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Mattias

Power creep

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Hello everyone,

 

I switched over from Union exactly a month ago after WTC. Since then I have only played Blacksmiths. 

My local group (consisting of some pretty good players) is starting to state that there is a clear power creep going on with Smiths. 

There are a couple of issues I hear alot of opponents complain about. 

1. Iron, being able to dish out so much damage is fine, but the fact that he also has Close Control and is really fast seems to be an issue for some. 

2. Ferrite, being the goal scoring monster that she is. Momentous Disarm/Weak Point on 1 hit, this feels too good, even for me when I play her. 

 

A lot of the issues are related to Blacksmiths being new, and people learning how to deal with them. 

Anyone else hearing these complaints in the local shop? 

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I've played against them a few times. They are good at what they do and Ferrite is stupid good - but, they have weaknesses. They are weak to KDs or condition AOEs. Their apprentices are quite easy to take down. They have a lot of 1" (yes Hearth is a bit silly in this regard - will have to see how that works out). Their counters are annoying but usually don't disengage except for Iron and Ferrite. 

Ferrite is the NUMBER 1 model that has to be taken out - she's a bit like Shark in that if you leave her on the pitch she will wreck your face (not damage, just cripple the team and score). I focus on her. Iron is number 2. Once these are taken out, the BS start to lose momentum I find. 

No doubt, BS are good. And the new arrivals...make them better. But we'll have to see how the whole team shakes out before Power Creep comes out. So far I've beaten them with Farmers and Hunters.

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10 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

I've played against them a few times. They are good at what they do and Ferrite is stupid good - but, they have weaknesses. They are weak to KDs or condition AOEs. Their apprentices are quite easy to take down. They have a lot of 1" (yes Hearth is a bit silly in this regard - will have to see how that works out). Their counters are annoying but usually don't disengage except for Iron and Ferrite. 

Ferrite is the NUMBER 1 model that has to be taken out - she's a bit like Shark in that if you leave her on the pitch she will wreck your face (not damage, just cripple the team and score). I focus on her. Iron is number 2. Once these are taken out, the BS start to lose momentum I find. 

No doubt, BS are good. And the new arrivals...make them better. But we'll have to see how the whole team shakes out before Power Creep comes out. So far I've beaten them with Farmers and Hunters.

Thats what I try to explain to locals. Take out Ferrite and we lose steam, fast. 

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We were talking about this the other day. As a newish player they do seem a bit OTT. eg everything vitriol got nerfed for (movement bonus, high damage output from a striker) Alloy seems to have and then some.

Agree the current 6 are beatable (I did so on one of the don't touch the beard match be reports) but they seem to be moving into space marine territory with the new arrivals. Other than condition damage I see very few weaknesses (and I fully expect one of the next 4 models to have some sort of healing/condition stripping buff). 

What's currently well scary is their ability to field ferrite, cinder, alloy, plus a bunch of 7 damage melee guys so massive ball/goal pressure plus very strong in the scrum. 

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Having played them exclusively from GenCon till end of September, I do have a nagging feeling that they might be a little strong.  Granted, like people said here, they have big weaknesses.  The other one is if the Master (except for Ferrite) is taken out, then it takes forever to bring them back in the game again.  Similarly with Apprentices, as they're easier to take out.

Also, except for Ferrite, the other Masters don't really benefit much beyond 3 INF.  I like this design because it's hard to have any 6 INF activation super captains like the other teams, and activation order matters a ton, and that gives opponents time to wreck your plan.  Ferrite is the exception though.

Besides that, I truly am worried about Alloy (and less so, Hearth).  I know he's only good if near Hearth and getting all the buffs from her, but a good player will make sure that's true most of the time, and then Alloy becomes a monster...  

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6 hours ago, StevekCole said:

What's currently well scary is their ability to field ferrite, cinder, alloy, plus a bunch of 7 damage melee guys so massive ball/goal pressure plus very strong in the scrum. 

If you are already fielding Cinder and Alloy then you only have room for one 7 dmg melee guy.

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At the moment they are strong, one of the top teams. And they will only get stronger with next wave of models. If the blacksmiths coach knows how to protect apprentices there is very little I can do. I expect them to be nerfed, as soon as SFG sells enough of them. Sadly, I think that failure of Hunters guild (they were in EVERY mystery box so they had huge stock) SFG decided to release slighlty overpowered guild and probably nerf them later than underpowered one that needs a buff. This way it sales better. That's just my speculation based on observations, not confirmed fact ;)

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1 hour ago, el009 said:

At the moment they are strong, one of the top teams. And they will only get stronger with next wave of models. If the blacksmiths coach knows how to protect apprentices there is very little I can do. I expect them to be nerfed, as soon as SFG sells enough of them. Sadly, I think that failure of Hunters guild (they were in EVERY mystery box so they had huge stock) SFG decided to release slighlty overpowered guild and probably nerf them later than underpowered one that needs a buff. This way it sales better. That's just my speculation based on observations, not confirmed fact ;)

Going the good ole Games Workshop way.

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1 hour ago, el009 said:

(they were in EVERY mystery box so they had huge stock) 

Skipping past the rest of your wild speculation, this statement is factually untrue. We had multiple mystery boxes in my area with no Hunters. 

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1 hour ago, el009 said:

At the moment they are strong, one of the top teams. And they will only get stronger with next wave of models. If the blacksmiths coach knows how to protect apprentices there is very little I can do. I expect them to be nerfed, as soon as SFG sells enough of them. Sadly, I think that failure of Hunters guild (they were in EVERY mystery box so they had huge stock) SFG decided to release slighlty overpowered guild and probably nerf them later than underpowered one that needs a buff. This way it sales better. That's just my speculation based on observations, not confirmed fact ;)

I have had similar impression. If its true its commendable, but I do hope that season 4 will rectify most imbalances.

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I've seen furnace be used as captain to control the scrum more but have yet to try. It's hard not to use ferrite as captain. On that note after I score with her I get her into the scrum and disarm the hell out of people. Even when being crowded out having disarm on 1 is perfect. She either takes damage after from some one of my opponent saves her for later. Either way that's where furnace comes in and puts down his rowdy aura on ferrite... Now I'm laughing lol. He tools up cinder or sledge and hits some one for searing strike and weather the storm and position cinder for a goal. Gone 5 - 1 doing this.

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4 hours ago, Falkman said:

If you are already fielding Cinder and Alloy then you only have room for one 7 dmg melee guy.

Sure - point is still that you can field 2-3 really good strikers for ball pressure, 2 of whom (Ferrite & Alloy) are also massive pains in a scrum while also running say Sledge/Iron, Anvil, and Hearth. So huge ball pressure and goal threat, plus a very solid scrum indeed and some serious mobility. If your opponent knows what they're doing its very, very hard to see a game losing weakness in that team. Again, as a reasonably new player, that's massively dispiriting - you commit to playing something reasonably balanced and then something rather OP comes out it doesn't fill you with love for the game!

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Always interesting to see how different metas react to new teams.

I've also been playing the Blacksmiths exclusively since I got my hands on them and my regular play group consists of some pretty solid players. We think the Forged from Steel box set sits "middle of the pack" moving closer to top tier with the addition of Hearth and Alloy as options. 

Will need to see the last two Master/Apprentice combos but right now the Blacksmiths are a team with good, bad and even match ups against the other Guilds - as stated above, new teams are always tougher to play against because you need games against them to figure out your counter tactics. 

IMHO the overall balance between the Guilds has narrowed from top to bottom.   

 

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28 minutes ago, Alphadork said:

Always interesting to see how different metas react to new teams.

I've also been playing the Blacksmiths exclusively since I got my hands on them and my regular play group consists of some pretty solid players. We think the Forged from Steel box set sits "middle of the pack" moving closer to top tier with the addition of Hearth and Alloy as options. 

Will need to see the last two Master/Apprentice combos but right now the Blacksmiths are a team with good, bad and even match ups against the other Guilds - as stated above, new teams are always tougher to play against because you need games against them to figure out your counter tactics. 

IMHO the overall balance between the Guilds has narrowed from top to bottom.   

 

I agree. A big part of guild ball is Know your enemy. I've caught myself more than once saying "_____ is too broken and needs to be nerfed" only to realize that no the player or team does have a flaw and this is how you exploit that flaw. Blacksmiths look scary on paper but there are some large flaws but that can be said about every team.

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Part of the problem is their lack of mascot. In other teams there is always one "player" that does little to nothing on the pitch. I'm mostly Mort player. What's Dirge use? Recovering free ball from time to time, supporting Cosset (which I pick maybe 1 in 3 games) and being kind of annoying blocking charge paths. Blacksmiths have no mascots so their apprentices should be a bit weaker than standard players to compensate for it. And I realy don't feel they are. Yes, they bring less influeance but the team has 12 overall. If I bench Obulus that's exacly the same I get in Spooks... Just dislike Blacksmiths.

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6 minutes ago, el009 said:

Part of the problem is their lack of mascot. In other teams there is always one "player" that does little to nothing on the pitch. I'm mostly Mort player. What's Dirge use? Recovering free ball from time to time, supporting Cosset (which I pick maybe 1 in 3 games) and being kind of annoying blocking charge paths. Blacksmiths have no mascots so their apprentices should be a bit weaker than standard players to compensate for it. And I realy don't feel they are. Yes, they bring less influeance but the team has 12 overall. If I bench Obulus that's exacly the same I get in Spooks... Just dislike Blacksmiths.

Outside of a the sentinel aura, 3/4 of the apprentices go down real quick

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I read through this and a couple of posts made me chuckle.

Blacksmiths have some strengths and weaknesses. Certainly not GW like as i can see in their design space, space marine ish or in my opinion OP.

They require set up in most cases which telegraphs who the key players are to control, they have in general very low defence so control plays work well against them. There may be a meta shift when they and farmers are released as different teams will be strong into them.

Also, they have no condition removal!

Actual mom damage is only on certain players. 12 inf team as well and generally long playbooks also limit max mp gain in a turn.

 

 

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2 hours ago, el009 said:

Part of the problem is their lack of mascot. In other teams there is always one "player" that does little to nothing on the pitch. I'm mostly Mort player. What's Dirge use? Recovering free ball from time to time, supporting Cosset (which I pick maybe 1 in 3 games) and being kind of annoying blocking charge paths. Blacksmiths have no mascots so their apprentices should be a bit weaker than standard players to compensate for it. And I realy don't feel they are. Yes, they bring less influeance but the team has 12 overall. If I bench Obulus that's exacly the same I get in Spooks... Just dislike Blacksmiths.

I wouldn't say Dirge does little to nothing if you count the fact that he does all of this stuff (and I use him regularly to harry the opponent, retrieve the ball, or provide ganging up) for 0 influence. The apprentices don't do nearly as much for 0 influence. Every time I play Dirge against a newer player they always say 'wait 8" is his JOG?' :)

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2 hours ago, el009 said:

Part of the problem is their lack of mascot. In other teams there is always one "player" that does little to nothing on the pitch. I'm mostly Mort player. What's Dirge use? Recovering free ball from time to time, supporting Cosset (which I pick maybe 1 in 3 games) and being kind of annoying blocking charge paths. Blacksmiths have no mascots so their apprentices should be a bit weaker than standard players to compensate for it. And I realy don't feel they are. Yes, they bring less influeance but the team has 12 overall. If I bench Obulus that's exacly the same I get in Spooks... Just dislike Blacksmiths.

I have a lot of turns where i allocate 5 to Ferrite, 4 to Iron and 3 to Sledge. That leaves 3 players with no influence. This means they do nothing that turn. 

Allocating 1 influence to players is not enough in most cases, so I distribute in big piles. 

I can see the reasoning that having no mascot feels really good, but I think this comes with a big disadvantage aswell. Every kill is 2 VP. 

Dirge is a pretty bad example of a “useless” mascot imo, since I feel he is on the top end of mascots. 

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32 minutes ago, kaladorm said:

I wouldn't say Dirge does little to nothing if you count the fact that he does all of this stuff (and I use him regularly to harry the opponent, retrieve the ball, or provide ganging up) for 0 influence. The apprentices don't do nearly as much for 0 influence. Every time I play Dirge against a newer player they always say 'wait 8" is his JOG?' :)

Once Tresher hits the field Dirge will become a superstar. Running down all those harvest markers.

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Don't get me wrong guys. Dirge is decent MASCOT, not as agood as Naja, Strongbox or Engineers stuff but still solid choice. The only choice for Spooks but that's different story. Yet he is far weaker than any PLAYER. I would trade him for say Ghast any time. 

Yup, you are right there is not enough influence to power all the toys at any time. But having one more PLAYER on the pitch gives You more options. You don't realy expect said Dirge (which, as You mentioned, isn't bad mascot) to deal solid dmg or score a goal. That's not his job, he can only support Spooks and disrupt others, in a limited way. Having more players is significant advantage so it should be balanced out with some flaws. And I can't see Smiths having more flaws than other guilds. Not saying they are super op - at this point they ar the top of the curve for me. With incoming releases they are likely to go even higher.

 

I'm retired 40k player - started playing it like 10 yrs ago an quit after like 4 yrs. At the very beginning every fanboy denied power creep. Time proved them wrong and 40k is dwarfed by other systems. This kind of approach would kill any smaller company. Just saying guys, just saying... I don't want GB to walk this way, I'm too old for starting another wargame.

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3 minutes ago, el009 said:

Don't get me wrong guys. Dirge is decent MASCOT, not as agood as Naja, Strongbox or Engineers stuff but still solid choice. The only choice for Spooks but that's different story. Yet he is far weaker than any PLAYER. I would trade him for say Ghast any time. 

Yup, you are right there is not enough influence to power all the toys at any time. But having one more PLAYER on the pitch gives You more options. You don't realy expect said Dirge (which, as You mentioned, isn't bad mascot) to deal solid dmg or score a goal. That's not his job, he can only support Spooks and disrupt others, in a limited way. Having more players is significant advantage so it should be balanced out with some flaws. And I can't see Smiths having more flaws than other guilds. Not saying they are super op - at this point they ar the top of the curve for me. With incoming releases they are likely to go even higher.

I find it hard to make the comparaison, since Ghast is not a slightly weaker player. 

In my opinion, both Cinder and Sledge are below average players. Except when you put them in their ideal scenario. AKA Free ball for cinder. Singled out, KD’d, engaged enemy with about 10hp left for Sledge. 

Except for kicking off, I use cinder only when there is a free ball. 

It gives me an extra option, but it is about as situational as a Sic em Strongbox charge. Which deals a lot of damage by the way. 

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Also a mascot has the advantage of being only 1vp, which in most cases is worthless unless the opponent decides to go for 2 takeouts on the mascot. An apprentice is almost as squishy as some of the tougher mascots with the advantage to your opponent of giving them 2vp, not 1.

Not saying Smiths are not OP, just offering a counter

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