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How to buff Angel?

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In a tournament this past weekend I left her off my 10 and I can't say I missed her...

That said, in an Escalation League match, just for fun, I was able to hit a 6 dice, 12" Angel goal. :)

Also, if we lose Gutter in the Union event, I would LOVE to see a Vet Angel hit the pitch. Something inspired by Greyscales' teaching.

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31 minutes ago, skcpae said:

Also, if we lose Gutter in the Union event, I would LOVE to see a Vet Angel hit the pitch. Something inspired by Greyscales' teaching.

This could get very dark, I like it.

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2 hours ago, skcpae said:

Also, if we lose Gutter in the Union event, I would LOVE to see a Vet Angel hit the pitch. Something inspired by Greyscales' teaching.

I'm really hopeful for a vAngel regardless of how we get it that brings the guild back from Corsair's brutality

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I know this thread might be a bit old now, but I got around to trying Angel and loved her. Like others I found her game a bit more subtle, in that she presents a threat that must be dealt with (and simply engaging her isn't it).

I'm a fan of 'trap' or 'sink' models that require excessive opponent resources to deal with but can't be ignored. vOx, Ghast, etc. Angel fit that bill nicely.

With Nimble she was too hard to hit to do a lot to her. My opponent couldn't afford to leave her alone though lest she get a snapshot. She did a lot of work by simply being there, and really fit into Sharks gameplan of putting as many threats forward as possible. She's gone from being an ignored player to an include in my games :-)

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So as a non fish player.. what do you guys not like about Angel? She has a super reliable, long kick. 5/0 isn't easy to deal with especially when she has Nimble, seems like a solid kicker for a fish team? 

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17 minutes ago, ForestRambo said:

So as a non fish player.. what do you guys not like about Angel? She has a super reliable, long kick. 5/0 isn't easy to deal with especially when she has Nimble, seems like a solid kicker for a fish team? 

That's not her problem. When compared with players like Sakana and Greyscales, they both have a similar goal threat range, but Sakana and Greyscales are better at getting the ball back. Sakana has a 10" threat range with 2" melee, higher attack  and anatomical; and Greyscales has Ball's Gone, and Unpredictable. A vanilla striker isn't that useful in a team full of strikers, meaning that she struggles to find a place in most people's teams.

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42 minutes ago, ningu said:

That's not her problem. When compared with players like Sakana and Greyscales, they both have a similar goal threat range, but Sakana and Greyscales are better at getting the ball back. Sakana has a 10" threat range with 2" melee, higher attack  and anatomical; and Greyscales has Ball's Gone, and Unpredictable. A vanilla striker isn't that useful in a team full of strikers, meaning that she struggles to find a place in most people's teams.

That's fair. I guess as I'm playing a lot of hunters I just get a little jaded at a 5 dice 10" kick.

But then jaecar activates, then life is all good. 

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On 11/27/2017 at 9:12 AM, ForestRambo said:

So as a non fish player.. what do you guys not like about Angel? She has a super reliable, long kick. 5/0 isn't easy to deal with especially when she has Nimble, seems like a solid kicker for a fish team? 

It's not that Angel is a bad model. Situationally, she's amazing. If I receive against Butchers or Theron, I'm going to run her to force my opponent to choose between her threat and Shark's.

The main issue with her is how inflexible she is. Her options are pretty much to run towards the goal, Super Shot, and shoot. Without Acrobatics or Shadowlike or something similar, she has no way disengaging or altering her threat whatsoever. Meanwhile Sakana can farm momentum, recover the ball, provide cover, has reach, has Poised, and can dodge easily off of his playbook. Greyscales has Where'd They Go, reach, and Unpredictable. And both captains provide kicking a 4/8 kick themselves.

So while Angel certainly has use as a Turn one goal threat and persistent Snap Shot threat, she doesn't bring nearly as much to the table as the other options Fish have and she doesn't stack up well against other strikers. If she had a Tackle with dodges somewhere in her playbook or some interaction with passing, I think you see her a lot more. Until then, she's a niche player who is admittedly strong enough at that niche to warrant a spot in a tournament 10 (at least she makes it into mine :))

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On 11/27/2017 at 3:25 AM, ForestRambo said:

That's fair. I guess as I'm playing a lot of hunters I just get a little jaded at a 5 dice 10" kick.

But then jaecar activates, then life is all good. 

It would be like getting another high damage, INF hungry model that doesn't have traps, range, back to the shadows, furious, or armor buffs. Might not be bad but when you've got Jaecar, Chaska, and Seenah in the wings then why bother?

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Couldn't just giving Angel the 2" reach that her spear should probably provide be a big help?  If she's able to reliably counterattack with that tackle, she'd be a much safer place to put the ball, especially at her defensive stats.  Would that be too good?

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She rarely has to worry about needing a counter attack to recover a ball stolen off her because she never holds onto it long enough to ever have it stolen. Frankly whilst having a 2" melee is always better than a 1" and make her a threat to 1" ball carriers it would not really change her up as she would still be an Inf hungry one trick pony competing with Greyscales and Sakana for a slot.

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The problem with "just give her 2" and dodges" imo, and what I think I was saying in the OP (it's been a minute), is that doing that makes her just compete with Sakana/Greyscales and takes away her weaknesses while SFG have been known to have a philosophy of "don't shore up the weakness, make the strength better"

If she was to compete with Greyscales and Sakana that's expecting 3 characters with the same design space to compete with each other for space on a roster, which means one will always be the worst and left out. Right now Sakana and Greyscales have different niches within the scoring profile. Sakana is better against armor and supporting his team while Greyscales is focused on himself and more slippery. 

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She is already competing with Greyscales and Sakana for a place however and unless she or they undergo fundamental changes she will always be competing with them.

As it stands however I don't think her strength can be buffed enough to make her stand out as anything more than filler on a roster for the rare scenario in which a 5/10 kick is needed.

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Given that Greyscales and Sakana both have ways to cover more ground than 8", could she use a way to get an extra few Inches of movement?

6/8 with no built-in threat or movement extension is deceptively slow, even with the longest and most accurate kick in the game.

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I’ve been running one team, regardless of matchup, since Jac hit.  Mainly due to not having the other fish models painted (until now!) 

shark, salt, angel, greyscales, Sakana and Jac

most if you are probably throwing your hands up in frustration or disgust at that team - but necessity has been the mother of invention so to speak.

in this team angel scores late turn 1 when I receive - and is then parked in snapshot threat range as others have outlined above.  She attracts a couple of opposing models trying to murder her, and this generally opens enough gaps on the rest of the field for shark, greyscales and Sakana to score 2 more by the end of turn 2/first activation of 3.  Salt and jac cover the back door and collect the ball. 

Angel has been excellent for me, but then I’ve never tried anything else 

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So I played Angel for the first time in a while yesterday in a Corsair list and she was incredibly underwhelming. I never wanted to give her a full allotment of influence because she's so easy to disrupt and so bad at doing anything besides shooting a goal, including recovering the ball since she's so vulnerable to counter attacks. Meanwhile, Sakana shredded armor, did a bit of damage, farmed momentum, and ultimately scored my only goal of the game.

What I would like to see is Angel become better as a ball recovery model so that she has something else to do with influence without just becoming Greyscales or Sakana 2.0. First, I would take Ball's Gone from Greyscales and put it on Angel. Greyscales already has reach, a Tackle on two, and Where'd They Go. I so rarely use Ball's Gone on him that I think this doesn't hurt him that much while giving Angel a new tool to recover the ball. Second, I would give her a bonus charge against a model holding the ball (think +0/+2 when charging). Now Angel has a very specific, long-distance threat that allows her to get up to Ball's Gone, allowing her to get through Close Control and get the ball off of her before she gets countered.

So Angel would become a model designed to score long range goals, snap shot, and recover the ball, all while maintaining her weaknesses of being fragile, bad at disengaging, having limited effectiveness when she isn't around the ball, and lacking reach.

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So I had a game against the Butchers on Tuesday and chose to run Angel with Shark rather than Sakana. I was benefited by my opponent focussing a little too strongly on countering the Fish doing football than being aggressive, but Angel actually proved to be a boon for a change.

She scored three times, one normal goal and two snap shots. Thanks to cover and nimble after her turn 1 goal run she actually held up well against a charge from vOx.

Her best bit though was her two turn two snapshots enabled in part by the ridiculously good Seize The Initiative card to escape the melee with Ox (the opponent was forced to choose between using his dodge to move on oBrisket to pick up the free ball that Greyscales had easy threat on or keep Angel in a melee zone).

I think still think there are far more teams you don't want to play her into but at least she does seem to have some game in corner cases.

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