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Ik-tornado

How to buff Angel?

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She was going to do well taking first turn goal then do nothing the rest of the game while sitting at snapshot range, then she took an arrow to the knee, well a pinned. So instead she just did nothing and never reached snapshot range. 

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I think the problem with trying to play Angel as the ultimate snap shooter is that her putting up her defence and shooting stats requires an activation and before then she is just a low health Def 5+ 1" melee model that a dedicated KDer or just a propped beater can rip apart.

Worse still you telegraph your intent with her when you give her Inf at the start of turn as she is one a one trick pony.

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On 9/28/2017 at 10:59 PM, Ascobol said:

Short to the match against JJ Layfield. I knew how good he is. And I knew Engis have the better odds to win. (personal opinion) That's why I decided not to go Corsair, what would have been "the standard choice". I thought I have to go full risk/reward and it payed off. I played Shark Tentacles Greyscales Sakana Siren and Angel. He played Ballista Mother Compound Hoist Ratchet and vVelocity (picked her last pick after i called Angel) He was suprised by my model choices and I think he really didn't expect my list. I did a snapshot goal with Angel in Turn 1 which had only 40,xx% chance to succeed. I did it because I knew I have to put up very high pressure or I will loose. Could have waited and just score next turn, but this is a lot if and when. I then started next turn and scored again with Shark and Legendary with 80% chance. 8-0 what allowed me to go full pressure on the ball. Then I missed a goal with similar odds, think this makes up for the snapshot turn 1 (again If and when) The next shot was a success 12-2. He was a little suprised and told me he hasn't seen something like this before. AND YES I KNOW I WAS LUCKY. Maybe @JJLayfield himself can write a little to the match. Don't want to embezzle something by not remember correctly.

 

 

 

Hey mate. 

You played the right game. 100% agree and will no fault you or belittle the result by saying it was pure luck. To be honest, if you had played Corsair you were playing into my hands. Shark is an easier match up but delivers the long odd chances to shut the game down before I can get going and control you out; which is exactly what you did.

The snap shot was worse than 40% purely because you had to pass into angel first who was engaged... closer to 25% I think based on the 5+ pass needed followed by the snap shot. I personally would not have gone for it, however, if you did go for it and make it, you got the turn around goal with shark next turn most likely... which you did... if you had missed... well you were locked out. If you didn't take the shot... the ball was locked on Sakana deep... and again... I control you out. You took the right choice and fortune favours the brave. It was a cracking game and I really enjoyed it. If it had continued I think I won on clock purely by having 20+ minutes on you at the end... but again, you went for the shots that would lock it down, and lock it down fast. 

The first goal definitely set the tone though and had me having to back peddle. If that had missed different game. 

Lets game again sometime :)

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Hei JJ,

I'm looking forward to our next game. Maybe at Steamcon? The pass itself was 80% the snapshot itself 40,7%. What is total of 32%´. So yes, not that secure and if one thinks he can win anyway you better not do it. But I knew I would lose anyway, if I don't put up high pressure I went for it and luckily it worked. Could have run outside with Sakana and try to win starting roll. Then score and try on to win from there. But this is IF, When, Then, Could....

So I tried my 50% ( either it works or it doesn't = 50/50). :D

 

@Ik-tornado please don't give up on her. The first few times I tried her, I was also disapointed. Sometimes it's not good to play her. Angel is not an auto-include like Greyscales is in my lists. Hunters can handle an Angel better then many other guilds. (Traps, Snared, KD, Pinned, Snipe,.....)

But when she did score, she already did what she had to do. Everything else is nice.

After that just try to bring her into snapshotrange. If it doesn't work use her as an empty activation. When Theron pinned her, remove conditions put nimble up and move base to base. Still, hitting DEF6 models is INF inefficient.TAC6 against DEF6: 1hit 66,51% 2hits 26,32% 3hits 6,228% 4hits 0,87% .... And the most important when Angel is pinned that means Shark, Sakana, Greyscales, Corsair (litterally everybody else) is not. Additional, engaged models can't charge, so if she survives still engaging, Theron can't just charge, he has to free himself first.

I trade a model for a goal. So I always calculate with loosing the model which scored the goal and try to play them as if they won't get TO.

The Gameplan is to make 3 Goals, how they are done is secondary. I do not play Snapshot as primary choice for scoring.  It's just the additional option which the opponent has to handle.

 

I also would recomend to play the models you are most comfortable with on Tournaments. For me, Tournaments are no testing enviroment. (personal opinion). If you still want to give Angel a shot, try to test her in your local meta. As I said, the first few games I was really disapointed of Angel ( 4 Games she did nothing, 5th Game she scored a goal. From there I developed with her from game to game)

 

I guess what I want to say is:

It's not a question if Angel needs a buff or not. I doesn't see any need. In her role she is balanced.(personal opinion)

The more interessting question is: Who is willing to field this role and it's playstyle and who isn't. I am. I do. And I will go on doing so.

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2 hours ago, Ascobol said:

please don't give up on her. The first few times I tried her, I was also disapointed. Sometimes it's not good to play her. Angel is not an auto-include like Greyscales is in my lists. Hunters can handle an Angel better then many other guilds. (Traps, Snared, KD, Pinned, Snipe,.....)

But when she did score, she already did what she had to do. Everything else is nice.

After that just try to bring her into snapshotrange. If it doesn't work use her as an empty activation. When Theron pinned her, remove conditions put nimble up and move base to base. Still, hitting DEF6 models is INF inefficient.TAC6 against DEF6: 1hit 66,51% 2hits 26,32% 3hits 6,228% 4hits 0,87% .... And the most important when Angel is pinned that means Shark, Sakana, Greyscales, Corsair (litterally everybody else) is not. Additional, engaged models can't charge, so if she survives still engaging, Theron can't just charge, he has to free himself first.

I trade a model for a goal. So I always calculate with loosing the model which scored the goal and try to play them as if they won't get TO.

The Gameplan is to make 3 Goals, how they are done is secondary. I do not play Snapshot as primary choice for scoring.  It's just the additional option which the opponent has to handle.

 

I also would recomend to play the models you are most comfortable with on Tournaments. For me, Tournaments are no testing enviroment. (personal opinion). If you still want to give Angel a shot, try to test her in your local meta. As I said, the first few games I was really disapointed of Angel ( 4 Games she did nothing, 5th Game she scored a goal. From there I developed with her from game to game)

 

I guess what I want to say is:

It's not a question if Angel needs a buff or not. I doesn't see any need. In her role she is balanced.(personal opinion)

The more interessting question is: Who is willing to field this role and it's playstyle and who isn't. I am. I do. And I will go on doing so.

She actually never got into goal range to make a shot. Had to first turn pass out to Greyscales so someone could make a shot in turn 2. Maybe I'll try her into non Hunters but that's all I faced yesterday. 

Unfortunately tournaments are just about the only time I get to try out models in an environment where I'll see the weakness. There's a bit of a skill/experience gap between me and the locals I get to play. 

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2 hours ago, Ik-tornado said:

She actually never got into goal range to make a shot. Had to first turn pass out to Greyscales so someone could make a shot in turn 2. Maybe I'll try her into non Hunters but that's all I faced yesterday. 

Unfortunately tournaments are just about the only time I get to try out models in an environment where I'll see the weakness. There's a bit of a skill/experience gap between me and the locals I get to play. 

Probably because you don't play quality models like Angel against them. They'll never up their game if you keep the bar low.

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In looking back on my match all week, I think it would have been better if I went for the goal sooner. Waiting for the standard last activation allowed Theron to pin her and prevent her from getting in range all game. Getting her the ball earlier with the teamwork needed for range would have been better than the standard last activation goal the rest of the fish can do. That way there would be this decision tree

A ) Theron pins Angel so she can't get in range > Angel could pass to Greyscales or equivalent to score first turn instead

B ) Theron lets Angel take the goal in 5th activation, then beats on her

Either way is likely to give up the momentum race, and her life, but that would have been better than nothing. Playing Angel seems like it is going to require a completely different plan about defenses. 

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Hell, I don't even wait for the last activation goal when I'm not running Angel. I like trying for T1A1, spend the rest of the turn setting up a T2A1, and then gunning for another goal in T2 to close out the game. It's exceptionally high-risk, high-reward, and it doesn't always work, but if you can leverage that time pressure it can sure pay off. Heck, with some setup maybe even a two-goal turn one is possible with Angel; I'd have to do some threat-range fiddling to figure out if that's on the table though, and whether or not Formations is in use would probably affect how good of a plan that is.

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I love seeing the Angel discussion. I'm personally a fan because I always find value in players that can offer that risk-reward factor if I feel I need it. Angel can either use a lot of INF, or if you park her there, she affects the gamestate without you having to do anything or spend INF.

 

I understand when some people don't like a more passive approach, but I'm used to playing teams where I really just want to load up two people and every one else has to be versatile.

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On 28.9.2017 at 11:59 PM, Ascobol said:

And I lost the final against Martin Koch, by missing 2 Goalshots in a row. I went 4:0 against him and while he took out Siren I missed the snapshotgoal with Angel. (1,2,3,3; so even normal shot would have missed) After that I really tried hard to get in possesion of the Ball again and missed with Greyscales too. Martin Koch is a brilliant Fisherman and at that point it wasn't possible to win against him any more. But he said one thing: "I was short of peeing my pants as I realized what Angel was capable of doing at that point. Simply magnificent" (hopefully translated that correctly)

 

He. Thanks for your kinds words. All was Ascobol said is correct. Angel is fine whit the last update. Run her in a nice position, pop nimble and wait for her moment. Thats all Ascobol did and that was really well played in the WTC game against me.

 

Greetings Iceman

 

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Got a game with her against my brother running Bsmiths. She did better here but that's not a big skill check. Their lack of control let her play a real role though. 

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I would never say a model is mandatory in any list. Angel isn't the answer to everything. But Angel is balanced as she is. The Snapshotmechanic and passive threat of her can't be buffed.

One Example to bring her into position in Turn 1.

You can try to pass her the ball and let her dodge. Then activate her, pass the ball to someone else and dodge again. Then run, Nimble, Supershot. That's 16" movement and 10" Shotrange = 26". Which is goalthreat from almost everywhere of the Pitch. When you park her within 8"-10" of the opponent goalpost, your opponent has to immediately react. You still have the option to pass the ball to Shark later in the turn and score with him. Or you try the snapshot direct with the next activation.

@naiconn1981 I don't really play to her possible 5INF. Sometimes it can be usefull. When you're sure you will go first next round and you can park the Ball on her. To start with 5 INF Nimble, Supershot, Charge ( Something with Def 3/1 or 4/0) But that's allways a little risky. (Only 80% ;-P) Most times you can do soemthing better with the INF but  nice to have. Especially if Shark is positioned well that he can threat the ball anywhere.

I used it one time to beat 8hp out of Ratchet while he was engaged by Tentacles and Hag. Just for fun. (2DMG on 3 hit, with ganging up not unlikely to happen.) ;-P

I think Tactical Advice is more a "nice to have" trait than a "needs to be used for beeing effective" trait.

As always: Just my personal opinion.

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What about just adding shadowlike? Gives her some tech to disengage a 2" model with one attack, gets her to goal range turn 1 with dodges assuming you are willing to put 3 INF into her (4 if you want nimble,) and extends her threat range. I think if she had it I'd be more inclined to play her.

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Nice to an discussion about Angel! I think she’s an under-utilised player in our guild of ballers.
 
I like Angel overall. She’s a really sharp tool that usually lands me at least one goal in the games in which I use her. In my opinion, she’s good for a late T1 non-interactive goal and for moving the ball back upfield after the opposition has scored. Since she can reliably shoot/pass over enemy models that’s what I use her for. There’s something delightful about making a pass with a base dice pool of 7 when you have super shot, bonus time and composure. So landing that pass on Shark or Sakana for a Snap-back Snapshot is pretty easy, even without composure. 
 
She will eventually get bogged down and torn apart, but if she has delivered a goal by that point I don’t care. Pre-Corsair fish was all about the trading game, and for those of us who still mainline Shark, this has not changed. 
 
In my last two games she was really hit or miss. In the first game, against Hunters, I positioned her badly after a Sakana-kicked G1 and she didn’t do anything all game, but that was my mistake, really. In the second game, against Masons, she scored 2 goals. 
 
I think that Shadowlike or something similar would make her ridiculously overpowered.  If there were any changes to be made to Angel, I’d love to se her get a Mom < on 1 or even a non-mom < on 1, since this would allow her to reposition herself a bit better when she eventually gets tied down. I think this would make her a bit easier to play for beginner fish-players and a lot more comfortable for us old basses out there. 
 
 
But that being said, I think that she's fine the way she is. You've just got to plan your game a bit more carefully. 

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I've still to try using her like I use Friday. Kick-off with her, and them use her low momentous tackle to get/threaten the ball and go for an early T1 goal. The rest of the game she will hang around in my opponent's half of the pitch ready to collect the ball and score.

I like the idea of Shadow Like. It'll give her something to differentiate her from Greyscales and Sakana. She'd end up filling the role of the fast striker compared with Greyscales as the slippery fish and Sakana for dealing with armour.

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I love Angel, but I also find that she misses little thing to be something else than a competitor to Sakana, against the teams without ARM.

The speed is for siren, the assist to the fight is for Sakana, and the dodge is for greyscale.

 

my opinion is : she need otherthing, for the kick style, like close control (but corsair give her), Volley Threat, Showboating, Above and Beyond or Goal of the Month.

and a better background trait to Tactical Advice, like : can use come on mate on Shark for free, can use team work when she pass or receive a pass to Shark for free.

 

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Character Trait Ideas

Changing Tides
At the start of this model's activation, if this model's controlling player has fewer VPs than the opposing player, this model gains Rough Seas.

Constant Goal Threat
If this model is within 4" of an enemy goal marker, friendly shots gain [-1TN]

Predatory Striker [Shark]
At the start of this model's activation, if this model is within 4" of named friendly model, it may choose one of the following benefits. This mode gains the chose benefit for the remainder of the turn:
+0/+2 MOV when charging a model in possession of a ball marker
If this model is in possession of the ball marker it gains +2 TAC
This model Gains Volley Threat [This model may spend one less MP to use snapshot]

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9 hours ago, kaladorm said:

Constant goal threat is a cool concept as an 'opposite goalkeeper'. Seems very fish 

Yeah I think it is probably my favorite of the 3. I wonder where it sits in terms of power. I tried my darnedest not to make any of them too powerful. Constant Goal Threat would ask you to commit a fairly squishy model deep into enemy territory. It also telegraphs what you are going to do. TN3 goals with the guys you are going to shoot with makes a difference but it can't be too ridiculous if someone were to do the math, ideally it would be used for TN4 snapshots.

The more I thought about it though I realized I didn't  Tap Ins into account. It would be easily fixed by adding "This bonus does not stack with the Tap In rule." a la Rage's Bloody Coin rules. TN2 shots goes too far and TN 3 snapshots would certainly not be good for the game.

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