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Pin Vice vs Ballista (again) the 6 player box question

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Ok, so I have a friend who is thinking of expanding into Engineers.  We don't have any local Engineer players (the one guild we're completely missing) and the 6 player boxes seem like a good starting place, so I was wondering what your comments are on the two boxes.

Ballista, Mainspring, Salvo, Velocity, Ratchet, Colossus

Pin Vice, Mother (and three nest markers), Veteran Velocity, Hoist, Compound, Locus.

 

Does either box struggle into any specific match ups?  Does either box do really well into any specific match ups?

Strengths?  Deficiencies?

Any specific union models that are good to add to either box (we have a good selection of union models locally and are fairly happy loaning them out to others in our small group), especially if they cover a massive weakness?

 

Is there a blog or forum post that discusses all this (and maybe the other guild 6player boxes)?  I've been a bit busy this year and somewhat out of the loop...

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The Ballista team will be playable and decent out of the box.  The Pin Vice one will struggle because a large portion of Hoist's power is his synergy with Ratchet and the vVelocity Compound pair will be overkill in most match ups.  A&G is decent in Engineers although I'm not a fan personally.  I think Gutter pairs very well with Colossus but she's match up dependent in any team.  oRage is great at what he does and goes a long way to supplement the Engineer's limited damage output.  Decimate is always great since she brings Second Wind to a Pin Vice team and generates momentum more reliably than anyone in faction.

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As an Engineer main player, I agree with everything Mechmage said. The only thing missing from an all comers 6 man group from the ballista box is hoist mother. That being said Union is not required, but not a bad option later on either. Overall the only bad eggs in their lineup is locus and V-velocity (mainly cause regular velocity is so good.) so for, like mechmage said, Ballista box is a much better starting point.

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I'd concur that the Ballista box is probably the strongest, but only cos Vet. Velocity isn't as good as the original version and Locus isn't quite the player you'd want him to be.

However, my current preferred 6 (Pin Vice, Mother, Salvo, Velocity, Hoist and Compound) is largely comprised of Box 2.

  • Pin Vice is the must have captain if you're going to focus on goal scoring
  • Mother is basically a 6th player and can get goals from a stupid distance (there is also a new dirty Mother trick* which is sickeningly good)
  • Salvo doesn't get a lot of love, but there are times when his CPs are gold dust and he has good board coverage for threatening the ball
  • Velocity is an effective goal scorer and with acrobatic is more flexible than the Veteran version
  • Hoist, basically undroppable
  • Compound is a surprisingly good outfield player especially with PV buffs

*Mother drops a nest marker near its own goal and then disappears up the pitch to the opposing goal. If your opponent scores, scatter the ball near the nest marker. Mother can then retrieve it from the other end of the pitch with webbing (only the nest marker needs to be near the ball, Mother doesn't!) 

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1 hour ago, Wynter said:
  • Pin Vice is the must have captain if you're going to focus on goal scoring

I agree with everything you said except for this.  Balista is a 4/10" kick who can generate momentum at range and ignores intervening models.  His also a much stronger captain if the ball is elsewhere on the pitch since he isn't as crippled by counter attacks and with only 2 influence Dead Bolt is an amazing character play.

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7 hours ago, MechMage said:

I agree with everything you said except for this.  Balista is a 4/10" kick who can generate momentum at range and ignores intervening models.  His also a much stronger captain if the ball is elsewhere on the pitch since he isn't as crippled by counter attacks and with only 2 influence Dead Bolt is an amazing character play.

Lol, I respectfully disagree. Ballista's Legendary gets you a singular goal, but Pin Vice can dodge her way through the opposing team, snatch the ball away and slot home a shot.

Did this twice against Vet. Rage Union at a tournament yesterday, the second time for the winning goal.

I often compare Pin Vice to Shark... their playbooks are practically identical. Both have a low :<<: and a reachable :><:. You can get a lot of (non parting blow triggering) movement off PV's playbook if their team is packed together around the ball.

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10 hours ago, Wynter said:

I often compare Pin Vice to Shark... their playbooks are practically identical. Both have a low :<<: and a reachable :><:. You can get a lot of (non parting blow triggering) movement off PV's playbook if their team is packed together around the ball.

I think this comparison highlights Pin Vice's shortcomings very well.  Shark has a 2" reach and a buyable dodge, two of the most important features for a striker.  The only compensation PV has is Close Control.  An Engineers player, oVelocity, outperforms Pin Vice by any striker metric.  Of course attacks weren't such a big part of Guildball I'd agree with you, but since they are I often find reason not to take her.

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1 minute ago, MechMage said:

I think this comparison highlights Pin Vice's shortcomings very well.  Shark has a 2" reach and a buyable dodge, two of the most important features for a striker.  The only compensation PV has is Close Control.  An Engineers player, oVelocity, outperforms Pin Vice by any striker metric.  Of course attacks weren't such a big part of Guildball I'd agree with you, but since they are I often find reason not to take her.

To each their own, but if my game is clicking (which is a big if ;)), then Pin Vice scores most of my goals. The advantage over oVelocity is the additional 2 influence which is often needed if you're wading through other players to get to the ball. I use both however.

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Either box is playable without any horrendous downside.  Skill will be the biggest bottleneck for months.

 

My gut says the PV box has more variance though, as Compound can cripple about half the teams and be mostly ignored by the other half.

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Thanks all for the advice.  I got my friend the Ballista box, and if he gets them assembled I'll get to face them on Wednesday or Friday.  Now to tech against him :)

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On 17.9.2017 at 11:15 PM, Wynter said:

...

  • Mother is basically a 6th player and can get goals from a stupid distance (there is also a new dirty Mother trick* which is sickeningly good)

*Mother drops a nest marker near its own goal and then disappears up the pitch to the opposing goal. If your opponent scores, scatter the ball near the nest marker. Mother can then retrieve it from the other end of the pitch with webbing (only the nest marker needs to be near the ball, Mother doesn't!) 

OMG. Just checked it, you're right.

Thanks for pointing that out, This could be huge. 

 

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I remember when I first got mother and I thought that trick of having mother markers near your goal and her near the opponents goal was meant to be the intended use of them.

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I'd recommend both eventually because Mother, Hoist, and Compound are all great, but the Ballista box is where you should start. If you want to play competitively, Ballista outstrips PV pretty heavily. Both have a Legendary that focuses on scoring a goal from far away, but B's requires less dice rolls so has less points of failure. B brings ranged momentum gain, a ranged knockdown, more durability, more area denial and control, and more consistent melee ability than PV. PV has some fun tricks, but just can't stack up.

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