Jump to content
SFG Forums Closing On March 11th 2019 Read more... ×
SonofMars

Perception of Butchers

Recommended Posts

As I have followed the discussions about the GIC's along with some other threads I have noticed and interesting split in the community.  Butchers players tend to view the guild as on the lower side of the power curve and having several weaknesses that they have difficulty compensating for.  When things like the GIC's come out and don't feel like they do anything about this people get frustrated.

However, I have also seen several comments that would seem to indicate the community as a whole does not share this opinion.  Several comments have seemed to indicate that the Butchers are too strong.  More worryingly some people seem to feel that the Butchers play style provides for a built in NPE

So my question for you guys is what is your perception of the Butchers.  Removing any season two Fillet nightmare flashbacks (this really seems to be a thing) what do you think when you get matched up with a Butchers player in a tournament, what goes through your head?  

Note: This is a question of opinion so please refrain from any "your wrong you @#$% or anything like that.  Also, as you already know comments that amount to "get gud" are not useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I play hunters, my players are squishy, any Butcher player casually kills them with pure playbook results, to say nothing of the bleed, gangups, hooked, Smell Bloods, and Tooled Ups.

With that said I haven't faced them in a while, but the games I remember playing have been decided by the time my first player goes down. After that it's just waiting for Fillet to roll out her attacks and deprive me of 2-6 influence a turn while healing herself and 2 other players with the insane amount of MP she gets off of her turns. And that's just Fillet, the rest of her team still hits hard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I run Butchers at my FLGS and nobody likes to play against me. I have won one of four tournaments and constantly hear how overpowered Fillet is. I think that Butchers are an extremely easy team to learn. They hit their skill ceiling quickly and can be deterring to play against for newer players still building their skills. Once a player learns the game though, it is not hard for other teams to easily outplay Butchers. Butchers have bad counter attacks and don't offer many downsides on parting blows besides damage due to how high KD's are in their playbooks. This makes them hard to take into upper level games where they are easily controlled and unable to accomplish much. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not a Butcher's player, but I also don't think they're one of the better teams and I feel their GICs are too punishing. The problem you're describing I think comes from how the Butchers have a low floor, but they also have a low ceiling in terms of their skill:power ratio.

Butchers are very easy to grok and therefore get decent results with, and newer or weaker players can struggle against that because they don't know what to do against them. But because of the Butcher's generally short reach and poor anti-counterattack tech, among other problems, they're also fairly easy to shut off for players that know what to look for. That means that at middling skill levels Butchers seem oppressive, but at top tables they just don't have the tools other teams have.

Now, as for the GICs; I think they're overall too weak, but it does bring up an interesting question; is SFG designing for the tournament meta or for "middle-skill-level" meta? If the former, the GICs need to improve, but then Butchers might seem too strong outside of a tournament setting. If the latter, the GICs are probably fine but that means the Butchers tournament results are going to keep suffering. I favor balancing for tournament settings because there's actual data to work with there, and seeing tournaments dominated by a small selection of teams (Morts and Butchers S2, Fish and Alchs early S3, etc.) probably isn't great for the business side of things. Plus, middling players can always learn to be better players and thereby overcome a balanced team that seems strong, but it's much harder to get good results in high-skill games with underpowered noobstomper teams.

[Another reason the GICs might be designed the way they are; Published SFG material is always going to be behind the current meta due to a publishing lead-times and the limited amount of playtest time SFG has, AND some of the Steamforged staff is working "in the future", further muddying the water. Maybe the GICs as they are now would have been great for a prior meta, or are appropriate for the Butchers following some errata down the pipe; there's no easy way to know without some SFG folks saying, y'know?]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, jongles said:

I run Butchers at my FLGS and nobody likes to play against me. I have won one of four tournaments and constantly hear how overpowered Fillet is. I think that Butchers are an extremely easy team to learn. They hit their skill ceiling quickly and can be deterring to play against for newer players still building their skills. Once a player learns the game though, it is not hard for other teams to easily outplay Butchers. Butchers have bad counter attacks and don't offer many downsides on parting blows besides damage due to how high KD's are in their playbooks. This makes them hard to take into upper level games where they are easily controlled and unable to accomplish much. 

^^^^  Perfectly stated.  They also have issues with things such as unpredictable movement and being counterattacked and enemies dodging away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a Butcher player I would have to agree with much of what has been said here. 

Somebody early on said that every meta well struggle with the Butchers at first. Their strengths are easier to exploit, and the scoring game will be nascent. Everybody thinks their cool guy/gal with a nasty weapon can fight only to learn the hard way that some are better at it than others.

To criticize them on their limitations is to ignore the design of the rest of the game. They can't be good at everything, there must be limits. 

Bad counters? How does the player compensate? Few 2" reach players? How does the player compensate? 

By playing the game, by leveraging your strengths, and managing your weaknesses. Just like in any game. 

Preception of the Butchers? They are a team of surprising speed, decent defense,  good access to tackles, and high combat ability. Play their game and you will lose. Make them play your game. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These are definitely the Butcher's strongest aspects. They hit hard and momentously throughout their entire playbook. They have average to above average movement speeds. They have average defense with lower pools of health. By utilizing these tools, Butchers win games. The problem with Butcher's power level is that their tools are easily taken away from them by control elements. The team is highly susceptible to counter attacks. Those will occur while you are attempting to do what Butchers do and delete something. Fillet can have an entire 6 influence activation ruined by one counter attack that results in a double dodge. This is the skill ceiling that Butchers hit where players can take advantage of what they do not do well and play around them. I still think Butchers are a good team but they have very big shortcomings that can lose games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I'm pretty decent at this game and Butchers are one of the few factions that site unseen I will attribute a healthy dose of respect to before the game begins. 

Even if you can control them etc etc - Butchers can snow ball in a way that most factions can't.  They can get consistent one activation take outs and their momentum can just grow in a way that directly aligns with their path and to victory. 

A lot of factions have to take the long way round if they want momentum and yet Butchers just print it. 

Trying to fight them is like taking on a land war in Asia. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fillet dismembers me every time I play her. She has high enough tac to reliably hit her kd then proceedes to murder whoever she wants.  I then charge her and with her Def of 5 can't seem to burn her down in a single activation. Boar usually comes in next and does 20 damage to whoever tried to fight fillet. Ect

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dirt Rey said:

Fillet dismembers me every time I play her. She has high enough tac to reliably hit her kd then proceedes to murder whoever she wants.  I then charge her and with her Def of 5 can't seem to burn her down in a single activation. Boar usually comes in next and does 20 damage to whoever tried to fight fillet. Ect

Would you consider yourself a relatively new player? If so that would highlight the discussion in this thread so far that Butchers have gained a certain reputation as being very effective for newer players which haven't practiced the intricacies yet, but they lose steam as the opponent gets better is able to reliably use momentum defensively, control the ball to gain positional advantages, pick targets effectively, give up sacrificial targets to slaughter machines like Fillet if they get VPs and board position out of it, etc.

A KD on 6 hits is not particularly reliable even with a TAC of 8. Who is she hitting? Is this first activation or late? Is the target already bleeding? How are you spending momentum in the game? Are you expecting to one round a DEF 5+ full health captain with a charge? With whom? Was it better to charge Fillet and achieve little or lock Boar down so he can't do 20 damage? So many questions...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just looking at some rankings data to try and give some perspective...

Looking only at S3 results (S2 fillet was bonkers), overall they're pretty much middle of the pack with a 49% win ratio and 6th place out of 10 (excluding blacksmiths), so about balanced. But if you look at the bottom 25%, 25-75% and top 25% as bands, they are strong performers in the bottom 25% (53%, 5th place), but as you move up these bands they slide down the rankings in performance: 47% and 7th for 25%-75% and 44% and 2nd bottom in the top 25%.

I think it is fair to say That in S3 they are balanced overall, but struggling at the top end of tournaments.

I'd like to have had enough data to do the same analysis but from the errata date, as anecdotally, I think they're finding it harder since the Harry nerf (they seem to be the only team that took him that lost what he did for them, or at least of the teams who were, the only ones who can't also just swap in Benny), certainly at the level I play at (I'm inside that up 25%, just).

Cheerio,

Ben

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can only echo what others have said here and what I've posted in other threads. Butchers are a fantastic team to learn with and the fundamentals of the game and I even think you CAN do well in events with them.There goal is direct in a game, get take outs and take goal opportunities when they arise. Butchers took 2nd at Jumpers for goalposts last weekend, a 28 player event down south. It was full of the top 50 in the UK, so it's not like Butchers can't go and compete.

I think they do however just have some VERY bad match ups. The pace of the game that Shark, Midas, Any engineer team can bring I think is just too fast for them. If Butchers are allowed to do what they want to do, they'll dominate the game but I think they are one of the teams that can be easily managed once you know how. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, AaronWilsonCB said:

I can only echo what others have said here and what I've posted in other threads. Butchers are a fantastic team to learn with and the fundamentals of the game and I even think you CAN do well in events with them.There goal is direct in a game, get take outs and take goal opportunities when they arise. Butchers took 2nd at Jumpers for goalposts last weekend, a 28 player event down south. It was full of the top 50 in the UK, so it's not like Butchers can't go and compete.

I think they do however just have some VERY bad match ups. The pace of the game that Shark, Midas, Any engineer team can bring I think is just too fast for them. If Butchers are allowed to do what they want to do, they'll dominate the game but I think they are one of the teams that can be easily managed once you know how. 

I would suggest a bit of caution about taking this sort of anecdotal approach with respect to balance and data within Guild Ball, but mainly for positive reasons...

Guild Ball is just a really well balanced game, so yes, it is possible to do "well" with pretty much any team - Brewers have been at the bottom end of these rankings, below butchers, for most of S3, yet IIRC Charles and Sherwin have won events with them in S3. But that doesn't mean that brewers aren't without some problems that could do with addressing.

Balance is generally very good in this game, but could always be improved, and looking at the data is the best tool we have for showing where there are problems within the current balance of the game.

All that said, what we know about Butchers from the data is that they are decent but not amazing with newer/weaker players, but under-perform when played by/against the better players in the game, but overall just about the middle of the pack.

I think the trouble is that both butchers players, and a lot of their opponents (and by the evidence of the GICs, the game's designers, lol) all have different perceptions.

The original post, I believe, has come out of a post on the Butchers forum where someone was saying that they were finding that a lot of their opponents in their meta are reacting very negatively to having to play against butchers. The data should tell these people that they should not be so worried and should maybe get on their respective guild forums and ask for some help on how to deal with the butchers, as there will be plenty of players out there who know how to.

To the butchers players, we need to stop whinging quite so strongly. Our lot is not as bad as some, so let's get adapting to the post-Harry meta and see what we can do with some new ideas thrown into the ring. Maybe in 3 or 4 months time if we're not getting anywhere, then we can start to ask for a buff, but for now, let just get back to the drawing board.

Cheerio,

Ben

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, AaronWilsonCB said:

With respect ben, all I said was locall a guy did well Butchers in a pretty stacked event. I don't think that's anything I need to be cautious about :)

Yeah, maybe not you, but there are a number of players who readily dismiss the data because it doesn't fit with their personal perception of things, but if you understand that we're looking at small differences in a very well balanced game over a wide variety of skill levels, it can highlight where issues do exist. As the (former) data guy I perhaps get a little defensive of people dismissing the data too quickly.

Cheerio,

Ben

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know, Aaron, I was trying to explain why I might have appeared overly defensive at first. I was trying to say that I wasn't specifically addressing you, but others who have dismissed the data in the past. No offence intended, apologies if you thought it was directed at you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, JS said:

Would you consider yourself a relatively new player? If so that would highlight the discussion in this thread so far that Butchers have gained a certain reputation as being very effective for newer players which haven't practiced the intricacies yet, but they lose steam as the opponent gets better is able to reliably use momentum defensively, control the ball to gain positional advantages, pick targets effectively, give up sacrificial targets to slaughter machines like Fillet if they get VPs and board position out of it, etc.

A KD on 6 hits is not particularly reliable even with a TAC of 8. Who is she hitting? Is this first activation or late? Is the target already bleeding? How are you spending momentum in the game? Are you expecting to one round a DEF 5+ full health captain with a charge? With whom? Was it better to charge Fillet and achieve little or lock Boar down so he can't do 20 damage? So many questions...

Up until last week I was the top ranked Masons player in North America  on Longshanks.org so not that new. The butchers on the whole just kind of have me on tilt. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/12/2017 at 5:35 AM, Dirt Rey said:

Up until last week I was the top ranked Masons player in North America  on Longshanks.org so not that new. The butchers on the whole just kind of have me on tilt. 

As a Masons focused player, I 100% agree here.  Butchers for some reason are my hardest matchup in my local meta.  Combination of some good players playing butchers, and every Masons game against them is a nailbiter (I even feel more comfortable playing against Corsair with Honour :P )  I do agree however, that S3 Butchers are very well balanced and middle of the pack, but I will strongly disagree with anyone who claims their at the bottom or "below Hunters" as some people in another thread has said. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, kryzak said:

As a Masons focused player, I 100% agree here.  Butchers for some reason are my hardest matchup in my local meta.  Combination of some good players playing butchers, and every Masons game against them is a nailbiter (I even feel more comfortable playing against Corsair with Honour :P )  I do agree however, that S3 Butchers are very well balanced and middle of the pack, but I will strongly disagree with anyone who claims their at the bottom or "below Hunters" as some people in another thread has said. ;)

You'll hear bottom of the pack from more competitive oriented players. Players who are or are trying to be playing at the top tables in a given event. 

Which is quite true. 

The team is very good against players who have not quite mastered how to control what the opponent is trying to do, however skilled players can very easily mitigate what the butchers player is trying to do. And unfortunately this is the problem. The butchers truly do suffer at top tables, the team simply lacks some tools necessary to deal with a skilled player mitigating their plan. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×