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malladin.ben

Efficiency Butchers

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Wanting to start up a positive thread for a change.

There was a recent discussion on Twitter about giving Shank Support from the Wing to "fix" him. Without particularly wanting to go into the pros or cons of whether Shank needs fixing or not, the discussion led me to a realisation about butchers: we have a lot of influence-efficient models. That got me to thinking about an influence efficient team, and how we could maximise the efficiency of our players into a working team.

lets have a look at some of the options:

Captains: Neither captain has any built in influence efficiency, so either would potentially be a good choice for the team. Fillet perhaps directly benefits most from the rest of the team being influence efficient, given that there's plenty of influence spare to pay for her extra 2, as opposed to Ox's extra 1. But then Ox makes more out of those influence-efficient players you're putting into play. The problem with Ox is that using him denies you the opportunity to use vOx.

Mascots: The mascot of choice her has to be Truffles. You might want to take Princess as a sideboard piece for when you draw Sic Em, but Vindictive [Human] is solid and will practically always generate you a momentous KD, and has a good chance of wrapping for some damage on top.

Players: Let's look at the players that have some built in efficiency:

  • Boar: A fantastic choice in this list - you've got the equivalent of 5 INF output for 1 INF input, or 3 INF for 0 input. You need to protect him, as always, but a very good option.
  • vOx: Another good choice, and works really well with Boar. Vindictive [Male] is perhaps harder to trigger against some teams, but when it works he can supply the KD or pushes you need to make the other charge-efficient models work.
  • vBrisket: With a 4 INF cap she can be pretty hungry, despite her Support from the Wing efficiency, but if you can get a goal from her she can feed herself the extrsa INF she needs
  • Meathook: no real direct efficiency, but with 1 attack usually getting you momentum, hooked and bleed, she brings a lot for very little investment.
  • Tenderiser: A solid choice into the right team, he gives up his 1 INF and protects the lower DEF players early game, but then becomes a bit irrelevant later on. If you ever have to give him INF he's a bad choice because he then starts to reverse his efficiency. Does bring an additional 2" melee zone, though.
  • Minx: Probably the better of the two furious union players currently, and a great support piece through Marked Target, Screeching Banshee and the ability to apply snared. Very useful with just 1 INF assigned.
  • Rage: Same hyper-efficiency as Boar, but easier to control and no 2" melee zone.

So, you've got a tournament 10 that builds itself: Ox, Fillet, Princess, Truffles, Boar, vOx, vBrisket, Meathook, Tenderiser, and Minx.

What are the "best" lineups for each captain from this squad?

My suggestions:

Fillet, Truffles, Boar, vOx, Minx, with Meathook/vBrisket/Tenderiser as flex slots

12 INF, so Fillet can get 6 and everyone else gets 1 with an extra going to whoever you want (if playing Tenderiser you get 11, but give tenderiser zero). If you've got vBrisket (sho I'd only use if kicking) you're probably going to want to stack her up turn 1 for the goal, so you've got less to go around everyone else, but Boar and Truffles aren't getting in to anyone turn 1, anyway. You might want to be careful about ball retrieval, possibly giving vOx or Minx 2 so that they can sprint and kick, which means less for Fillet, but if you're focusing on a vBrisket goal turn 1, this isn't a problem. Once she's scored you've got 14 INF so an extra 3 after everyone's got their requisite 1 INF.

Ox, Truffles, Boar, Minx, Tenderiser, with Meathook/Brisket as flex slots

You've got an 11 INF team here, but Tenderiser gets 0, so you can fully stack Ox and still have 6 influence between the remaining 4 models, and you can't give boar more than one, nor would you ever want to give Truffles more than 1, so you can give Meathook/vBrisket/Minx 4 between them.

I've not tried this idea with Ox yet, but I found the Fillet team quite fun to play. I now can't wait to try them out against a few opponents.

Anyway, has anyone tried any lists like this? What was your exact build? How did you find it played?

Cheerio,

Ben

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I played Ox/Truffles/Meathook/Minx/Boar/Shank a couple of times a while back. It was pretty reasonable. You could give 2inf to ox, 1 to truffles, and fully stack all four players, or on legendary turn be only 1inf (or a goal) off fully stacking everyone but Minx, who doesn't benefit from the Legendary anyway.

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48 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

I played Ox/Truffles/Meathook/Minx/Boar/Shank a couple of times a while back. It was pretty reasonable. You could give 2inf to ox, 1 to truffles, and fully stack all four players, or on legendary turn be only 1inf (or a goal) off fully stacking everyone but Minx, who doesn't benefit from the Legendary anyway.

That's pre-errata Ox, though. New Ox wants 5 a turn. And Shank (whether you think he's bad or not) is quite inefficient, often turning 3 INF into only 1 attack, so he doesn't really fit with the gimmick of the list. Anyway, I'm sure you'll smash it as usual ;-)

 

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My optimum roster looks like Fillet, Truffles, vBrisket, Boar, Meathook and Minx. Fillet gets 6 INF, Brisket gets 2, Boar and Meathook get 1. Minx and Truffles usually have to do without. The remaining 2 goes to Brisket or Meathook, depending on the actual tasks. Of course the flow of the game often changes these thumb rules, there are turns when Minx or even Truffles gets 2. This roster doesn't feel INF starved at all, and things look definitely rosy the turn after Brisket scores. I don't think vOx offers too much efficiency to Butchers, not really. Sometimes he can do with 1 INF, but that's not a reliable discount, and even then, you rarely get more than 1 INF worth of utility for the 1 INF you spend on him.

I'm new on the forums BTW, greetings to you all. I really enjoy reading your Butcher related posts here, meaningful and civil conversation everywhere.

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After the errata but before the gic i was looking at Fillet, truffles, meathook, boar, vbrisket, and decimate. 12 influence team fillet usually gets 6 meat hook gets 1-2, boar gets 1, truffles gets 1 if hes near humans, decimate gets 2 and vbrisket gets 2-4 depending if she can score or just needs to re position boar or fillet. 

Deci can fight and has a decent playbook with anatomical but the real reason is for second winding fillet to corner those hard to corner models that have double dodge on 2. After the traits I might drop boar for boiler, or neathook for boiler.

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I like bringing vBrisket along with Boar (and also the Support from the Wing helps with the efficiency plan), and having Quick Foot form Fillet and Marked Target from Minx is a bonus.

I really want to try this out. I didn't think there could be that much flexibility in building a 6 of 12 (ish) team but I guess I was wrong :)

The list I will try is Fillet, Truffles, Minx, Boar, vBrisket and then either vOx/Tenderizer/Meathook depending on the matchup. Probably Meathook to really make the most out of a Fillet activation and provide some more damage

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I have found its easy to under estimate VBriskets damage potential.  I was playing a game against the Farmers and she finished off both Windel and Bushel for me both from about 5 health under Ox's aura.  This was obivously an ideal situation but with 2 damage on two she can be a useful damage dealer.

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This is pretty much my go to lineup for Buthchers Fillet, Boar, Minx, Truffles, Brisket, vOx. 12 inf and never really feel like I need that much more. Fillet usually takes 6, Boar 0-1, Truffles 0-1 if there is a charge on, Minx 0-2 pending situation (bouncing around snaring multiple opponents is fun), Brisket normally gets 3 early for sprints/supershots/poison knives, and vOx will take 2-3 pending how the rest has fallen. The Brisket slot is normally my flexi spot and I have changed her out for vBrisket, Meathook, Boiler and tenderiser. Pre errata vOx was Shank and every turn was shank 4 fillet 6 brisket 2.

Whoever you put in that flexi spot the team generally works well. vBrisket can help the slower lads with the dodge. I can't count the number of time quick foot and quick time have combined to get boar and vOx into the thick of it turn one and it generally always missed by the opponent. Often they see 0 inf on Boar and 1/2 on vOx and laugh thinking they are sweet. Then vOx is suddenly quick enough to charge in and pull an opponent into baors extended threat range (and do dmg if against a dude).

Tenderiser can buy you some nice board space early on.

Meathooks tooled up and hooked are great for Either fillet or Ox

Boiler not so sold on....

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Boiler I love and he is in nearly every list I play, but usually because I have Princess and Marked Target. With Minx and Truffles I don't think I will miss him so much (:wub: giving Boar that 14" threat range...)

vOx definitely fits with the efficiency plan but I find his damage often pretty underwhelming, and in your list I probably want another 'killer' like Meathook to help out Fillet and Boar. Then again, as a team list that relies on staying at range and getting the alpha strike, maybe having vOx to gum up the middle of the pitch allowing you to make full use of the rest of your Furious models isn't such a bad idea

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2 hours ago, kaladorm said:

Boiler I love and he is in nearly every list I play, but usually because I have Princess and Marked Target. With Minx and Truffles I don't think I will miss him so much (:wub: giving Boar that 14" threat range...)

vOx definitely fits with the efficiency plan but I find his damage often pretty underwhelming, and in your list I probably want another 'killer' like Meathook to help out Fillet and Boar. Then again, as a team list that relies on staying at range and getting the alpha strike, maybe having vOx to gum up the middle of the pitch allowing you to make full use of the rest of your Furious models isn't such a bad idea

Yeah, I think vOx fills the role Harry used to for me. 6 hits on the charge is the sweet spot: KD >> does with 1 Inf what Harry needed 2 to achieve (although you lose the momentum. It's not unachievable, too. With a bonus time or an assist, its a 50% chance vs def 4/1. The KD is very achievable on the charge, and then you can momentously 2" pull them in with whirling chains. I always try and position vOx so that a push directly towards him is as good as any other >> so that I can get momentum from a >> result, effectively.

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I got to try this out vs Hunters last night, with a 12-0 win. I ran Fillet, Truffles, Boar, vBrisket, vOx and Minx into Theron, Snow, Jaecar, Chaska, Seenah, and Hearne.

Hearne came in early to try and push vBrisket into bear range, but she took a pass from Fillet to dodge back.

vBrisket scored at the start of turn 2, and that extra 2 influence was frankly not that necessary. Boar got locked up by Jaecar early and relied on doing 2 attacks and not moving (pitfall nearby) to finish him over 2 turns. Fillet was a superstar as usual averaging 1.5 takeouts per activation.

I expected the team to play very differently, but with 12 inf and a fully loaded fillet it plays kinda how you would play the team normally. One big issue I had was blocking my own charge lanes - positioning is so important.

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So, the farmers are getting packed away until I can get my hands on Thresher and Millstone. The butchers are coming out tonight and at Jamie P's GIC tournament at the weekend, so I'm going to have 4 or 5 games to try this idea out properly.

Tonight I'm going to try out Fillet, Truffles, Boar, vOx, rage and meathook. I know what Minx does but I want to try out the shear brutality of having rage and boar working in tandem.

If I get a second I'm going to try swapping in Ox and Shank and see if Greg might be right.

10 for the GIC event will be both captains, pig, vOx, Boar, meathook, vBrisket, tenderiser, Shank and whichever of Rage and Minx tonight tells me to stick with.

More later...

 

Ben

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I tried Rage for the first time in my Morts team and my overwhelming feeling was 'Feels like Boar, but isn't Boar'.

He's like those hothatches you see that have been souped up but you get inside and realise it's nothing like driving that supercar 😂

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4 hours ago, kaladorm said:

I tried Rage for the first time in my Morts team and my overwhelming feeling was 'Feels like Boar, but isn't Boar'.

He's like those hothatches you see that have been souped up but you get inside and realise it's nothing like driving that supercar 😂

I drive a people carrier, so anything "sporty" seems fast to me. :-) But seriously, it's the comparison with Minx that I'm most interested in. Boar isn't getting dropped. Minx is efficient, but is more of a support character than a massive damage threat, I am curious to see what damage I can do if I have both Rage and Boar charging in.

Cheerio,

Ben

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4 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

I drive a people carrier, so anything "sporty" seems fast to me. :-) But seriously, it's the comparison with Minx that I'm most interested in. Boar isn't getting dropped. Minx is efficient, but is more of a support character than a massive damage threat, I am curious to see what damage I can do if I have both Rage and Boar charging in.

Cheerio,

Ben

My issue with trying to fit in Rage is that Minx and Boar occupy the same spot in my 6 man list usually. 

I'm usually trying to take hook vBrisky vOx. Then grabbing when I need to rely less on Fillet or need more damage threats and minx otherwise. The core flexs obviously since we need to make room for Tenderizer and oBrisky occasionally but more often than not I'm on that base 5 with either minx or boar. 

I'm not sure where Rage fits into that equation. I've yet to find a situation where I want both Minx and Boar at the same time, so I'm curious when you intend to bring Rage and Boar in at the same time. 

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I'm happy for Minx to have 0, but only happy if Rage has 1, which to me is a net loss of 2inf (as Rage generates 1 less).  Minx is also much more of a distraction  as she can chsrge and probably end up 5-6in away  after activation (effective 7-8 if you count snare). Once Rage is in that's it, he probably  only gsts one good charge. Both equally good setups  for Fillet  (snare good, bleed good). Let me know how it works out for you!

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The idea of the list is to try and find a new style of team. It's not necessarily the best, but it's unusual and hence causes you opponent problems. And its a lot of fun to play, if you like running at your opponent screaming.

I can understand that in a normal team minx, rage and boar are all vying for the same slot on the roster, but with this team I can max out the captain then put 1 or 2 influence on everyone else and still have everyone as a viable threat.

On my experience tonight, rage and boar in tandem is pretty tasty. And remember, even if you don't give them any influence you still get 3 INF of work out of them. It's not a bad idea to leave them with 0, your opponent still has to account for them in their plans. He might have been particularly good because it was against brewer's, so he got taken out and then got to charge in for a second time. I also managed to engineer an extra charge in the middle of the ruck before he died using pushes from meathook and boar (when his charge wrapped) and KD from truffles. I was a lot happier with rage than I have been with Minx - with vOx and Meathook the team has enough set up pieces and needs more output.

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2 hours ago, kaladorm said:

Good to hear he worked out. I'll test and see how I get on. Definitely giving vBrisket 2 every time if running Rage and Boar

Bear in mind that Maverick prevents Quick Time from dodging Rage.

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15 minutes ago, malladin.ben said:

He does get the benefit of effects that target enemy models, though, such as hooked, they ain't tough and the ARM penalty of Ox's legendary

Only if the effect is a debuff on the target enemy model, though. Rage gets no benefit from Singled Out or Marked Target, for example. I'm sure you already knew that, of course, but just for clarity in case someone reads this for a rules check.

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So I played in a little 3 round tournament today using the efficiency butchers list, experimenting with Ox and Fillet. Truffles, Rage and Boar played every game, but at various points I experimented with Shank, vetB, vetO, Tenderiser and Meathook. I Think I have found my preferred team for this style of play, and it is somewhat surprising, to me at least:

Ox, Truffles, Boar, Rage, Meathook and... Shank (!?!!)

I really like how this list works: you can give the pig, Meathook and the furious duo 1 each and still have enough left to stack shank and put 4 on Ox. In a turn where one of the 1 INF players doesn't have a likely valid activation you can fully stack Ox, and if meathook needs to do a bit more work, if can drop to 2 or 3 and still be pretty relevant.

I think shank works in this list because Rage and Boar are bug scary missiles, but likely not quite finish someone off. Shank is the long range finishing tool that just polishes off the berserkers' work for them, or goes and pressures the ball. Having the two berserkers gives people two big threats that they have to deal with and that takes pressure off shank. In the past he's proved a bit of a soft target, but in this list I've found he rarely finds himself attracting much attention. Old shank was go first of he'll probably not be around to spend his INF. In this team he can be a late activation and help secure you the momentum race, or get you that TO you didn't quite manage, or even chip in with a cheeky goal.

On top of that, the pig is really good for freeing up Rage and Boar, with his easy pish amd momentous KD. And a fully stacked Ox is legit outside of his legendary turn now too.

Lol, it's like everything I've been moaning about the past few months is exactly what makes this list work.... I'll get my coat.

In summary I really like the list and think it has lots if synergies to make it work. It just doesn't like the masons defensive stance shenanigans with built to last ;-).

Cheerio,

Ben

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