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How do i play Smoke well?

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I'm trying to figure out how to play smoke effectively but it isnt going particularly well. It may just be that the playstyle of smoke's team does not click with me. It could also be that i don't actually know what im supposed to be aiming for with smoke. So i have a couple of high level questions about smoke in the current ruleset.

-What is my overall gameplan here? Am i forming a cage and playing ranged combat? How many goals am i trying to score?

-Whats my turn one gameplan on kicking or recieving? Should i be trying to hit opponents with circles for momentus inspiration or do i need to ensure no one gets into early melee combat?

Union choices. I like mist because he fits my playstyle better (ie soccer midas) but then you need to run mercury to get fire circles. 

Just want some opinions on playing smoke as i either just end up playing her like an aggressive captain out of habit (which hasnt worked) or misplaying the control game.

 

Thanks

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Smoke really wants both Calculus and Mercury on her team.  She is a huge force multiplier for these players.  If you receive the ball, use it to keep your blasters further back while still contributing.  Ideally you won't make contact with the other team until turn 3.

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I guess thats an issue i run into. I try to use mercury and calculus to hit with aoes but always end up positioning in such a way that fighting happens on turn 2. Havent really figured out the positioning game yet. I also find that when i kick off my opponent uses passes to either get into position to fight earlier than i want to, or keep damage/conditions off of players. 

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I haven't played with Alchemists since Vengeance, but I did use Smoke heavily in S2. I also took Decimate over Mist with Smoke.

If recieving, I liked to kick the ball about a bit to get a little MP and end with it on Smoke to give her the 4" dodge up the pitch. Calculus and Mercury chuck some AoE's forward to hopefully put on some conditions and another couple of MP. Decimate puts Second Wind on Smoke, because she is going to score, and getting her 4" closer to home is a good thing. In the last activation, Smoke would get forward, probably legendary, shift a couple of AoE's about to spread the condition love, then score, ideally dodging back with all that MI MP and/or Second Wind to get to safety. The other team then are starting T2 with 3-8 damage on each of them, which is when Decimate and Vitriol (probably now replaced with oKat) go to work. They can/could put out enough damage to finish players off, and the speed to get a second goal (9" sprint with 3/6" kick is not a bad goal scorer, especially with all those momentous dodges to help, while oKat's 8" with 2/6" isn't too shabby either when another goal could win you the game).

Alchemists always want a 2-2/3-0 game. It's possible to go for more TKs, but with Smoke and Vitriol/Mist/Decimate/8+" sprints on all but Smoke and mascots, 2 goals is easier. Lack of 2" melee might be an issue - I still don't think Harry is that bad a choice to support oKat and sling burning (no MI though).

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I tend to run a much more attrition based Smoke game, forgoing scoring if I receive the ball for the sake of delaying engagement until I can no longer keep the ball safe.  I also hold Smoke's Legendary play in reserve until I find I have a good use for it, usually a late activation to net a take out with the burst of 5 damage or an early activation to snipe a mascot or heavily injured player to generate momentum for a first activation goal.  I usually end up somewhere between 1-4 and 2-2.

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Calculus, Mercury and Katalist is a stable core, but lately against the less killy teams I like to play Smoke, Naja (or Flask if I have Sic em), Calculus, Vitriol, Vet. Kat, Venin. It's not that stable but I find it more fun than waiting out the 2 or 3 turns. My game plan when receiving is to activate Smoke as the 5th activation, move the poison aoe and use legendary, score the goal. Last activation is Venin to hand out bleedings to the enemy. That's usually a lot of 8 damages (2+3+3), and a lot of target for Vet. Katalyst, starting next turn. Sometimes he can kill 2 figures with 1 activation this way, if he hits his aoe. I usually only use Witness me if there is a chance for 2 kills at the beginning of the turn to get to 10-2. I wouldn't necessary use it as a competitive list, but it works and it's fun.

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Even when Midas was good, I would bring out Smoke in any game against Masons, as their low defence, slow speed and lack of 2" melee lets vKat really do his thing. All those apply to Butchers as well, actually, although you have to work harder to control Fillet and keep vKat safe until he can kill a load of dudes. Calculus is your friend - Blind + Fire, with the threat of vKat or Harry charging her if she comes too close, is strong.

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Alright, let's take a quick crack at this question.

I played a smoke skew list at WTC this past weekend going 4-1 losing only to a player on Germany1.

Smoke has a unique play style that is somewhat counter-intuitive to how you win guild ball games with any other captain. This is both a blessing and a curse since it makes her difficult to learn to play and difficult to play against.

Let's start with the list. Smoke, Flask, Calculus, Mercury, Katalyst 2, Harry.

Flask: We could play naja here for more ball protection but sic'em is too good on flask to leave him at home and oddly putting 5 influence on Mercury is sometimes really good. Plus the cloud brings influence efficiency to Smoke.

Calculus: one of only 3 models in the faction that can proc Smoke's aura you need to take her. Also blind is really good.

Mercury: Same as above but the ability to knock someone down with Harry then reliably put 10 damage on them with Mercury will surprise people, but he is mostly here for that sweet fire Aoe.

Katalyst 2: Is bad for a lot of reasons but he is good for just 1, witness me, and that is why he is on the team. The ability to remove himself from the pitch thus preventing your opponent from farming momentum off of him, clearing your conditions, and taking control of the game is extremely powerful. The downside to this list is if you never get witness me off you will not win.

Harry: Harry is not what he once was but he still reliably pushes allowing you to set up vet kat and allowing him to use his furious. Also, don't forget that he can easily condition players by placing his Molotov and pushing them into it or just pushing someone into Mercury or Calculus' auras. He also brings a second fire AOE which is very important more on that later. 

The only time the list changes is if you are playing against butchers. Compound will come in for harry since compound hoses Filet so badly.

Overall Gameplan

The list is a very painful attrition list. We are shooting for 3 takeouts, and a goal. 

This is our point breakdown.

4pt goal

4pt Witness me takeout

4pt 2 take outs using conditions and Smoke feat. This can also come from a second witness me. It is a bit of a pipe dream but I think you will be surprised with how often you get it.

Smoke, her Conditions, her Legendary and You.

Activating smoke can get very complicated but the general idea goes like this. Allocate her four, leave the ball on her as much as you can, then activate her last. If at any moment you realize that if you do not activate her she will die or the goal will be taken away from you activate her and take the goal. To take the goal you need 3 influence and in all honesty, you can really get away with 3 on smoke almost always, but the 4th influence allows a lot of flexibility and gives you a chance to fix your mistakes.

The reason we always activate Smoke last is that it gives them no time to respond to the conditions we place on their players. They can bring a player with smelling salts but if you have the last activation it doesn't really do anything. Having the last activation with her can also make her legendary substantially stronger. If say you are going to legendary on 3 players who do not have poison on them pushing the clouds onto them effectively makes you legendary do 5 damage. This 3 player legendary is 15 damage! That's insane! No dice involved, ignores tough hide, and this legendary is fairly mediocre. But the most important part of the legendary is to hold it for as long as you can. Ideally, you want to end the game by using the legendary and taking the goal. 

Let's Talk Allocation.

With the exception of turn 1 which has a few different permutations, your allocation will be 4 on Smoke, 3 on Calculus, 2 on Mercury, 2 on Harry, 2 On Kat.

This allows for maximum condition placement and is a full allocation to Kat.

Calc can blind and AOE, Merc can AOE or charge (looking for the 2 damage double push to set up Kat,) and Harry can attack and Molotov or just charge.

You can stray from this but you very rarely will.

Placing AOE's

Mercury and Calculus want to place their AOE's on players to gain the momentum, but be careful placing them on fast players. We are trying to deny them as much momentum as possible and often placing in front of fast high defense models is just better. Also when placing AOE's be as far away as possible this will force them deeper into your lines once they get to you.

Make them go first

There are only 2 situations where you want to go first. Kat can witness me someone as the first activation or allowing them to go first will be a total disaster and you can prevent it by going first. This is to guarantee the last activation for smoke and to keep that condition damage coming. 

Kicking vs Receiving

This list wants to receive so bad. But it is not a total disaster if you do not. The main thing you need to admit to yourself is that you have no ability to fight for the ball. Your tackles are actively bad and more than half your list is tac 4 or lower. So when you kick keep the ball as close to you as you can and steer clear of the goal. You want them to take an early goal before they close with you. If they are wise to what you are doing and use the ball to fight you stand in cover and make sure that Kat threatens to kill anyone that they send in. It is also important to keep in mind that Harry, Calculus, and Mercury are very hard to kill with just one model. Most captains will need 2 damage buffs to get there and that will likely give you the time you need to get that target out of harms way.

Plot Cards

The 2 most important plot cards to have for this list are Knee slider and sic'em. Knee slider is a card that can ruin your game if they have it and they received allowing them to take their goal and not give you any points in return. When combined with a superstar captain it is incredibly dangerous. Ironically though it does almost nothing for the list since you will only be taking a goal to win discard it if you draw it, but pay very close attention if you don't have it. Sic'em is just pure @VanV alue. With all the conditions flying around a flask charge can be world ending. My personal record is 30 damage. After those 2 the cards are about the same as usual. Who are ya is always great, Match fixing really helps when recieving since the list is not the most mobile, and good marker can really help keep an AOE thrower safe for a turn. 

Bad Matchups

So your worst matchup is still Corsair. Tough hide, sturdy, close control is just a huge kick in the nuts for alchemists and this list doesn't fix that. Also with lure, drag, and rough seas, he doesn't have to play the threat range game and it is hard to starve him for the ball. Engineers can be tough since reanimate is strong vs conditions and there is a lot of tough hide in that faction. I still think it's a 50/50 match heavily depending on who has the ball. It is also not really that great into the mirror since lure of gold really skews the threat range game plus they have a model that is essentially immune to fire.

 

Ok wow. I did not intend for this to turn into a full blow tactica but here you go. If you have any questions about the list let me know.

There are also 2 good smoke games on my YouTube channel that you can check out. 

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I play a lot of smoke in our current meta. And I agree with all of the previous response. except for two points. If you are going to take vet katalyst just take Og Katylist instead. He is a lot more functional on your team he can ball kill better by smashing a seismic kick through a croud as a last resort or even just as a mass knockdown. Plus Katylist gets a lot more work done in the scrum clearing the way and forcing conditions buy pushing opponents into aoe's.

The second point I disagree with is ever taking flask. Naja is again a much better ball killer when needed and the smoke cloud is redundant especially is you are useing Vitriol. The extra 2" melee makes a huge difference for closing of charging lanes. 

I run Smoke Naja Okatylist Mercury Calculus and either Vitriol or Venin.

Venin is a grood addition now. he is a good ball retriever. And is an easy audition to my tournement 10.

Holding smoke back and burning down your opponent with all the conditions are very difficult to deal with for any team mastering the "janky" angle goal is tough but once you get used to it. It is a lot of fun to pull the goal out of nowhere on 3inf from 20" 

 

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I like vKat with smoke. He hangs back more and only commits to the charge when he can land something devastating. 

I do like Naja more than Flask though. Such a good ball holder to kill time till the conditions tick down.

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So i 2-1ed our local tournament today. Ran Smoke, kat1, mercury, calculus, naja, and decimate in all 3 games. Im really liking hypnosis as a control play and decimate is useful as both damage and utility. I also found out from the local pundit that chemical breeze does not say wholly within when repositioning circles. This really helped with the control plan. I was misplaying and limiting my total circle movement.

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I still don't get oKatalyst. All the enemy needs to do is engage him with a 2 inch enemy that can KD him, and he is dealt with. If he stands up instead of moving he can't do anything basically. If he removes conditions with momentum, he doesn't burn anymore, reducing his potential. He can be good sometimes, but most teams can controll him really hard with not too much effort if they really want to. On the oppsite side vKat can deal momentous 4 damage on 3 net hits, plus the added aoe damage for other unfortunate enemies, and has the really important 2inch melee zone. But it's true that you have to play him much more carefully.

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oKat is one of the better (Probably currently the best) model in the Alchs. He has a 6 long playbook, with tac of 8. He threatens 9", Mo Push on 1, MO KD on 2, Non MO KD 2 AND 2 damage on 2, MO 2 damage and push on 5, MO EB on 5, Non MO KD/EB on 6. Hell I'd throw his playbook as maybe the best in the game, there is no bad results (That's not even all the results on his playbook)

His fast, does a ton of damage, spreads conditions, KD people, threatens far, etc. 4 influence is never poorly spent on him and that's not mentioning his 27 boxes. You're right and he can be controlled but I typically tend to avoid him into those matchups (Tapper, Corsair) spring to mind, but in both cass I'd be drafting a heavy football team anyhow. 

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oKat doesn't do 'a ton of damage' :P But maybe that's just me after playing brewers ;) oKat is great and all, but in our local meta most of the time he gets a KD from a 2" melee model and all of a sudden he isn't that great anymore. You can for some weird tricks like putting a fire AOE in front of him but that needs another activation to setup. For Smoke i much prefer vKat and Flash. If your opponent doesn't spread enough than you get a ton of free dmg. Also try sometimes Flask with Sic'em and Who Are Ya, that's dirty ;) BTW do you guys go for a 2 captain roster? Right now I'm having problem to include both captains in 1 roster as each captain wants a different mascot, also you want to take 2 Kats and at this point you have 4 spots left only :C

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He reliably does 8-11 damage for 4 influence, alchemists turns that's a lot,. more often then not you're hitting softened up targets due to condition pressure, etc. If you consistently play him into a lot of 2 melee that knocks him down I don't think it's oKats fault. 

Sic' Em with Flask has never not been good, no arguement from me. I only run Naja, there's totally argument for both captains in Alchemists though. 

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1 hour ago, Edek said:

oKat doesn't do 'a ton of damage' :P But maybe that's just me after playing brewers ;) oKat is great and all, but in our local meta most of the time he gets a KD from a 2" melee model and all of a sudden he isn't that great anymore. You can for some weird tricks like putting a fire AOE in front of him but that needs another activation to setup. For Smoke i much prefer vKat and Flash. If your opponent doesn't spread enough than you get a ton of free dmg. Also try sometimes Flask with Sic'em and Who Are Ya, that's dirty ;) BTW do you guys go for a 2 captain roster? Right now I'm having problem to include both captains in 1 roster as each captain wants a different mascot, also you want to take 2 Kats and at this point you have 4 spots left only :C

I'm kinda new to the game but I second the praise to OKat. I'm not saying Vkat is bad, because he is great too, but as Aaron said, Okat has a great playbook, his Mom KD is so usefull as well as external combustion.

 

Also what you said about Okat is true, if he's KD and in a 2 melee range he's tied up, but the same can be said for Vkat. You can forfeit his move and hit back with 2 Inf, but the free charge is lost and that is a lot of his potential.

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vKat has the option to clear conditions for momentum, Push the enemy and still perform a free charge. When oKat gets KD from 2", he also can clear conditions but he also clears Burning so he dmg output drops. Also vKat helps with inf which makes a difference. To be clear, I've been playing oKat a lot lately and he works wonders, but against teams like Fish, Farmers, Brewers and mirror i prefer vKat.

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Alright, I have stayed out of this as long as I can. 

On 9/30/2017 at 5:41 PM, STEPHENB said:

I play a lot of smoke in our current meta. And I agree with all of the previous response. except for two points. If you are going to take vet katalyst just take Og Katylist instead. He is a lot more functional on your team he can ball kill better by smashing a seismic kick through a croud as a last resort or even just as a mass knockdown. Plus Katylist gets a lot more work done in the scrum clearing the way and forcing conditions buy pushing opponents into aoe's.

The second point I disagree with is ever taking flask. Naja is again a much better ball killer when needed and the smoke cloud is redundant especially is you are useing Vitriol. The extra 2" melee makes a huge difference for closing of charging lanes. 

I run Smoke Naja Okatylist Mercury Calculus and either Vitriol or Venin.

10

This is a fundamentally different list. Its goal is 2-2 or 1-2 not 3-1 (Takeouts-Goals.) I could go on a long rant about how I think trying to get more than 4 points out of the ball is a fool's errand (at least against high-level players) but that is a totally different conversation.  I think this list is just better with Midas. In point of fact, my Midas list is Midas, Flask, Mercury, Vitriol, Flex. My flex players are Compound and Calculus.

Kat1 vs Kat2

I glazed over this a little bit above, but yes I agree with the fact that Kat1 is better than Kat2 at nearly everything. In fact, I talk about it quite extensively here. But the reason I play Kat2 is he kills himself which robs the opponent of momentum and spending his influence in useful ways. 

When it comes right down to it they are models that fulfill different roles. Kat1 is straight up one of the best brawlers in the entire game where Kat2 is a highly fragile Victory Point Missile. Kat1 wants nothing more than to get stuck in leveraging his high tac, low KD, and Pulses of fire to win the day while Kat2 loses an attack when he gets stuck in and doesn't want to fight anyone who doesn't have a condition.

4 hours ago, szendroib said:

I still don't get oKatalyst. All the enemy needs to do is engage him with a 2 inch enemy that can KD him, and he is dealt with. If he stands up instead of moving he can't do anything basically. If he removes conditions with momentum, he doesn't burn anymore, reducing his potential.

3

I suggest you drop one of your fire AOE's near him with Harry or Mercury then shake conditions and walk into the fire.

Naja vs Flask

I know I am in the minority of players that prefer Flask over Naja, but here are my reasons. Naja and Flask are equally survivable. When a model is Tac 6 5/0, 4/1, and 3/2 are statistically similar and the lower your tac goes the better 3/2 gets. Flask is in cover more than half the game and in a smoke list, you will always be dropping a cloud to jump into, so if you can use his it's like he brings an extra influence. Flask is a better damage dealer while Naja is a better ball killer. I consider them pretty equal. The thing that puts Flask over the top for me is that he makes a real player I am taking better. Flask use to give vitriol the speed buff for free and I was sad to see that go, but the extra influence on Mercury can be so clutch.

Brawling with Smoke

In a post-errata world, alchemists have lost so much of their once formidable brawling power. It is still doable, but so much harder than it once was. To make matters worse Smoke brings almost nothing to the brawl since she cannot contribute to the fight once it starts. This weakness compounded by the fact that if AOE throwers are spending their influence attacking or are being killed by the opponents players smoke cannot spend her influence moving clouds. It is really best to avoid the scrum or just win before it starts in earnest.

 

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5 minutes ago, TheCurkov said:

Alright, I have stayed out of this as long as I can. 

This is a fundamentally different list. Its goal is 2-2 or 1-2 not 3-1 (Takeouts-Goals.) I could go on a long rant about how I think trying to get more than 4 points out of the ball is a fool's errand (at least against high-level players) but that is a totally different conversation.  I think this list is just better with Midas. In point of fact, my Midas list is Midas, Flask, Mercury, Vitriol, Flex. My flex players are Compound and Calculus.

Kat1 vs Kat2

I glazed over this a little bit above, but yes I agree with the fact that Kat1 is better than Kat2 at nearly everything. In fact, I talk about it quite extensively here. But the reason I play Kat2 is he kills himself which robs the opponent of momentum and spending his influence in useful ways. 

When it comes right down to it they are models that fulfill different roles. Kat1 is straight up one of the best brawlers in the entire game where Kat2 is a highly fragile Victory Point Missile. Kat1 wants nothing more than to get stuck in leveraging his high tac, low KD, and Pulses of fire to win the day while Kat2 loses an attack when he gets stuck in and doesn't want to fight anyone who doesn't have a condition.

I suggest you drop one of your fire AOE's near him with Harry or Mercury then shake conditions and walk into the fire.

Naja vs Flask

I know I am in the minority of players that prefer Flask over Naja, but here are my reasons. Naja and Flask are equally survivable. When a model is Tac 6 5/0, 4/1, and 3/2 are statistically similar and the lower your tac goes the better 3/2 gets. Flask is in cover more than half the game and in a smoke list, you will always be dropping a cloud to jump into, so if you can use his it's like he brings an extra influence. Flask is a better damage dealer while Naja is a better ball killer. I consider them pretty equal. The thing that puts Flask over the top for me is that he makes a real player I am taking better. Flask use to give vitriol the speed buff for free and I was sad to see that go, but the extra influence on Mercury can be so clutch.

Brawling with Smoke

In a post-errata world, alchemists have lost so much of their once formidable brawling power. It is still doable, but so much harder than it once was. To make matters worse Smoke brings almost nothing to the brawl since she cannot contribute to the fight once it starts. This weakness compounded by the fact that if AOE throwers are spending their influence attacking or are being killed by the opponents players smoke cannot spend her influence moving clouds. It is really best to avoid the scrum or just win before it starts in earnest.

 

One problem with the Naja vs smoke discussion is that vitriol no longer has access to addition speed from being in cover. This was my main use for flask as well but with the vitriol changes putting her in cover with flask doesn't help her anymore when receiving the ball. My Midas line up looks just like yours, again exept for flask, with vitriol losing the speed he isnt as useful.

Flask is very good with Vet kat for the additional intensify and playing the 1TO - 2G game is a fun way to win it is a lot less reliable than playing for 2-2.  

unless there has been a ruling I haven't seen when Vet Kat uses witness me it doesn't deny your opponent MP they still get credit because it is still a take out.

Brawling with Smoke is a good way to lose a game. A most you send 2 players up to engage in comming foes (venin and Og Kat) holding mercury and Calculus back and slowing the opponent down with fire or picking dangerous targets to throw a blind into stops the push into your back line. But every guild you face requires a tweak to this strategy.

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51 minutes ago, STEPHENB said:

unless there has been a ruling I haven't seen when Vet Kat uses witness me it doesn't deny your opponent MP they still get credit because it is still a take out.

Both kats have low defensive stats. If the opponent ever gets to either kat they farm momentum off of his low def, high hp statline. By dying to witness me vkat denies that sort of farming.

Considering flask vs naja. I havent been using tactical advice well or enough. Ill have to try it. I did notice in the butchers game i had in our local tourney that the sic em charge i got with naja did less than a flask charge would have. It wouldve piled damage onto brisket 2. I had no way of interacting with her outide of naja (was running deci as union slot). I could see with vkat and flask that you wouldnt need another damage dealer and then could afford a 2" melee union slot (probably harry?). With harry and vkat i wouldve been able to interact with vbriket instead of losing to her snapshot threat.

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57 minutes ago, STEPHENB said:

One problem with the Naja vs smoke discussion is that vitriol no longer has access to addition speed from being in cover. This was my main use for flask as well but with the vitriol changes putting her in cover with flask doesn't help her anymore when receiving the ball. My Midas line up looks just like yours, again exept for flask, with vitriol losing the speed he isnt as useful.

Flask is very good with Vet kat for the additional intensify and playing the 1TO - 2G game is a fun way to win it is a lot less reliable than playing for 2-2.  

unless there has been a ruling I haven't seen when Vet Kat uses witness me it doesn't deny your opponent MP they still get credit because it is still a take out.

Brawling with Smoke is a good way to lose a game. A most you send 2 players up to engage in comming foes (venin and Og Kat) holding mercury and Calculus back and slowing the opponent down with fire or picking dangerous targets to throw a blind into stops the push into your back line. But every guild you face requires a tweak to this strategy.

This exactly. I’m personally not a huge fan of Naja, and that’s one of the main reasons. I play Mist occasionally as well, so the free cloud is always a help. And having personally played against @TheCurkov‘s Smoke team, his plan is pretty much what I follow. It’s a pain to play into.

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11 hours ago, TheCurkov said:

image.png.bf403680a7e232b0bfd17522098e1996.png

Thanks my mistake. This is good to know I kept giving my opponent the MP.

You have a lot of good points about Vet Katylist I just find him really easy to shut down just by engaging him with more than one player. He just doesn't have the playbook to effectively get more than one player out of his melee in order to get his charge off and that shuts down a lot of his dmg. 

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About Flask, do you guys had any problem handling his "overheat" death ? I know you can use him to rush in the middle of the opponent so that he "explode" there. But sometimes it is so scary to have him in the middle of my own guys and thinking he might be killed there and hurting 1-2 of my other models

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