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Ik-tornado

How to buff Angel?

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Hey guys, I decided to start up a blog today as a convenient way to write long stuff and be able to include images since the limit on here is so low. I'm not super professional at all that website junk but this first entry is focused on making Angel an interesting choice in the roster through buffs, with a short paragraph included in the beginning for my own relief over her sculpt.

https://tornadogb.blogspot.com/2017/09/angels-in-goalie-box.html

Also suggest more Angel fixes in this thread! I want her to be fun and effective to use within the next few errata passes. 

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I think any fix to Angel can only really come from giving the whole of the season 1 team a proper look over.

The Fish are a strong guild game wise, they are certainly placing quite high in tournaments and most people on the forum generally cite games against Fish teams as some of their toughest. The issue here is though that the team that is generally doing all that is a variation on the odd Corsair attrition list that rose up in season 2.

Post errata most of the season 1 team feel off the mark somehow and only Greyscales and Salt really remain notably strong picks.

Shark no longer destroys fun (thank goodness) but took a massive blow to his power to get there and so is dirt easy to look over in favour of the peg-legged god that is Corsair. Angel although she can have the best kick in the game cant stand out because her only good points (her kicking stats) are only marginally better in practice than the rest of her team and every time you look for a striker both Sakana and post errata Shark just have more things they can bring to the team and better speed to score with. Jac is just a heroic play that struggles to do work the rest of the time. Siren has strong plays but can really struggle to bring them to bear since dropping to 2/3. Kraken is just not an attractive pick for Corsair (because A&G are better) or Shark (because he does nothing of worth for the playstyle).

For Angel specifically I think she needs a few things.  First an easier to achieve dodge as a result of an attack (preferably with a boost up to a 2" melee zone) and second, a trait that lets her act out of turn to support her team. It could even be directly linked to Shark and replace the largely useless tactical advice (ie something along the lines of Hey! I'm Open [Shark] This model may make a 4" dodge when friendly [Shark] model activates within 6" of it).

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I did. I chose to re-iterate the bits that I felt were the most important failings (namely the deminishing returns Angel provides) but also highlighted my own issue with S1 Fish as a whole in the face of the current meta for want of a better word and finished by providing my own take on how she could be fixed (as that was the request in the opening post).

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To me the problem with going for the easy fix of 2" and an easy dodge is that it increases competition for the Sakana/Greyscales slot without making it meaningfully different. When several characters have the same role there will always be one that's worse and needs a buff. Right now the Sakana vs Greyscales debate is fairly even and they bring their own niche, if there was a third 12ish threat dodgy striker I don't personally think the guild would be more interesting for it. 

Originally my post was all about the underused fish but the Angel rant took over haha. For the other fish though I think if Shark was as viable over Corsair as he use to be the other fish would be fine. I auto include Kraken in almost all my Corsair teams, and while Jac is a walking heroic he's exactly the walking heroic I want when playing Shark. I actually built my changes with the Shark Siren and Jac build in mind :P I'd fix Jac by moving a lot of his late playbook down. I already got a bunch of complaints at tournaments when I played Shark and chucked a guy off the board to start every turn so I'd be nervous to hear them complain if I had to roll even less dice.

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1 hour ago, Ik-tornado said:

To me the problem with going for the easy fix of 2" and an easy dodge is that it increases competition for the Sakana/Greyscales slot without making it meaningfully different. When several characters have the same role there will always be one that's worse and needs a buff. Right now the Sakana vs Greyscales debate is fairly even and they bring their own niche, if there was a third 12ish threat dodgy striker I don't personally think the guild would be more interesting for it.

But right now as is without any range boost or an escape mechanisms Angel is a 9" threat striker and nothing else who has to compete with Sakana and Greysclaes for a place on the team and always will be because Footballing teams are generally built around speed and capacity to threaten areas and Angel will always fall short unless she can do that.

To my mind all our capable non-Captain goal scoring-attacking footballer types (Angel, Greyscales, Sakana and Siren1) should all be able to threaten ball recovery over 10" by themselves and have an escape mechanism from combat because they lean towards very squishy once caught in a fight, where they should then seperate is in what they bring on top of that.

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That's fair and I wouldn't mind an extension, I just would rather each one have a slightly different application and I want Angel to be similar to present but fix the fact that passes are pointless. Like Greyscales is good in general with strong defensive tech, Sakana is better vs high armor and can play a damage support role but has pretty poor defensive tech compared to most of our options, Siren has indirect recovery that bypasses high defenses by charging a nearby enemy to get seduced. If Angel was the 4th non captain ball retrieval model she would need a complete rework because she would fill the same general with strong defense as Greyscales.

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A complete rework is probably what she needs given her whole kit is largely redundant to the fish.

She really feels set up for a game that never emerged at the moment. A one where enemies crowd the goal and drop modifiers all over the shots.

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At the WTC, the Fish player from Germany2 (the team lost only to Germany1 in the final) played her every Game except the last one (and Shark in every Game except the last one as well), so she can't be all bad.

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40 minutes ago, Mootaz said:

At the WTC, the Fish player from Germany2 (the team lost only to Germany1 in the final) played her every Game except the last one (and Shark in every Game except the last one as well), so she can't be all bad.

I'd be interested in hearing and seeing what he does with her if he was to post here or if you have a link to something he has said about her. And I don't know his opponents, as I'm a bleak United States player, but 2 of the 4 he used her against had a lower win than loss at WTC so potentially just plain skill gap. (not intending this as taking away from their achievements, it's just the only data I have to go on, I really wanted to get stomped at the WTC but was laid off this year.) 1 of the four he lost. But he used her against JJ Layfield in round 4 in that case and I'm definitely curious, so please hit me up with that sweet German meta knowledge!

Always willing to give a player a second (or third or fourth) chance. Despite my craving for a more dynamic and interesting (imo) Angel.

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38 minutes ago, Mootaz said:

At the WTC, the Fish player from Germany2 (the team lost only to Germany1 in the final) played her every Game except the last one (and Shark in every Game except the last one as well), so she can't be all bad.

I have no idea what goes on in Germany, but just because a very skilled player can get good results with a model does not make that model good.  I'd be very interested to hear that player explain his list choices.

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48 minutes ago, Mootaz said:

At the WTC, the Fish player from Germany2 (the team lost only to Germany1 in the final) played her every Game except the last one (and Shark in every Game except the last one as well), so she can't be all bad.

"Not that bad" is far away from optimal or effective. The issue with Angel is that Sakana and Greyscales do her job better. Its not that Angel is bad or that she can't function as a decent snapshot turret. She is definitely under-powered in Fish, but she would probably see play in other guilds. I've been using her a bit lately and she's been oddly fun, but she definitely needs either 2" or volley threat to compete for a slot.

I also agree that giving her small buffs mostly just adds redundancy to our team, but I also think that some people would opt for her over Sakana and Greyscales, and that would certainly be an improvement over what she is now.  Adding a competitive choice to that Sakana/Greyscales slot doesn't automatically mean shes trash and needs a full rework. I would welcome her adding some variety to our lineups. 

I would like to see her replace tactical advice with a useful synergy from Shark. Maybe she borrows Tac 6 from him, like honour/harmony. That would be cool. 

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38 minutes ago, MechMage said:

I have no idea what goes on in Germany, but just because a very skilled player can get good results with a model does not make that model good.  I'd be very interested to hear that player explain his list choices.

If I had to make a guess, it's the Mom tackle on 1. Doesn't get much done turn one, but give her 4 on turn 2 and the ball is effectively denied in her 9 inch bubble.

There is something to say about just getting all the strikers. I do something similar with engineers in a few matchups. Mom tackle on 1 is just super helpful in such a strategy.

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I'm more of a mind for a full rework because I would like to see Angel pick up some of the footballing tech that came about in season 3 similar to sBrisket's.

I'm Open on Angel for example could lead to some wonderful options especially as it would give her access via a roundabout route to a decent dodge and sudden.

One thing that would be nice in the Fish for Shark teams is a way to better conserve MP given how starved they often are. Possibly a trait that reduces the cost of Angel making shots by 1MP could help her stand out.

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I'll add my thoughts, not entirely connected to the OP (sorry :) )

My experience - the main thing is Angel is not that she is ineffective, it's that she is incredibly undynamic. She's a stat stick - high DEF and high KICK stats, with the potential to make them even higher. She relies on these to basically dodge parting blows and run at the goal, or just shoot while engaged by 3 people and put the ball on the post anyway.

Her ideal play is to get get ball early with 2-3 INF, put up Nimble and/or Super Shot, and then spend the whole game standing within Snap Shot range. The diciest part is getting the ball to her, so the -1 TN idea is nice.

Her weakness is that she basically does nothing outside having these 2 super high stats. She technically does nothing without the ball, but then you could argue that she feeds you 2 INF in that case and gives you the chance at a snapshot from basically anywhere.

She feels like a season 1 design - blunt force kicking power, high DEF, not much else. Tactical Advice Shark especially seems like a relic of a bygone age, since I can't think of a scenario where you want to give her 5 INF over someone else.

 

TL;DR - not terrible, just boring. Still more valuable than Shark in your 10 in the current environment IMO :P

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1 hour ago, Frankanelli said:

"Not that bad" is far away from optimal or effective.

There's got to be something to be said for the fact this individual fields her at all. I think it is worth paying attention to when a high level player does something unusual. It's not like the same models aren't available to everyone.

46 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

I'm more of a mind for a full rework because I would like to see Angel pick up some of the footballing tech that came about in season 3 similar to sBrisket's.

I'm Open on Angel for example could lead to some wonderful options especially as it would give her access via a roundabout route to a decent dodge and sudden.

One thing that would be nice in the Fish for Shark teams is a way to better conserve MP given how starved they often are. Possibly a trait that reduces the cost of Angel making shots by 1MP could help her stand out.

Was just joshing you earlier :)

I actually helped OP with this design and the things you point out are options we certainly discussed. Route One was an idea we threw around more than once, as well as the combined :T::<: he writes about in the article. We also brought up Showboating once or twice. Great minds think alike. I believe @Ik-tornado ultimately went with this version purely because, for better for worse, embodies the spirit of Angel without treading too far into another model's territory while still being an interesting upgrade.

FWIW I am actually considering slotting Angel back into my Corsair roster in the Siren slot. I just haven't found either Siren to be particularly effective post-errata. I still run Sakana, but find he more often than not wants to fight with Corsair during the initial stages of the game. Late stage he has trouble pivoting to striker. Angel feels like a nice way to seal games once the take outs are achieved.

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Please forgive me if my english is not that good or my written is a little muddled.

I will try to put down my thoughts on Angel and why I think she doesn't need a buff. Or why she is good as she is.

Where to start? Maybe in correcting Mootaz (missunderstanding in a german forum where i wrote something about WTC): I played Angel in all 5 matches at WTC. Shark I played in every Game except the Final against Martin Koch of Team Germany 1. That was due to Gentleman's Agreement that we both play Corsair. And I'm totally satisfied of the performance of Angel. BTW my Roster for WTC was:

Shark; Corsair; Tentacles; Greayscales; Sakana; Hag; Siren; vSiren; Angel; Jac

I lost the first match against Ignacio Lozano Ramirez of Spain 1, a real nice guy. I missed a few dice rolls and his dice worked. At a certain point I was that far behind that I couldn't manage to stablize against Hunters. 

And I lost the final against Martin Koch, by missing 2 Goalshots in a row. I went 4:0 against him and while he took out Siren I missed the snapshotgoal with Angel. (1,2,3,3; so even normal shot would have missed) After that I really tried hard to get in possesion of the Ball again and missed with Greyscales too. Martin Koch is a brilliant Fisherman and at that point it wasn't possible to win against him any more. But he said one thing: "I was short of peeing my pants as I realized what Angel was capable of doing at that point. Simply magnificent" (hopefully translated that correctly) But enough from WTC atm.

Angel seems like she isn't doing much on the field. And I sign that to a certain amount. Her Playbook seems difficult to get to second column, 3rd or 4th not to mention. She got no 2" melee zone like 99% of the Fish do have and when you take a look at her card, she seems to have the same role as Greyscales or Sakana. Maybe fighting with Sakana the most for a place in the roster. I don't see her in the same role as anyone else of the fish. All are capable to score goals. All are fast. All can exert pressure on the Ball. Where I see the difference in role comes from, is in her high DEF, the ability to push it and her superb Kickstats.

If you want a Model charging into someone, tackling the ball, where'd they go somewhere else and score a Goal she definately is not the model you're looking for. If you want a model "seducing" the oponnent or "lure" it anywhere else, Angel again is not the model you're looking for.

If you look for a model you can place in "snapshotrange", after scoring a first turn goal, which just says: Hi, I'm here. I'm DEF 6 and a real "snapshotthread" better do soething. Angel is definately the model you're looking for.

 

At this point I wan't to make sure: I'm not trying to convince you all, that you have to play her. Nothing I write is ment irrefutable or absolut. I just want to let you know why I like her and why I think she is good as she is.

 

Angel has momT on 1 hit which will deny placing a model in possession of the ball in 9" (or 11" with Quickfoot/Fisher's Reel or 13" when both or 15" when both+Call of the Sea) But this is theory, not a gameplan. You just can use it, if it occurs. (Passive 9" Aura of NOT STAY IN HERE WITH THE BALL)

Place her in shot range to the enemy Goalpost and she is a "snapshot threat" while threatening the Ball in a certain area around her. This is a gameplan. DEF 5 or even 6 makes her really hard to get rid off. Important Result (KD, >>,...)on 3 hits with TAC 6 against DEF 6 is 6,228% chance. And even on 2 hits just gets to 26,32% with TAC6. While passing her the Ball, when she is engaged by one Model, still has a 80,24% to succeed. Although beeing engaged, by one model, a snapshot with bonustime still has 68,75%. Add "Supershot" and it goes up to 81,25%. (Passive GOAL THREAD)

Sakana only gets to 25% or 50% with bonustime, when engaged.

She is a "Snapshotmachine" who is very furious shooting goals. Due to beeing such a thread, the opponent has to do something against her. If he engages with only one model, she can still be a serious thread. If he engages with 2 models, the rest of the Pitch is empty for the rest of the fisherteam. (Passive CONTROL/DENIAL)

Next Point DEF 5 or even 6: Pushing her out of goalrange isn't very effective or easy, see example above. Yes there are models able to KD,>>,.. on 1 hit, but then you  can't just place her in Goalrange, you have to think a little about placing. Or maybe you pick someone else. And even if the oponnent manages to get rid of Angel (TO or push out of "Snapshotrange") it probably was very INF inefficent. Spending 4 INF to nonmom> Angel out of "Snapshotrange" but has to be done. That's another point of Angel bringing to the Pitch. Letting the opponent spend INF in an inefficent way. (Passive HARD TO GET RID OFF)

All I have written above, seems more like "passives" than an active plan you follow. For me it's her "passives" what makes her shine.

On top "light footed" so she ignores "Blasted Earth"

She either is a hard thread on the enemy goal or "controlls/denies" the enemy by forcing the opponent to handle her somehow due to beeing such a thread. (see example above of engaging her but openning the Pitch) And all of that by just placing her in "snapshotrange" with Nimble and Supershot.That's why I love playing her.

Her >< is not very likely to hapen but with a little help ( ganging up, KD, Singled Out, or combination of it) it happens more often than you would imagine.

The possibility to give her 5 INF when starting next to Shark will allow you to activate her first (if you can move up tackle the ball and score a goal. Jog to engage, 1Nimble, 1Attack for momT, 1 Supershot, 1Goal, 1 reserve if need to sprint/charge or 2nd Attack if Counterattack...) So while borderline case, not useless. So no point for me that "needs" to be changed.

All of this in mind I'd like to say asking for a change, only looking at the cards of the models is the wrong way. (No Offense here, just the impression i have) It is always how the model affect the match and Angel does this completely different to all other models of the Fish. But this always depends on your own playstyle and the opponent setup.

Short to the match against JJ Layfield. I knew how good he is. And I knew Engis have the better odds to win. (personal opinion) That's why I decided not to go Corsair, what would have been "the standard choice". I thought I have to go full risk/reward and it payed off. I played Shark Tentacles Greyscales Sakana Siren and Angel. He played Ballista Mother Compound Hoist Ratchet and vVelocity (picked her last pick after i called Angel) He was suprised by my model choices and I think he really didn't expect my list. I did a snapshot goal with Angel in Turn 1 which had only 40,xx% chance to succeed. I did it because I knew I have to put up very high pressure or I will loose. Could have waited and just score next turn, but this is a lot if and when. I then started next turn and scored again with Shark and Legendary with 80% chance. 8-0 what allowed me to go full pressure on the ball. Then I missed a goal with similar odds, think this makes up for the snapshot turn 1 (again If and when) The next shot was a success 12-2. He was a little suprised and told me he hasn't seen something like this before. AND YES I KNOW I WAS LUCKY. Maybe @JJLayfield himself can write a little to the match. Don't want to embezzle something by not remember correctly.

 

So that 's a lot of text and I hope I missed nothing. Sorry if it is a little muddled. Hope you can see what is my point (way of how to play a model). I'm interressted what you all think. Something you agree/disagree. Can't consider everything, so if I missed something specific you want to know my thoughts about let me know.

With this I wish you all a good night.

Greetings from Germany

Ascobol

 

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Hey! First off, thank you for posting such a long detailed post. I largely agree with you actually, I like the role that she plays as a passive threat and wouldn't want to see her buffed in a way that changes that identity or playstyle. I think our disagreement about "buffing" versus "leaving her as is" is subject to our playstyle difference. You seem much more willing to take the risk of a snapshot than me. The buffs I would like for her are pretty much just to make that passive threat a bit better so I'm comfortable with the risk.

One question though, what distance from the goal are you attempting to "park" her at for the snapshot threat? Tap in range?

I may give her another shot at a tournament this weekend, still deciding between fish and Grange farmers

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@Ik-tornado depends on the boardstate. Enough models with pushes on 1 hit I put her a little nearer to the goal. If not, a little more to the edge of her kickrange. Within 8" is allways good so she can go snapshotting withoit having to activate first and put on Supershot. 

Snapshot are very dangerous and high rewarding, that's why I think you can't make it more secure. That's where the balancing lies. When she is in snapshotrange the ball is not safe on the opponent half of the pitch. If opponent places the ball that shark can't move up, take the ball and got to goalrange himself, he probably get the ball to Angel and she just scores a snapshot. So shark just can get a charge to the model holding the ball at the edge of pitch. Tackle, dodge/tidal surge in direction of Angel and let her take a snapshot. Even without having to activate her.That's what I try to do. Normaly you pass the ball and try to safe it from the opponent. Often resulting in 2 -3 activations passing and moving the ball around. With each pass a chance to miss or activations of the opponent destroying your plan.

What I forgot to mention. Winning the game by doing 2-3 Snapshotgoals is not the gameplan. Just the option on it is what makes me field her. She allows me to go more aggressive on the ball. And makes it way more difficult for the opponent to deny the ball. Gameplan is to win with 3 Goals. Even with Corsair. He does that a little less than Shark but has the option for TO.

Sorry can't explain that more atm. I'm at work right now.

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I completely agree with Ascobol. I love running her with Corsair because he can give her Sturdy and One Legged Stance. Effectively making her a 6/12" Snapshot monster on 6 DEF with Sturdy and Close Control.  

I know Ascobol said his plan isn't to win by ~2 Angel Snapshots a game, but the threat is real and it's there. I don't think it's inconceivable to snapshot her with an activation, the ball is kicked out, another activation steals it back and passes it to Angel again for another snapshot.

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