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Hunters being swept under the rug?

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1 hour ago, Larhendiel said:

give seenah 2 inf and charge him into snared and singled out target, preferably with some crowding out bonuses.
but it requiers so much setup that any savvy opponent who lets this slip deserves whats coming

I think it's a bit disingenuous to allude that only less capable players get rampaged by Seenah while snared. A strong aspect of the game is to create tough/bad decisions thoughout the game. For example, it's pretty damn hard to set off Casket time. It's telegraphed and can be denied, but if played correctly you can either force your play or force your opponent to take less than optimal activations to deny your gameplan. 

 

I play good opponents, and they hate the bear. Ok so they removed the snares, thats momentum that could have been better used and the threat of the bear is dictating how my opponent plays. I can usually get one if not multiple take outs with the bear. This is primarily why I play with minx so much. Applying snare to multiple models a turn sets the bear up for future turns. Same can be done with Theron. 

 

I really like the bear and think she is a very solid model. My only real gripe is how easily she can be countered by KD. It's a bear, let her take a punch before getting wrestled to the ground.

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22 minutes ago, Anudem said:

My only real gripe is how easily she can be countered by KD. It's a bear, let her take a punch before getting wrestled to the ground.

I tried to give this some thought and in the end, I keep coming back to Boar in the Butchers, he gets 1 inf, he can get an additional attack, has a higher def, higher TAC, longer kick range and is furious.

Because of the double attack, he can of course get a possible 8 damage for free (furious), then of course spend his one INF he comes in with and gets another possible four damage, where the "Freakin Bear" can do four non mom damage or a Bear hug for Four or five damage if snared, does not heal any damage if taken like the man pig and its done as it has no inf to follow up with (i.e. 0/2 compared to the 1/1).

At times I'm thinking I should collect all the Manpig cards because obviously there was a miss print and Boar got Seenah proto type abilities and playbook.  *cough*

I hate to say it but @EpicChris may have a point when it comes giving her something like Sturdy.  Though I'm of the opinion there is no way the def is 2, being honest people don't run into bears and think should be easy to smack as it is very big. I think I was spoilt when I watched the Revenant and now that's a "Freakin Bear".

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5 minutes ago, Major_Fokker said:

I tried to give this some thought and in the end, I keep coming back to Boar in the Butchers, he gets 1 inf, he can get an additional attack, has a higher def, higher TAC, longer kick range and is furious.

Because of the double attack, he can of course get a possible 8 damage for free (furious), then of course spend his one INF he comes in with and gets another possible four damage, where the "Freakin Bear" can do four non mom damage or a Bear hug for Four or five damage if snared, does not heal any damage if taken like the man pig and its done as it has no inf to follow up with (i.e. 0/2 compared to the 1/1).

 

You make good points, but you're focusing on only the things Boar does better. Seenah can disengage herself, threats further and is more survivable. Does this mean Seenah is better? I don't know, but it does show they are different models. Cross Guild comparrisons are to be expected, but can lead to warping peoples expectations with their own models. 

 

Ultimately for me is, does the upside of Seenah outweigh the downside of 0/2 influence. For me Seenah is worth that trade, to some she isn't. If people do not want to play Seenah for her 0/2 influence that is very reasonable, but I don't want people to not play the bear because they wish she was Boar, Vet Kat or Rage.

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2 minutes ago, Anudem said:

Ultimately for me is, does the upside of Seenah outweigh the downside of 0/2 influence. For me Seenah is worth that trade, to some she isn't. If people do not want to play Seenah for her 0/2 influence that is very reasonable, but I don't want people to not play the bear because they wish she was Boar, Vet Kat or Rage.

I don't play her for the prime reason of zero influence, in that the inf brought in by ANYONE can of course be transfered elsewhere to possibly make the Hunters more adaptable.

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7 minutes ago, Anudem said:

You make good points, but you're focusing on only the things Boar does better. Seenah can disengage herself, threats further and is more survivable. Does this mean Seenah is better? I don't know, but it does show they are different models. Cross Guild comparrisons are to be expected, but can lead to warping peoples expectations with their own models.

You are correct. I'm doing a comparison, but in this case it still comes down to the fact, Boar is one of many in a Butchers side that do those things, but a possible twelve damage to our possible five?

As to the disengage, well of course there was a time she had no roar, and peeps pointed this out so it got added, but you know what, She still (As in always even prior to roar) gets ganged upon, so she still really is a 1/1.  Yes the extra inch charge is nice, but the "Freakin Bear only get's ONE hit point more than the manpig.  

Lets not talk about VKat exploding to gain 2 VP's, having another 8 more hitpoints, granted he is becoming a gelatinous glob, but the extra HP means he has two full rounds on the Bear (That is two activation's, six attacks for a possible 18  to 24 damage), before your damage to him brings the Kat inline with 21 hit points.

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[EDITING MYSELF] So I wrote a long rant but I realised this isn't the place so I'll summarise:

Seenah is a lovely model that if you pick can make every action with your team much harder as you have to plan perfectly with less INF. She can be abused by opponent to generate MOM and CPs so avoid running her into scrum early. She is actually 'easy' to control because she is so vulnerable to KDs and can be ganged up on as she has to commit to the scrum at some point (and unlike vKat who can take himself out to stop MOM generation, Seenah gets stuck there) so be advised she needs help to disengage. She is the least efficient model in the game getting 3 attacks for 4 INF so you need to maximise her plays. She doesn't do as much DMG as you think unless super-setup which your opponent can sidestep (so you might benefit from MOM but you generate less because less INF). Fahad is does better output than she does and can be setup by Zarola to avoid Snared being removed - try setting these up for a 1-2 punch similar to Seenah.

See - not ranting and vaguely helpful. I am...resisting...rant...urges...arrrgghgghghghggh.

I love the model but Seenah is not competitive in my opinion. 0/2 models I think should be special super soldiers that earn their 0/2 by being terrifying on the pitch. Windle is terrifying. Seenah is not. Seenah is not in the same class and cannot get the same support (and doesn't have Hale and Hearty protection). It's not she does nothing. But what she does by using up 4 INF isn't good enough. She is not a terrifying bear. If I were designing her, I would make her a scary motherflipper that has the weaknesses of sucking up INF and being easy to hit. She doesn't come across as a BEAR to me in her current incarnation. I mean she is a 1 tonne BEAR - seriously she ate Ghast! Why isn't she scarier. I do wonder if Berserk on her is actually as broken as it seems - 6 attacks for 4 INF with her playbook might not be THAT broken (compare Seenah and Boar DMG profiles)...I mean that would 'fix' her for sure...

Pro Tip SFG - give Seenah (a BEAR) Berserk. Try it. You know you want to...

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I thought about starting another thread but we are already talking about Seenah here so...

@EpicChris I don't think Berserk would be out of line but I can see where there would be some concern. I am curious of your opinion of the following suggestions.

1) If we kept furious and gained berserk do you think moving seenah to a 0/1INF would be unreasonable? That is 3 attacks for 3 INF and takes the built in damage buff into account when comparing to Boar.

2) Say we don't give the bear berserk. What would you think of an additional character trait (there is still a little room back there) along the lines of:

Frenzied - The first time this model inflicts the taken out condition on an enemy model, this model gains +1/+1 INF for the rest of the game.

Gives you a chance to earn back some of the momentum you have to invest in the stat line, makes the bear a looming threat even while engaged, and eliminates the "one-trick-pony" vibe that bear hug puts on the card (obviously you would want to get them both but not getting bear hug feels less like you wasted your set up.) It feels like a safe buff that doesn't directly boost damage output and adds to the depth of the model.

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The fix I had always thought about was

Character trait

Unstoppable force:

Once per turn if this model has inflicted the taken out condition on an enemy model it may declare a charge with out spending influence even if it has used it's movement action.

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8 hours ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

1) If we kept furious and gained berserk do you think moving seenah to a 0/1INF would be unreasonable? That is 3 attacks for 3 INF and takes the built in damage buff into account when comparing to Boar.

I would certainly hope she did retain the Furious trait, after all Boar also has Furious so a precedent has been set (not that it makes it a MUST).

That also said Boar comes in with 1/1/ inf, therefore I would be slightly aggrieved if she dropped to 0/1.

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8 hours ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

2) Say we don't give the bear berserk. What would you think of an additional character trait (there is still a little room back there) along the lines of:

Frenzied - The first time this model inflicts the taken out condition on an enemy model, this model gains +1/+1 INF for the rest of the game.

I do like this, however there are some others that would be interesting:

Loved Creature

Gluttonous Mass/Come on Then

Sturdy

Counter Charge

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Critical Space
While within the friendly half of the pitch, this model gains Counter Charge

Bears usually have a sort of space around them you shouldn't enter. You force them to act. I think something around this line would be a nice adaption of a portion of reality. No idea if Countercharge would be a good idea, but it could work.

Alternatively you could give it something unique.

Critical Space:
Once per turn if an enemy model enters this models melee zone, this model may immediately make an attack. 

That could be f**ked up. :D I like it more than the idea of a countercharge. It doesn't allow the bear to suddenly move around, but still gives you an attack.

Also, while writing this, I realize this was Character Trait Honor once had. Whatwasitcalled? Responsive Play I think.

Edit: Should also say MOV, so someone could still use a dodge to get into this models melee zone without provoking the attack. Seems a little unrealistic, but ruleswise seems to be more balanced.

 

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