'm possibly going to play Honour (I'm not). If you don't bring Honour, oHarmony, and Marbles, people won't think you are seriously going to play her.

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1 hour ago, Rahn said:

This, I can't really understand not bringing minx, she's furious, has an insane threat range, brings 2 inf, and is our only access to snared, while also bringing another def debuff. I wouldn't leave home without her.

For me the main strain is bringing all the models I want and also being able to present as if I'm possibly going to play Honour (I'm not). If you don't bring Honour, oHarmony, and Marbles, people won't think you are seriously going to play her.

Mist is a striker with excellent threat, a payed for dodge and 2" melee. There are solid arguments for both Mist and Minx.

There are also plenty of competitive Honour lineups that don't feature oHarmony or Marbles. Honour, Wrecker, Brick, Flint, Mallet, Tower for example. Don't let other peoples perceptions of the game dictate what you play.

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13 minutes ago, Marbles said:

Mist is a striker with excellent threat, a payed for dodge and 2" melee. There are solid arguments for both Mist and Minx.

There are also plenty of competitive Honour lineups that don't feature oHarmony or Marbles. Honour, Wrecker, Brick, Flint, Mallet, Tower for example. Don't let other peoples perceptions of the game dictate what you play.

While it is a viable team, not having Marbles in one's 10-man roster severely limits Honour's damage potential... Without her monkey, she's nowhere near as threatening, and many opponents will assume you're either going with Hammer and select their captain accordingly, or can deal with Honour with the aforementionned lineup... If you think this can be to your advantage, so be it, but I usually find she lacks some puch when Marbles isn't present...

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1 hour ago, Spinsane said:

While it is a viable team, not having Marbles in one's 10-man roster severely limits Honour's damage potential... Without her monkey, she's nowhere near as threatening, and many opponents will assume you're either going with Hammer and select their captain accordingly, or can deal with Honour with the aforementionned lineup... If you think this can be to your advantage, so be it, but I usually find she lacks some puch when Marbles isn't present...

Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. I wasn't commenting on Marbles vs Wrecker in an Honour lineup, just saying that there exist strategies for Wrecker in Honour lineups. Also, there reasonable arguments for not playing Harmony with Honour. It's not my preference to play without either player, but it certainly can be done.

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I play pretty honor pretty often without harmony. I'd say its 50% with harmony, the other 50% split between tower and lucky in the 6th slot. 

As for the minx argument above - she certainly is efficient which is great to have, and access to snared is nice. She isn't in my 10 because of several reasons, namely that she is another lower health model to add to the lineup, is controllable limiting her output, decreases options to utilize in guild synergies (which masons have quite a lot of), and opportunity cost. That said I dont think there is necessarily a right answer, a lot of it is up to playstyle and what answers you want to have to the guilds you expect to face in any given event. 

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Minx being controllable... Ehhhh... Maybe.

My lineup has three models with knockback, and a mascot that gets a 2" push for free, if anyone can clear off a friendly furious model, it's Masons.

I get that the folks who play mist are playing a very different team with a different mindset, but Minx is so much upside (I forgot to mention her ability to usually be 6" away from her target at the end of her activation in my earlier post) with, imo, very little risk.

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1 minute ago, Rahn said:

Minx being controllable... Ehhhh... Maybe.

My lineup has three models with knockback, and a mascot that gets a 2" push for free, if anyone can clear off a friendly furious model, it's Masons.

I get that the folks who play mist are playing a very different team with a different mindset, but Minx is so much upside (I forgot to mention her ability to usually be 6" away from her target at the end of her activation in my earlier post) with, imo, very little risk.

Having played both Minx and Mist a lot with Masons, I would choose Mist.  Minx is easily controllable by 2" teams, namely Fish and Farmers.  Having 3 knockback models is misleading, because:

1. Hammer usually likes Minx to set up the snare for him, so I wouldn't use Hammer to do the Knockback duty unless in a pinch.

2. Brick never gets INF, period.  If he does, the Masons are probably in trouble. :P 

3. Tower is good, but I don't want to give him any more than 1 INF for that Tooled Up (or for Hammer to steal).  Having to activate someone to push a model that's controlling Minx away, and then have the same model (if that model hasn't activated yet) or another model (usually mascots) tie her down again, is just a waste of Tower's activation and 1 INF.

Your Knockback models also need to be near Minx, which isn't always the case for her.  

Wrecker is definitely good to help Minx out, which is why if I do take Minx, it would be with a Hammer/Wrecker team, almost never and Honour team.

You are correct that people who play Mist have a very different goal, but saying Minx is low risk of getting controlled is also a "maybe".  :) 

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If you are determined to not use any of your tools to solve a problem, I have no confusion as to why you would see it as unsolvable.

Brick usually has 1 for hammer to pull off, if he doesn't he's probably also not near Minx.

Hammer can go before Minx if he needs to, it's not some strategic tragedy or anything. It's even possible for the target hammer wants to swing at to be snared from the previous turn. Minx's subsequent action can also set up other team members.

You are also painting a picture where no one has influence to spend on a damaging attack that has the free consequence of freeing up your back-to-the shadows-double-dodge having model that got engaged. Where do you think the influence is at on this team? Remember, hammer can only take 5.

Hammer

Wrecker

Brick

Mallet

Tower

Minx

The team brings a ton of efficiency to the table, you've definitely got the spare influence to have someone free up mix, which supposes you placed her poorly, or your opponent went deep just to engage her, in which case great, they overextended.

Meanwhile you could run double striker teams where everyone wants 3-4 influence and you don't have enough to go around. You do you.

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Not sure if it's just the lack of tone in your post @Rahn, or if you're actually combative with your tone.

No one is saying you're wrong, just pointing out the pros and cons of Minx.  I have no interest in debating you on this, as I've played many games with both Minx and Mist, and liked both.  I merely pointed out why claiming Minx is "little risk" is not presenting the whole picture.  If you don't care to read, so be it. 

So like you said, I will do me, and you do you. 

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If you're considering minx to be anything more than "little risk" in most matchups you're willfully refusing to acknowledge the tools at your disposal. 

Your initial response contrived a nonsensical situation just so you could say you were right, please tell me how you allocate the influence to that team in such a way that no one can clear off a model that went deep to engage minx.

Minx is little risk, tons of efficiency, and brings several things unavailable to the faction. 

Just the fact that you said "Brick never gets inf" shows me you don't really know the hammer matchup. Whoever is near Hammer who doesn't need to move before hammer gets the inf hammer needs to siphon off. Often that is brick.

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