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naiconn1981

Shark's Fishermen and the third goal

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Hi

 

I'm playing Fishermen in the Escalation League, hoping to learn about the Guild and understanding just the dodge and football mechanic of GB (I mainly play Masons).

 

Currently, my challenge is finding that third goal, with a Shark lead team.  I use Sakana, Jac, Sakan, Siren, Greyscale and Salt.  The first two goals I find it quite easy to come by, with the reliance of potential snapshot, but when it comes to the third I feel my team starts to wear down, especially when the opposition have started taking my models out.

 

I'm having fun with Shark and learning from my mistake.  I wanted to see with a Shark lead team how do people plan for the last goal.  With my Masons team I like to goal for 2-2, but with Shark I see this as a rarity. 

 

Any advice would be much appreciated! 

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When are you aiming to score your first goal and who with?

At the end of the first turn where do each of you team usually stand on the pitch?

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15 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

When are you aiming to score your first goal and who with?

At the end of the first turn where do each of you team usually stand on the pitch?

Normally aim with Shark for the first goal, which has happened in my last two games, when Shark scores first.  First goal can be either Turn 1 or Turn 2.  

I normally try to run him away when he has scored, but thinking about it if the opposition doesn't have many models left to activate I can l have him near the centre and activate his Legendary next turn.

End of first turn I try to go with a diamond shape, having two wingers pushing forward, someone at the back and front.  

 

 

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Try to score the first goal with someone else, not Shark. This way you can position Shark in the middle of the pitch and threaten the next goal, pretty much regardless where they kick the Goal Kick to.

Sakana, Salt and Greyscales are good options for the first goal.

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4 minutes ago, Mootaz said:

Try to score the first goal with someone else, not Shark. This way you can position Shark in the middle of the pitch and threaten the next goal, pretty much regardless where they kick the Goal Kick to.

Sakana, Salt and Greyscales are good options for the first goal.

I would look to Greyscales if doing that just because he has UM and so is less likely to need to spend Inf to escape engagement

Personally I would focus on trying to use Shark for the opener with the last activation of turn 1 and leave him in the centre of the pitch in snap shot range and a scary place for firing off Caught in a Net in turn 2 but them turn to using Greyscales, Sakana and Siren for goal scoring. With Shark in the centre and Greyscales and Siren advancing up the pitch you can start putting non-standard snap shots into play via Balls Gone and Seduced. At the same time you would have Jac sitting at the back a little ready to push oponents arround and Salt preped for ball recovery when needed.

The thing to accept is that Shark will likely be the first person on your team to be taken out because he is a goal threat that can not be ignored (best mix of kicking stats and ability to break engagements you have). What you have to do is use the fact that he will be targeted to gain better field position and scoring oppertunties with the rest of the team

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I always try placing a piece of terrain that gives Sakana starting cover (+2/+2), because it can really catch your opponent off guard.  Opening with an 18 inch threat is pretty deadly and should afford you a turn 1 goal with Sakana.  This leaves Shark or Greyscales for the second goal, whoever is positioned best.  All that being said, I always try to score with Sakana first and if not him (they kick or have ball on the other side of the field) I use the Old Man/Greyscales.

 

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On 10/17/2017 at 7:00 AM, Mootaz said:

Try to score the first goal with someone else, not Shark. This way you can position Shark in the middle of the pitch and threaten the next goal, pretty much regardless where they kick the Goal Kick to.

Sakana, Salt and Greyscales are good options for the first goal.

Absolutely this! I was able to pull this off in a tournament game this weekend. 

Kick-off with Shark so he was just short of the middle-line. Used Hag to bump up Sakana and then a pass-dodge put him into goal scoring range. So mid-turn, got my Sakana goal and the last activation of round 1 was my Shark goal. Plus, got a bunch of momentum to win the initiative in round 2 and got another Shark goal right away for the win.

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Honestly, I don't think it matters who you score the first goal with as long as you position your team correctly (obviously not super easy). The goal is to score at the end of turn one and you've got models threatening both flanks and the center so that killing the ball is as difficult as possible. If you can score the goal with Shark and keep him safe to activate first on turn 2, that's ideal, but models like Angel (yes, I said Angel), Sakana, Greyscales, and even oSiren (in extreme cases) also represent secondary options depending on the match up. For me, the challenge has been identifying a secondary option for the first goal so that models like Ballista and Theron can't shut me down just by waiting for me to put the ball on Shark to use their control abilities. Putting 6 on Shark and 3 or 4 influence on your second option make the turn 1 goal way more difficulty to stop.

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You may have better luck swapping out salt for tentacles, tackle on the 1, reach, follow up and blind make him better late game, in the back field. Outside of that, a spread out shark(mid-deep), greyscales/tenticals/sakana(mid-back), siren/jac (mid/deep). Can make "fight-me" lists struggle to kill them or the ball.

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Who you choose to score with is a function of a couple factors.  They are mainly, where the ball was kicked off too, and where you cant place the model taking the shot.  

If you receive and starve your opponents mp generation, a final activation goal from Shark is probably the ideal situation. Because he can likely take back to back activations, which can be back breaking. 

If the only place to stand is a bit dangerous, I personally prefer sending Sakana in first. I usually save greyscales for responding to threats and chasing the ball down, but some people prefer his toolkit. And, while i usually try and sneak Angel up the field turn 1 with only 1 inf allocated, I do want her up field and threatening snapshots, so going with her seems feasible too. 

Also Hag is amazing. She helps turn everyone on your team on, is a great way to help Sakana get into cover, and makes that final ball retrieval a bunch easier. 

The key to good Fish play is to have multiple ways to threaten the ball so that your opponent gets overwhelmed with threat vectors and eventually makes a mistake. The nice part about getting to 8 points is that your opponents take outs should slow down as they spend resources to keep the ball away from you. 

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I'm pretty new to Fish, only played 2 games so far, but I've won with 2 goals and 2 takeouts both times! Played against Hunters and Masons, Jac pushed someone off the board both times, Shark killed someone both times (Minx and Lucky). Shark can put out a surprising amount of hurt with 2-3 crowdouts! Plus, noone expects Shark to turn around and murder someone, so you get that surprise factor :)

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I suffered a similar 2 goal fate at Steamcon.  Got a first turn shark goal each game.  Got a second goal from someone soon thereafter and then eventually suffered a close defeat. This can be a real puzzle against good players. 

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I really can't anticipate the next errata more. I think we are going to see just a few key tweaks to the fish. That third goal is rough.

A bigger issue than the third goal for me has been when you DO miss that turn 1 goal and have given up those free points for nothing. Your opponent doesn't even generally have to do anything to kill the ball and can just let it sit there against the goal post. Bad luck is bad luck but coming back from those is a damn mountain climb. My only game with Shark at SteamCon I missed my turn 1 against vRage and his goons and there was just no coming back against a competent player.

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Honestly, I had such a frustrating 2 goal tournament that on the next day I said "Screw it.  Corsair into everything" and I felt a lot better about it.  Granted, it was only blacksmiths and engineers, but people seemed pretty ready to deal with Shark in the LCQ.   

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I've been playing Shark a few times now and this is what I'm finding extremely tough to nigh impossible. I can get that first that goal done, second I can manage too. But at this point I've taken damage enough that the third isn't happening anymore, my models start dying out super easy and I can't seem to get back into the game. Last night I played Shark, Tentacles, Sakana, Hag, Greyscales and oSiren. My opponent played Esters, Scum, Friday, oSpigot, Mash and Pintpot. His dice rolls were the worst possible, I think he whiffed 4 attacks in a row with Esters trying to beat Sakana and even still all my models dwindled down and died. The game would've been so much worse against a heavier hitting team or even that team if they'd manage to roll even moderately well. 

But I'm having a super tough time getting that third goal. 

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To be fair that line up has three def 4+ Arm 0 models with mid to low hp, they will drop against a a brewer team intent on hurting them.

The thing to remember is that take outs are not always a bad thing because models like Shark, Greyscales and Sakana can easily threaten a the opponent goal on the turn they return if you can get the ball to them.

I crutch a lot on oSiren when going into the Brewers because she can use seduced reliably to put the ball into Fish hands (oSpigot and Pintpot are wonderful charge targets for oSiren).

Did you kick off or did the Brewer?

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But what other models to take then? 

I kicked off with Shark and he did do two goals. He made my turn 1 goal, got killed and came straight back up and scored the 2nd. So I know that take outs aren't necessarily bad, when they happen one at a time but after those two goals I find that my players start dropping like flies in twos or threes even and from that I can't pick my game up anymore. 

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You may have triggered Shark a little early. If you kicked off and got the ball back the last activation of the turn should have been him strolling up to the goal and setting himself up for a top of turn 2 legendary or do goal one with Sakana and hold Shark back to threaten goal two and a legendary at the top of two.

When you kick off where do you kick to and which of your team do you try to have threaten the quick ball recovery? Against brewers if oSpigot and Friday are on one wing to benefit from their synergies I kick to the opposite wing and if they have a wing each I kick to oSpigots side as he is slower.

The trick I have found to a Shark kick off into brewers if it cant be avoided is have Siren and Greyscales a little further out on the wings than normal and aim to have the ball skim down the halfway line towards the side of the pitch and force a hard ball recovery from your opponent rather than having to rely on tackles as they run the ball up towards you.

Brewers work on close proximity synergies and quite set activation orders to get the most out of them but Fish don't so you should aim to put threats on places in the field where their combo finishers are to force them to activate earlier than they want. A Nimble, Super Shot Angel standing in cover for example will command a lot of respect from most Brewers because of the snap shot threat even when the goal is covered (this is one of the few teams I consider Angel a good pick against).

With Brewers, especially ones lacking Tapper and Hooper I would also consider Jac over Hag just to spend 2Inf and 1MP to push the brewers all out of position.

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I threw the legendary on turn 3 when I had oSpigot, Friday, Pintpot, Esters and Scum under it. 

I deployed oSiren, Shark, Sakana, Hag, Greyscales, Tentacles and they were fairly spread out on the line. Shark kicked the ball to the left flank because there was a rock there that was disruptive to my opponents movement. I pushed oSiren forward with Hag, she ran and passed the ball to Shark who then made a goal. I then had oSiren on the Flank, Shark in the middle, Sakana in the middle, Greyscales on the other flank. Tentacles was with Greyscales Blinding targets and providing a crowd out. Hag was hanging around with Shark, Sakana and oSiren waiting for a good opportunity to Legendary, which she did, got Shark forward, oSiren, oSpigot, Scum and Friday. 

Angel sounds pretty good, I need to look her over again. For Jac, I need to check him out too. I've played them both but not in the same team and they didn't do much at all those games, that's why I've kinda scrapped them. 

So Hag -> Jac. Who'd you drop for Angel? That sounds like a tough one as I quite like Sakana and Greyscales. 

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I would do a straight striker swap and have Angel in for Sakana.

Once I had the ball on Siren in that situation I would have passed to Shark like you did and then just waited the brewer out by making small moves forward with the rest of the team to have them spaced out about 2" to 3" out of the deployment zone. The last would be Shark sprinting 9", tidal surging 4" and shooting from 8" away without any possible counter play from the brewers.

In a similar vein to Blackheart you should not be holding onto Shark's or Hag's legendaries in bids to engineer scenarios where you cover as many models as possible. They are both best used to get key pieces sorted out early in the game.

 

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Hm.. This might sound silly and I think I understand why stall it, but couldn't the Brewers just move forward and block my path to kick the ball or mess up my movement lines? 

Also you should save the shot so they can't kill Shark turn 1 and farm momentum while doing so? And him being safe when you make that shot the last of turn 1 and get the momentum out of it and hoping to win the initiative? 

Also thank you a bunch for taking the time to go through all this, greatly appreciated. :)

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It's important to know what to do with Shark when he scores that first goal. If you can get him in the right position, you force the Brewers to choose between setting up for the rest of the game and collapsing on him for the guaranteed 2 points. Shark is harder to kill than a lot of people think, so if they don't send in the full goon squad, he can slip away and set up for either the second or third goal. And if they do go full goon and just go all in on him, they're giving up control of the pitch, meaning the places they can hide the ball shrink significantly.

I would avoid Angel into Brewers. Friday and Spigot have very easy access to tackles and they are brought almost every game already. She has a very telegraphed goal threat and does nothing for you without the ball in her immediate vicinity. Sakana has better disengage, reach (good for getting through Glutt Mass), and a very reliable goal. When I play into Brewers, I run Shark, Salt, Hag, oSiren, Sakana, and Greyscales. Spread 'em out, split the field into thirds for Shark, Sakana, and Greyscales to patrol, and keep Siren and Salt for emergency ball retrieval or crowd outs. If you position well and time your goals right, the Brewers have an extremely difficult time keeping pace.

It might also be worth trying out Hemlocke specifically against Esters. Being able to clear burning will reduce a lot of her early game control. Plus, Hemlocke is a sneaky good ball player. Momentous Tackle on 1 with lots dodges in the playbook. She's not a striker by any means, but she's solid enough at ball recovery to be a fairly flexible tool. Plus she brings blind and you can still bring the otter (yes, I prefer Salt! Don't look at me like that! I'm crazy like an otter).

Ultimately, it's about projecting pressure with Shark. If the Brewers are taking someone out, make sure someone else is threatening the ball. Make them constantly decide between pursuing VPs and protecting the ball. You don't always need to be scoring or tackling the ball to be making your opponent's life difficult. It takes some time to get comfortable with how to apply that pressure, but it's worth the frustration every time you get to watch the other player look back and forth between their ball carrier and that sweet, sweet brawl set up and not know what to do :D

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My pick into Brewers has always tended to be Shark, Salt, Angel, Greyscales, Jac and oSiren.

Angel can be targeted by Friday and oSpigot for ball stealing but only if she is carrying the ball and after turn 1 Angel to my mind should just be a Def 6+ snapshot threat that demands attention rather than an active piece. For most games into Brewers I have trend to make Angel my turn 1 scorer over Shark because of how solid she can make herself to most direct attackers. However that is more just down to varying personal preference and play styles.

As to Brewers moving and blocking the way to the Goal if you hang back... Let them try try, but even if they do put someone in front of you, the Fish have the movement tricks to get around and beyond that Shark and Angel have the raw stats just to kick straight through a model if push comes to shove.

Remember very little of Brewers team can project far enough forward in turn one if they are receiving so play to it and don't get suckered into the old wargaming mentality of needing to have a barny in the centre of the table.

You don't even need to really worry about winning initiative on turn 2. As @Penguin Warriorpointed out Shark is petty resilient so if he is untouched at the end of turn 1 then he (with the aid of a defensive stance) can easily take a charge from all but the best killers.

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