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WhiteYin

General Blacksmith tips

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Well I got my 'smiths in yesterday (the hard graft of painting begins, starting with Anvil) but currently only the one game under my belt (6-12 loss against Butchers)

So it looks like I'm only aiming to try and win the painting side of these October tournaments haha but would like to pick the brains of people who have used them a bit more. I have and still am reading everything on these forums but want to see if I have a few concepts right etc.

Captains, currently I've seen generally people pick either Anvil or Ferrite. If I'm right this is mostly due to them being more universally useable (tough hide or movement AND movement crippling). I imagine Furnace will be good against some teams as captain but getting the idea he's just good as he is. Stupidly I never actually used Anvil's (captain of my game) legendary as I never felt I could capitalise it (as it would only really apply to himself and sledge at best)

Having said that, Furnace is pretty sweet. In said game the rather "looks comically set up but honest to god wasn't" Furnace found himself in the middle of A&G, Boar, Boiler AND Princess. With "one at a time lads" and his legendary the big lug only took 9 damage (from full) by the end of them. Sure his death (having Ox then join in as well... my mate is cruel like that) as Butchers were easily going first from the pounding he took but that's damn impressive in my book. I know it isn't his job but he did well.

Is it generally a good idea to use “While the Iron is Hot” as an opening play? Not EVERY game as you don’t want predictability and sometimes it won’t be needed. I guess you’d want to load Anvil up with 3 INF and get as many as you can in it.

With that said, what’s people’s thoughts on positioning for the ‘smiths? I played it safe and just keep master with their apprentice, and I get that’s likely what you will want anyway. I have a feeling that they will play a bit like Collodi from Malifaux. The concept of “The Bubble” and funnily enough their ranges are pretty much the same. Keep within 6” (Ferrite and Iron have a nicer 10”) to get buffs etc and the harder part is when to strike outside that “Bubble”. Especially when your apprentices are made of delicate paper (for the most part). Would you have Anvil, Sledge, Furnace and Cinder pretty much mid then have Ferrite and Iron separate but either side of the group and within 10” of each other.

Also think it is a safe bet that they tend to aim for a 2-2 style play as they come across as powerful single hitters. By which I mean if you take Iron who can with help become a locomotive with 8”/12” (typically 6”/10”) and despite being lower in the kick, has his heroic and likely goal distance to help. But having done that he will lose his gusto and his job is mostly done. Same with Sledge, after you have loaded someone and him up, yeah you could get a juicy 10+ damage off but after that you will be back to what you will generally be doing. I don’t see it being difficult (in a vacuum) for Anvil and Furnace duo teams getting you 2 kills then both Ferrite and Iron getting you the 2 goals.

Anyway I’ve plucked from my brain enough, especially since I’m sitting at my work’s desk :D

Any comment on the above and in general is much appreciated.

 

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It sounds like you've got the gist of it. The only thing id suggest in the rest of your early games, until you feel more confident with them, is grouping up more. You mention only getting Anvil's Legendary on himself and Sledge for example. That sounds like you need to bunch up a little more. I tend to play the smiths with a clump in the centre who will do most of the fighting and then a few of the faster players orbiting around them (currently that's Ferrite & Cinder). Means you will more often trigger rules like Sentinel and you care less about enemy bonuses from Ganging Up and Crowding Out because of One at a Time Lads.

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I use While the iron is hot pretty often. Either once the scrum is going on in the middle, or I hard cast it turn 1. 

I hear people sprint Iron on the back of their line to push everyone 2” further, is that a thing? 

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Dunno about that. I know I used him to fly up, score a goal then sweep in (it's amazing having an iron clad locomotive sprinting 10" then knee sliding another 10"" from there to pin a model or 2 from the back whilst the rest smash in from the front.

But I can see how it's ideal only having one war front but butchers made that hard

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I've played a few games with the Blacksmiths and it sounds like we're experiencing the same learning curve. Stuff I've figured out below:

Captain Selection - Ferrite or Furnace. Ferrite is the Blacksmiths best goal threat and she usually needs 4-5 INF on the turn you want to make that goal run; 2-3 for movement/attacks - 1 for Acrobatic and 1 for the shot. I've found Furnace to be the only Master that can reliably get TO's with a stack of INF, if you opponent leaves the ball on a player Furnace can reach, he is great at retrieving it. Anvil seems to get the least done with more than 2-3 INF so I rarely make him Captain anymore.

Positioning - I try to keep Anvil and Furnace about 6" apart so Sledge can move from one to the other (depending on the set up for a TO) so he can always benefit from a Sentinel aura. 

Opening Turn - I always use either "While the Iron is Hot" or the Iron bump forward trick - at least 70% of the time I'll do both. I've found the Blacksmiths want to gain control of the center of the pitch and that extra 4" of movement gets them there first. With Ferrites Legendary up and those extra 4" Furnace and Sledge  can threat 15" from the deployement line, send Furnace into an poorly positioned opponent first for some set up followed by Sledge and you have a shot to get enough MP to go first Turn 2.    

These are the opinions of a grump old gamer - your mileage may vary.

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Funny that I played around 10 games before I played my first "standard deployment" Blacksmiths.  And WOW they're good when they can group together.  I literally have never used "while the iron's hot" until this last game, because with the "Pitch Formations" deployment, they're usually in Master-Apprentice pairs on each line, and way too far to affect each other easily. 

But pretty much I used the "While the Iron's Hot", and Iron bumping everyone to get 4 " of movement forward, had Ferrite steal the ball and score a goal, and now in the 2nd turn (against Hammer), I'm running Ferrite back and then having Anvil dodge everyone backwards to regroup and lure Hammer forward (we played on Vassal, so paused after turn 2 start). 

With Pitch Formations, I've always found putting Anvil and Sledge last on the middle line to be most useful.  Usually I kick with Cinder, adn threaten to steal the ball with "Kill the Ball", so the opponent HAS to get the ball, that means I set up the victim with Anvil, and then the next turn is the person frantically trying to save that target before Sledge gets to him (usually unsuccessfully).  In Pitch Formations, unless I receive, Ferrite doesn't really get to do much besides hand out a few weak points, gain some momentum, and score a return goal.  Cinder and Iron also do well in scoring a goal later in the game.  and Furnace is always on the deploy line handing out Tooled Up and One at a Time Lads.

Gonna play them in a mini tournament this weekend just to test them out more!  I'm LOVING the design of the team.  They're so quirky and different than every team out there.  Great job @Jamie P and team!

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Good points

I did get an impression when I played that although Anvil is a Master and as such comfertably above average as players go, he didn't FEEL like captain material. Now against butchers I guess Tough Hide was the best shout (if I had actually used it apart from everyone elses) but yeah he works well with the smaller INF giving so your losing out on the +2 as well. If anything, thought a safe first game captain. Shall see, as said, mileage will vary.

Yeah wanted to use the Iron bump but as he was my goal scorer he was too far front, did it to an enemy mind you (Shank) so got something out of it.

Sadly I think I've only ever seen 1 game where my opponent didn't immediately go for the ball so Cinder's ball killing likely won't come up much for me Turn 1. But yeah I was curious who to kick-off with and general opinion is Ferrite and Cinder. I figured it would be the safer bet with Ferrite. With Get Over here (with positioning you could get something of an iron bump out of this, wiether that works out better depends) you can get 2 players up, if using "passing the Mantle" you could safely pop her Legendary turn 1 to get everyone up the board early before switching out. So yeah will likely try her next. Especially as next game is looking like Farmers, I feel getting up the board to control their positioning (as it's 2 scrum teams for the best part) and even threatening poorly positioned harvest markers.

But yup overall I'm well happy to have them, coming from Hunters (who I still love but damn, like a mother-in-law your trying desperately to win over) feels great :D

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Rendorin said:

Then the dilemma of which Captain to replace...

That's an easy question. The one you are currently using? ;)

We are actually getting interesting/difficult choices now. If you are playing against a high armour team, you'll want to take Furnace with Hearth, otherwise it'll be be Anvil and Ferrite. As each Master changes the way the team plays, you can build the team to counter the guilds you are facing.

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6 minutes ago, Rendorin said:

Then the dilemma of which Captain to replace...

Agreed on it being a dilemna - which is a very good thing. Just the addition Hearth and Alloy puts Blacksmiths in a good place for options.

I think for me the Captain will be either Ferrite or Furnace; IMHO, they will get more work done solo with 4-5 INF than either Anvil or Hearth could and sometimes you need access to a good solo activation.

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I think thats why "Pass the Mantle" on is great. Like all of them it isn't an auto take but starting on someone who "isn't captain material" then switching could be pretty beneficial. Turn 1-2 Hearth captaincy to get the reach to hit folk then swap to Ferrite (or vice versa) etc.

 

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13 hours ago, WhiteYin said:

But yup overall I'm well happy to have them, coming from Hunters (who I still love but damn, like a mother-in-law your trying desperately to win over) feels great :D

 

 

Amen!  Coming from Hunters, on the one hand it's great to see how these new teams (Farmers, Blacksmiths) start off IMMEDIATELY interesting, fun, and COMPETITIVE, even with just 6 players (that was the original argument with Hunters that they only had 8 to start with).  On the other hand, The fact that after over a year and many erratas, Hunters are just average (granted, some argue "very strong", some say "still sucks", so it's probably somewhere in the middle :P ) and still have some very bad models.  

Hearth/Allow will definitely make it tough to decide, but ningu hit the nail on the head.  We now have lots of options for the various teams we play against, even with just 8 models.

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Had a few games now (3) Issues I'm having

-Strong start but weaker mid to end game

-Struggling for that second/third kill. Once Sledge and Co charge in and get the kill or make it so that next turn I WILL get the kill. I find it hard to get the set up etc and damage again to get the following.

-Goals I'm having KINDA the same problem as killing. Once I get the goal I haven't been able to get/lock in the ball for my second. My practice game with Farmers came in at 4-12 (I scored followed up by an imediate goal from the Farmers. Then it was 2 take outs and another goal to finish for them) Iron harassed and took the ball and all that but I just couldn't get away from Jack etc. Which I get is likely the point of Jack so I'm not too fussed (plus it was a practice game so I'm happy to do stupid things, like sending Sledge in agains't said scarecrow THEN asking his Def... immediate regret)

-Furnace. I know I'm not using him well, when to use One at a Time, playbook and general how to use him. As with Cinder, though I've started to put into place what I read here about making Cinder the kicker for the threat idea.

-Whilst the Iron is hot. I've only been comfertable doing it once. Maybe because I've only been up against fairly melee guilds but disengaging always seems risky as your setting up a charge for them next turn. But maybe I'm not doing it wrong but ultimately not sure. I suppose I could do it twice turn 1+2 and just haven't yet dunno.

Things I feel I'm doing well

-Anvil, Unless my opponent has thrown EVERYTHING needed, I've kept the big guy a complete pain in the Buckwheat to kill. Against Butchers for the second time, I healed Anvil from 4hp to full and tying up Boar (and others) for 99% of the game. Even against Farmers it took over half the game to get him.

-Ferrite and Iron - I feel I know how to use them. Great wingers and I've even went ballsy enough to pop Ferrite in to harass with her Disarms etc (helped keep Anvil alive a few times) Iron has been my goal kicker for all my games so far, hasn't let me down yet, the speed of him is great to see and for first timers to seeing, great fun :D

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Had my 4th game.

I've found myself in the position that I feel I know the team now, still got the same issues as mention above, but that leads onto this point.

Think now my problem is likely just facing the other teams. As much as i've read the cards for every guild to death so fairly comfertable that I know what everyone does, it's actually playing against them with these new styles.

Last night seen me face Masons and it felt like fighting myself. I know in the fluff it says Blacksmiths use more practical armour to the showy stuff of the Masons... but I think you might want to double check that :D But I've always hated facing Masons ESPECIALLY when you are kicking off to them as you will likely not see control of the ball until it's hit your goal.

Things that went wrong

I'll get the weakest, uncontrollable point out the way first. The dice. For a good long time in the game I could roll hardly anything above 3 (Cinder for ALL of her attacks this game got at least 2-3 2s or less when using only her 5 Tac) The very dice my mates call filth for rolling too many 5s and 6s during 40k seem to showing their allegiance.

I forgot the bloody monkey :D Charged Furnace in against Brick as i needed to tie up that counter-charge but Marbles just came in and pushed him out, making furnace a bit of a fool. Had I remembered or thought he could counter then even remembered or asked about his playbook I would have kept the melee range down.

Conditions. This is an odd one and likely exclusing of this game, I kept forgetting conditions (mostly knock down) but that was because we never used tokens (for some reason). So when Iron scored a goal and the kick off ball landed within sprint range of Anvil, realise the frustration when you mind you used your only gained MP to slide away than to stand the old guy up, considering it wasn't really a NEEDED slide (just getting our precious apprentices into cover whilst in enemy lines)

Momentum. Since playing Blacksmiths this hasn't been an issue, but this has been my issue against Masons since even Hunters. I can't get enough MP out of them. With their fairly turtle play style (ESPECIALLY when they recieve) they just keep passing the ball between them getting free MP while you're scared to be the first to engage. and what happens when you do engage? monkey push :D

 

So this looks to be a War of attrition with the Masons, your rather hoping to the be recieveer as well I feel. But any tips to deal with our fellow heavily armoured brethern? I can only use the origional 6 and I'm about to face a LOT of Masons are there is like 6 going to the tournament I've getting ready for (Gods help me)

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1 hour ago, WhiteYin said:

So this looks to be a War of attrition with the Masons, your rather hoping to the be recieveer as well I feel. But any tips to deal with our fellow heavily armoured brethern? I can only use the origional 6 and I'm about to face a LOT of Masons are there is like 6 going to the tournament I've getting ready for (Gods help me)

Only 1 game vs Masons with my Smiths, but it felt okay. 

I used the original 6 with Ferrite as captain, vs Honour masons. 

In this game I used Ferrite basically to try and turn off the sisters. Winning initiative often helps in this. Going into Honour and Harmony and disarming them both feels like a huge swing. 

Anvil is basically unkillable for them. (Without Tooled up & Marbles assist). 

Cinder and furnace shut down Flint completely in my game. Stripping him of his armor makes him 3/0 vs Cinder, which is scary if he ever picks up the ball. 

So far I feel if my enemy has no real way to deal ranged damage, and I receive, the game is at least a 50/50. 

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Hm, well seems we had the same game.

Ferrite was my captain. My logic was I didn't want a scrum as such so went for Ferrite (another reason is I've actually yet to use her as Captain) to get tthe speed when I wanted to go football and try and get either 3-0 goals or 2-2.

Although Sledge hit flint for a full playbook before rolling dice (piledriver and vengeance) he totally whiffed his charge litterlaly only getting 1 result after armour etc came off. Yes my dice was that bad for the majority of the game (well I actually hit 3s so was better...oh wait, he's "Charming" I guess he looks just as good after taking 8 damage to the face).

Just need more games overall is likely it. Another thing I was trying to move things a long. I managed to sleep in and be late for the game so I likely wasn't thinking quite as hard as I should have been ha ha.

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I got about a dozen games in (including a 3 round tournament) with the Blacksmiths (and I main Masons/Union before that) and I generally agree with what you've found so far.  First kill, super easy (with opponents screaming: "7 MOMENTOUS DAMAGE?! THAT'S BROKEN!" :P ), first goal, relatively easy if I receive or counterscore.  The next few kills and goals are usually hard because you don't have time to set up as quickly and a good opponent will start killing your apprentices no matter how you protect them.  

I think the key is to use Sledge and Furnace to do some ball-stealing duty after the first kill/goal.  They both have 2" reach and tackle on 1, plus good kicks.  So they're the best at getting the ball even from the likes of Brisket or Velocity.  if you keep them somewhat central, they can switch to ball retrieval duty and pass it to Cinder or Ferrite (or just kick it far away where Cinder can kill the ball for Ferrite later).

On the killing side, putting 4 on Iron, with some debuffing from Ferrite or tooled up from Furnace usually means I can get my 2nd kill that way, after Sledge has died.  

Against Masons is tough, because of the stupid 2 armor for most of them, but Furnace/Sledge can get the ball from Flint relatively easily (even with DEF 4/ARM 1 and close control) and Iron's double push (with close control) will waste 1 INF from Flint to WTG back in, if he hasn't done it already to get to you.  

Hope that helps!

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I think playing into morticians is super hard. Any team that has ranged character plays like ballista/corsair are an issue.

If they take a+g and can pull you out of position somehow (see above, lure etc) then they can wrap and get 8mp from them. Due to the way blacksmiths work you have to set players up so there is some telegraphing about who they need to target.

 

Still looking to get to grips with them, only a few games in....but any suggestions for ideas into these match ups is appreciated

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16 minutes ago, Stephen78 said:

I think playing into morticians is super hard. Any team that has ranged character plays like ballista/corsair are an issue.

If they take a+g and can pull you out of position somehow (see above, lure etc) then they can wrap and get 8mp from them. Due to the way blacksmiths work you have to set players up so there is some telegraphing about who they need to target.

 

Still looking to get to grips with them, only a few games in....but any suggestions for ideas into these match ups is appreciated

Yes this is what I feel are te hardest matchups on paper. Maybe not Morticians, but definately Hunters, Ballista engineers, Smoke alchemists and Corsair. 

Corsair is a bastard to any team though. 

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I'm thinking against armour teams such as masons, Ferrite and Furnace are going to play bigger roles for setting up.Furnace should go in first and damage (even just 1) as many as he can to get the -1 Arm. Then Ferrite would need to swing round and take the other with Weak Point. One at a Time lads could be used to keep Ferrite a bit safer and better chance of hitting if there is too many crowd out. But always hated facing Masons so hopefully smiths are the team to get back at them.

 

49 minutes ago, Mattias said:

Yes this is what I feel are te hardest matchups on paper. Maybe not Morticians, but definately Hunters, Ballista engineers, Smoke alchemists and Corsair. 

Corsair is a bastard to any team though. 

Generally I would agree, and to a degree I still am as I haven't faced him yet, BUT i think with One at a Time Lads, Corsair's mosh pit won't be as scary. All you'd need to do is out MP him to keep that AOE up. Furnance would likely need to be captain and likely take a fair bit of our INF to keep handing out burning (every little helps also to try and get him to spend that MP) and reducing the odd point of ARM out with his Legendary turn.

 

But good to see I'm not too far away from the general par in terms of issues etc. Not long now until the tournament and I've still over half a team to paint...

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To go first, If you have Corsair and Co in OatL and you have some folk in it, letting Corsair go first will mean the guarantee death of someone. OatL isn't a life saver but if Anvil is said person taking the beating, he can tank it rather well if it isn't the whole guild smashing him.

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My first game with Blacksmiths was against Engineers. Ballista, Mother, Velocity, Hoist, Locust and Ratchet.

Found out that Smithys generate a crap ton of momentum, so honestly any sort of effect is easily taken off via momentum. Anvil came out big in this game and really lead the charge up the middle. But before that I got Ferrite in to score a goal but found it hard to make her effective after, she was mostly used at that point to move Iron around. Furnace was great, along with Cinder to hold the middle. Being able to tackle with Cinder from 6" away is huge, and I mean huge. I was able to close the game with a Cinder goal.

Ballista is insane though, I must admit, Sledge couldn't take him out in a turn, and that's with Anvils help. Mine field really dictates play.

Hoist and Locust are tough too, Hoist with tough hide and reanimate and Locust with reanimate is annoying.

Other than that I didn't have too much trouble. Had to sacrifice a goal [like I usually always have to do] to start the pain train.

12-4 final score.
2 Goals and 2 Takeouts for Blacksmiths
1 Goal for Engineers

[yay first post!]

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