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AaronWilson.

Peoples perceptions on the guilds right now.

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So I don't like "Power rankings" or "strict tiers" of guilds and I find it a pointless title. I do LOVE however hearing peoples current perception of the guilds and their current state. I find it offers differs from meta to meta, country to country etc. Since we've recently had a shake up with the errata and we've had a healthy amount of time to digest it I'd love to hear people's perceptions of the state of all the guilds right now. 

Currently for me, the current balance of the guilds is in a pretty sweet spot. Above the curve there may only be 3 models that come to mind (oKat, Thresher and Corsair) that could do with a look at to bring them down from there peak of the curve. There is a few more on the list that I think need love (Vileswarm, Kraken, Fangtooth, Zarola playbook, Ulfr) but as a general feeling I'd say balance is the best it's been for a long while. 

I honestly think any guild could win any event right now in the hands of a practiced, experienced player. 

What are your guys current thoughts on the state of the guilds/overall balance? 

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For a long time the brewers were 'bottom tier' for many people and when at the WTC I told i did 12-0 against vetRage with my brewers people were shocked. In our local meta we play all the guilds all the time and even though some MU are easier and some are more demanding I strongly believe you win with any guild against any guild. The players who IMO need a look at are Vileswarm, Kraken and Corsair. oKat isn't too god, 1" melee range and KD keep him in check.

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I think the Masons, played well, are bar none the most powerful guild.

This isn't to the exclusion of the other power players, but I can't see how there's any dispute.

They excel in combat, through an excess of defensive tech and Combat modifiers, and excel in Football through the excess of dodges and Low Tackles/Accurate Kicks.

I feel that "Jack of All Trades Master of None" isn't remotely accurate to the power of the Masons, they can express total dominance over whatever portion of the game they decide on playing.

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My feeling is that Engineers are top dog. So much defence tech, some insane legendaries which are pretty much auto-goals, every player is above the curve (even their Mascots are insane - Mother particularly) most have a 2" reposition on column 2 and the grenade bombardment tech is just annoying. I don't think they are broken. Just very powerful and with good players exceptional (their counters might be a little strong - all that 2" reposition is tough for 1" models). I would like to see Blasted earth be OPT though - the gunline thing is just dull and anti-GB imo.

Worst Guild? Well ignoring Farmers and Blacksmiths because they're missing their 6, is now much in contention that Hunters got patched. I mean Hunters need more love but they can definitely win now so I'm not sure there is a worst Guild. But Brewers are probably in this spot just because they seem slower to reach victory conditions.

Top Players: oKat without doubt - the TAC 8 on 6 columns is very odd design (since elsewhere it's usually columns +1), Corsair maybe (he can be annoying to play into), Hoist (always annoying to play into :) )

Bottom Players: Fangtooth (the Heroic is awful - reward vs cost is hilarious), vHarmony (I just rarely seem to see her), Chisel (should have standard Crazy make over, Painful Rage is a rarity and harder to trigger now so not an issue), Granite (I love her but boy is she annoyingly vulnerable to slow effects), Zarola (discussed to death), Ulfr (too much contradiction in design), Hearne2 (changes to Hearne1 make Hearne2 now seem a bit pointless other than KD bot - jump tech is too situational), Tenderiser (feels like his KD is too high), Vileswarm and vGraves (something isn't clicking here).

All my opinion of course.

 

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Balance seems ok overall early in the post errata season, but there's always room for improvement for specific models. Most of my negative perception of guilds overall is the feel due to an imbalance in captains. Fish don't feel like what they were supposed to at all (remember when attrishermen was a jank build instead of the standard?) I think butchers and Morticians are still suffering from getting hit with the nerf bat for season 3.

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4 hours ago, AaronWilsonCB said:

I honestly think any guild could win any event right now in the hands of a practiced, experienced player. 

While I have only gamed with, and against, a few of the guilds at this point... I agree. Perhaps more than in any game I've played...player skill is at the forefront of success and not a specific team, with a specific make up, or a specific deck of cards. Now if I could just obtain Skill Level: Mediocre :P 

My perception of strongest guild would probably lean toward Fishermen... but again, the fellow that coaches Fishermen where I play is a far more skilled/experience player. Bottom of the barrel would probably be me trying to play Brewers...or any guild actually :) . Having said that...I have been filling in spots by playing whatever guild brings a bit more variety to the events... so I haven't really just nailed one guild down yet...and playing with less than full access to all the players at this point as well.

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4 hours ago, EpicChris said:

Worst Guild? Well ignoring Farmers and Blacksmiths because they're missing their 6, is now much in contention that Hunters got patched. I mean Hunters need more love but they can definitely win now so I'm not sure there is a worst Guild. But Brewers are probably in this spot just because they seem slower to reach victory conditions.

 

 

Can you expand on your thoughts about Brewers? Several of the guys I play against hate playing brewers because of the "snowball effect." One several players are knocked down and in threat area of either Hooper or Spigot it can be a downward spiral. I normally just hold the ball until 8 points and score or look for easy takeouts. 

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Oh it's just my perception. Brewers seem to take longer to get to 12 VP than other teams because it feels like their goal threat is Friday (Spigot2 and Mash don't see a lot of play near me). Their KD punch face game is great but you can avoid it, and they are often low DEF/ARM so vulnerable to CPs and attacks. Again I don't think they are bad - I think the balance difference between most guilds is now much, MUCH closer than before. But if I had to pick a guild, Brewers would be my choice. And it could well be a 'meta' thing. I am pretty confident in Engineers though - they seem to be a stealth team. Few play them but my goodness do they have options to be all over you.

This is as the OP suggested my view of the world - I'm not saying Brewers are bad and Engineers are best. Just I perceive it that way.

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Haha no love for Brewers!

I'm bringing a newbie perspective so that might not fit quite as well, but our local scene has seen an influx of new players (like myself) and the current powerhouses appear to be Union and Brewers, with Hunters seen as lower tier (or at least harder to make work). 

I know I've been doing fairly well in new games with Brewers so I'd be hesitant to put them at the bottom, at least locally. However, I can see some of the more complicated guilds doing better as our players figure out how to run them effectively. Honestly, the influence efficiency has been the biggest boon for my beer loving brothers and sisters - between Tapper, Pintpot, and the abundance of 2/3, they rarely are stuck with nothing to do. Combine that with easy KDs and their overall tankiness and it seems that locally, Brewers are doing quite well. 

Then again, we have a pretty limited footballing meta. Lot more 4-1s than anything else. Probably a factor :)

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Some guilds are also better or worse depending on the level of play. Butcher's seem to dominate lower end tournys because they are very easy and straight forward to make them work. Wile a team like the Hunters or Masons have a very high ceiling but their tech is less straight forward so a newer player may have a much harder time playing them. 

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In regards to our local meta.

Strongest atm are: Butchers, Union and Morts.

Butcher's won our local league, played 8 games, 8 wins, 5 games were 12-0. Second were Union, and third and forth were bot Morts.

Bottom were Masons where both teams ran by the players played for the wooden spoon.

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Local Meta popular/strong guilds: Butchers, Union

Personal feeling (again, I agree with many that the balance is as good as it has been since I've started in S2, so this is just a "slightly above/below average" vote):

Strongest: Union, Engineers, Fish

Weakest: Hunters Brewers

Models that need nerfing: oKat (he should have been nerfed, but with Midas/Vitriol a little over-nerfed, I guess it's ok), Thresher, Mother.

Models that need lots of help: vGraves, Vileswarm, Fangtooth, vHarmony, Bonesaw, Venin, Tenderizer, vVelocity, Zarola

Models that need some help: Angel, Chisel, Granite, vSpigot, Egret, Seenah, Hemlocke, Rage

Just my 2 cents.

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Surprised no one's mentioned Shank on the low power list. I'd much rather include 're derided than shank. I also think vOx is a little under powered - I suspect if you fix Shank and Tenderiser you'd never see him. He only makes the team due to lack of anything better, especially now that his best bud Harry doesn't do what the butchers want from him and you can't get that double team working in quite the same way. I might argue a point about og Brisket butvi think it's largely just that vet Brisket is just that little bit better...

I offer opinions only on butchers models as that's all I really play. I suppose I could make a list of weaker models from other teams, but it would just be based on who I never see, so it doesn't really help.

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1 hour ago, malladin.ben said:

Surprised no one's mentioned Shank on the low power list. I'd much rather include 're derided than shank. I also think vOx is a little under powered - I suspect if you fix Shank and Tenderiser you'd never see him. He only makes the team due to lack of anything better, especially now that his best bud Harry doesn't do what the butchers want from him and you can't get that double team working in quite the same way. I might argue a point about og Brisket butvi think it's largely just that vet Brisket is just that little bit better...

Shank might be better with the new GIC that lets a model charge for 1 less.  Effectively making him a 4inf cap again....

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Also, Shank on an Ox team is pretty effective with his 2", all the dodges, and a pretty good damage track (with all those +1 DAM, ouch).  Under Fillet, CodFather is right with that new GIC.

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I've tried Shank in an Ox team and tend to find I get more out of tenderiser. I am aware that some people can make him work, but they are in the minority, similar to the people who made meathook work in S1/2. A GIC making him as good as other models isn't a fix as I can just use the GIC on a different model and get more benefit from it. Plus we dont know how standard GICs are likely to become, so again, this doesn't mean shank is not below power and in need of a fix. My meta survey has him as the least used butchers model.

Shank was OP in S1/2 because hunting mascots and players returning on 4-6 go was a thing. These problems have been sorted with S3 core rules. At 3 INF and needing to spend 2 to get anywhere he does very little. He does need a fix.

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Hmmm. Shank is an odd one. The problem in S1/2 wasn't just the hunting problem it was he was one of the best killers in the game - 2", dodges, Thousand Cuts, Where'd they go etc combined with an excellent striker (MOM T on 2, dodges and 2" allowing him to strike on goal pretty easily).

4 INF on him makes him a master of all trades really - he is too good at stealing the ball and scoring or beating you up - which would make him basically an auto-include. I agree something might need to be done on him, but he's going to need his abilities clipped back if that's the case. 

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I think Shank is good as he is on 3 influence, he is fast, has a good playbook, generates momentum and is fairly survivable for a butcher. I don't understand why more people don't use him he is a master of all trades now and an auto include for me. He tends to get me 4-6 points in every match I play him in and synergies very well with Ox as a finisher and for crowdouts. With thanks Greg

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I feel like he would be ok if his kick was a 2/8 or he was a 1/4 inf. Though i think we might see more of him in this new meta (harry nerfs) as i really dont think the remaining union players are good enough to take and tye fact that i believe captain ox is sort of becoming relevant again because he plays well into farmers and blacksmiths.

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4 hours ago, kestershero said:

I think Shank is good as he is on 3 influence, he is fast, has a good playbook, generates momentum and is fairly survivable for a butcher. I don't understand why more people don't use him he is a master of all trades now and an auto include for me. He tends to get me 4-6 points in every match I play him in and synergies very well with Ox as a finisher and for crowdouts. With thanks Greg

Pretty much this.  I disagree with people who say Shank needs fixing.  I think he's in a good spot right now and can still do a lot if you're not asking him to do *everything* that he used to do.

5 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

I've tried Shank in an Ox team and tend to find I get more out of tenderiser. I am aware that some people can make him work, but they are in the minority, similar to the people who made meathook work in S1/2. A GIC making him as good as other models isn't a fix as I can just use the GIC on a different model and get more benefit from it. Plus we dont know how standard GICs are likely to become, so again, this doesn't mean shank is not below power and in need of a fix. My meta survey has him as the least used butchers model.

Shank was OP in S1/2 because hunting mascots and players returning on 4-6 go was a thing. These problems have been sorted with S3 core rules. At 3 INF and needing to spend 2 to get anywhere he does very little. He does need a fix.

I respectfully disagree malladin.ben.  Your assumption that he "needs to spend 2 to get anywhere" means that you always expect him to go 12" with his 2" reach, when pretty much everyone on the team can only go 8" (except Fillet, who is a captain and shouldn't be compared with Shank) with 1 INF when Shank can go 9" (and still has a 2" reach).   

If they change Shank's 3 INF thing, then quite a few other things on his card must go, like all the dodges or damages, the Thousand cuts, or even the low tackle.  

 

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I could accept a host of alternative nerfs to shank in place of the 3 INF cap. 1/4 INF, reduce his kick, move his tackle up his playbook are all fine fixes and suitable to make him function as a mobile killer. At the moment his mobility functions at the expence of his ability to kill things or do things with the ball. I'd be happy for him not to do stuff with the ball quite so well (I suppose that's the same but opposite fix to the one Vitriol got).

If you'd any get behind that, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, which is all well and good. Although the only data I am currently aware of that measures how often individual models are picked, however shows that Shank is the least frequently picked butchers model, and I would offer that as my argument that something is wrong.

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19 minutes ago, kryzak said:

Pretty much this.  I disagree with people who say Shank needs fixing.  I think he's in a good spot right now and can still do a lot if you're not asking him to do *everything* that he used to do.

I respectfully disagree malladin.ben.  Your assumption that he "needs to spend 2 to get anywhere" means that you always expect him to go 12" with his 2" reach, when pretty much everyone on the team can only go 8" (except Fillet, who is a captain and shouldn't be compared with Shank) with 1 INF when Shank can go 9" (and still has a 2" reach).   

If they change Shank's 3 INF thing, then quite a few other things on his card must go, like all the dodges or damages, the Thousand cuts, or even the low tackle.  

 

I think the main problem with Shank is that they only changed his max cap down to 3. At the same time, they changed the Icy sponge rule and added Home crowd rule.
If they also would have changed Shank in some ways to compensate, or switched things around to balance the lowered Inf cap, I think he would have been in a better place.

Personally I think that the memory of what Shank could do in s01-02 is what's holding him back. Some basic game rules changed, other models changed and the meta changed again.  But unless the GIC cards becomes a main thing and Shank can use the ability of Take it to 'em, I do agree he needs a small fix.


But, this is not a Butchers/Shank discussion,  so maybe move this to the Butchers forum.

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Ah well, as this thread has shown perception is a strong thing. Butcher players think Shank is bad. So group think comes into play. And Shank is taken less. Models taken/not taken isn't really a good measure of the model because we are sheep and follow each other. Shank is still very good at what he does - just not so great at one-rounding people. But the WTG combo on him makes a /4 Cap very very good. I mean Meathook is an auto include and she's /3 Cap...

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