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Union GIC Theory Thread

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38 minutes ago, kryzak said:

Personally I would never play Raise the Stakes (full disclosure, I haven't had a chance to try out the GICs yet).  Most Wanted will be my go-to since I'm a vRage player, and probably would do Pirate's Ransom for the heal rate. 

I think if Raise the Stakes does something that helps sBrisket/Blackheart more and is NOT related to initiative (why have 2 cards that almost do the same thing?), like help with movement (since both Blackheart and sBrisket are more "dodgy" players), passing the ball, or even getting the ball, that would be a lot more interesting.

Exactly we have the rage/combat card 

Now we need a neutral pirates ransom feels like a good neutral card. Decent heal rate and works for both combat and scoring. 

Now our other card should be scoring or complete utility. Like when a model uses a teamwork action that model may immediate make an additional 1 inch dodge. (make Harry relevant again!) 

Or when enemy model is suffering a ganged up/crowded out gain +1 tac. Heal rate 4.(or 3 if 4 is completely out of the question.) 

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Possible Union card suggestions:

Heal: 4.  Effect: Gain an additional Goal influence in the following Maintenance phase (so +2, inf basically).

Heal: 3.  Effect: The model gains +2 Tac for the remainder of the turn when it inflicts the taken-out condition on an enemy model.

Heal: 2.  Effect: One friendly model gains Shadow Like until the end of the current turn.

Heal: 3.  Effect: The friendly team may use Defensive Stance and Counter Attack for a combined cost of 1 momentum.

Heal: 4.  Effect: The friendly team may spend 7 momentum at the end of the turn in order to gain 1VP.

 

Just some thoughts, I could keep going.

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Heal 3. Draw two additional plot cards from those which have not been picked, choose one to keep.

Heal 4. Your opponents play with their plot cards revealed.

Heal 2. When one of your models with influence on it is taken out, you can immediately allocate that much influence elsewhere.

Heal 3. When the enemy returns a non-mascot model to the pitch which was taken out, it suffers 3 DMG.

Heal 3. Friendly Guild models gain Usurper[Captain].

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I like how much cleaner your guys ideas look. And a bunch of them look great. 

I played a game with raise the stakes today and it helped with one initiative roll out of the 4 turns we played were I rolled a 2 with 0 momentum and raise the stakes. And my opponent rolled a 2 with 0 momentum. So I won by one but most certainly would have had a better reroll. The 2 hp was terrible I still healed because I had to but its cause I had momentum to drown in.

I felt I would have rather had pirates ransom because 2 momentum would have helped the game that much more because if it I did go first atleast my heal wasn't destroyed. 

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I'm glad that +VP cards are gone, because I think it probably leads to less fun games and took up so much space for other cooler cards that actually meaningfully change the way that people play their guilds. With that, here's some hot takes on the updated cards:

Pirate's Ransom, at +2 MOM instead of +1, is obviously better, but still really boring. I'm okay with this one being the all-around safe but boring pick, but I'll never be excited about it.

Honour Among Thieves
Once per turn when a friendly Guild model suffers the taken-out condition, before removing the model from the Pitch, any Influence currently on the model may be allocated to one other friendly Guild model within 8".
Heal Rate 2

I think this card is cool and has some neat gameplay interactions, but I think those interactions are mostly for Blackheart/Brisket teams. VetRage pretty consistently goes first and kills at least one model, if not more. With lots of 2" models providing Crowd Outs and a fountain of momentum to keep the heals going, it's hard for all but the fightiest of teams to get a kill through the VetRage scrum. On top of that, when a model is in danger of dying to a follow up after a dicy turn, this card isn't meaningfully different than just allocating to models that aren't going to die instead. "Forcing" your opponent to kill a model because of the threat of their activation isn't that impactful when that model is one or two attacks from death anyway. And a higher HR could have prevented that kill in the first place, depending on the situation.

Raise the Stakes (updated)
Each time a friendly Guild model makes a successful Tackle during its activation, the friendly model may immediately make a Pass without spending influence.
Heal Rate 3

This card is pretty cool. Having every Tackle essentially be a Ball's Gone! is quite powerful, and this doesn't have to be used for some Magical Christmasland Tackle -> Disengage -> I'm Open crazy impossible goal runs to be useful. It's less exciting for vetRage as he generally doesn't want to fight over the ball as much as he wants to kill people, but being able to Tackle and Pass out to open ground against a soccer team has the potential to meaningfully slow them down without absolutely crippling his ability to get kills. I think this is the new best card and default pick. 

My overall opinion on these cards is much higher than the first round of cards, but I think you may have overcorrected for the lack of Brisket cards in the first round, as none of the cards now feel like they're meant to be for Rage. This is going to be a difficult task for Union no matter what, though. 3 captains and 3 GICs means you really don't have any wiggle room. 

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3 minutes ago, Redtiger7 said:

Union is probably the hardest to create GIC's for, because all 3 captains are sooo different in playstyles

Yeah it's a difficult problem to solve. Should there be one card that is clearly for each captain, but then there isn't really a choice of which card you play? Should there be 1 fighty, 1 footbally, 1 in the middle/generalist card that offer choices to each, but don't feel inspired by the mechanics of the captains? I'm not really sure which is best, but it's for that reason that I'm glad they are having an open testing session for this mechanic, because it really does need to be exactly right.

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I actually really like Honour Among Thieves. Two main uses I'm looking at:

- Throw Mist up the pitch for a goal turn one, and run up after him. The usual plan was to let Mist die, but if the opponent leaves him on low health and kills him at the start of next turn, he can't be given any influence or he dies, but give him zero and he gets ignored. With this card, instead they have to deal with a 3 inf Mist or he goes for the ball again, but if they do I still get to spend 13inf on attacks with the rest of the team.

- Gutter and Fangtooth can get your own players killed. With Rage (via Red Fury) or Gutter, you can potentially set up 8 influence activations by killing another of your own players with Scything Blow. You're giving up VPs to do it, but if it gets you a major takeout at the right point in the turn it's probably worth it.

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6 minutes ago, Akaleth said:

Yeah it's a difficult problem to solve. Should there be one card that is clearly for each captain, but then there isn't really a choice of which card you play? Should there be 1 fighty, 1 footbally, 1 in the middle/generalist card that offer choices to each, but don't feel inspired by the mechanics of the captains? I'm not really sure which is best, but it's for that reason that I'm glad they are having an open testing session for this mechanic, because it really does need to be exactly right.

The answer is possibly the Union need more than 3 cards.

Personally I would do 4 and polarise between fighty and footbally and accept that Blackheart would most benefit as he would probably do well with all 4 depending on team build.

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2 hours ago, Banjulhu said:

the Union need more than 3 cards.

Yep, that was my initial thought.

Bring me more cards SF! And to the calibre of the Butchers cards. Danke!

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2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Throw Mist up the pitch for a goal turn one, and run up after him. The usual plan was to let Mist die, but if the opponent leaves him on low health and kills him at the start of next turn, he can't be given any influence or he dies, but give him zero and he gets ignored. With this card, instead they have to deal with a 3 inf Mist or he goes for the ball again, but if they do I still get to spend 13inf on attacks with the rest of the team.

- Gutter and Fangtooth can get your own players killed. With Rage (via Red Fury) or Gutter, you can potentially set up 8 influence activations by killing another of your own players with Scything Blow. You're giving up VPs to do it, but if it gets you a major takeout at the right point in the turn it's probably worth it.

In addition to this it means you don't have to compromise. A 6 health vRage loaded to max with INF can bully the other team into trying to taking him out and then pass that influence to the model with the best set up. If they fail you still have a wombo turn coming up.

(Not replying to you so much as just trying to get your point about Gutter and Fangtooth as visible as possible because it was the first thing I thought of and is AMAZING if the board is set up right.)

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Let me just clarify here, allocate means I can add inf over and above the total inf a player can hold? So if Mist had 3 inf, got taken out and gave his inf to a 3 inf gutter, she would have 6 inf?

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15 minutes ago, Selfy said:

Let me just clarify here, allocate means I can add inf over and above the total inf a player can hold? So if Mist had 3 inf, got taken out and gave his inf to a 3 inf gutter, she would have 6 inf?

Allocate is limited by a model's max influence.  Gain is not.

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9 minutes ago, MechMage said:

Allocate is limited by a model's max influence.  Gain is not.

That's what I thought. So Gutter getting off 8 scything blows is through red fury? That could happen anyway couldn't it? What am I missing here?

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21 minutes ago, Selfy said:

That's what I thought. So Gutter getting off 8 scything blows is through red fury? That could happen anyway couldn't it? What am I missing here?

Gutter attacks 4 times, takes out a friendly model, gets their influence, attacks 4 more times.

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19 minutes ago, MechMage said:

Gutter attacks 4 times, takes out a friendly model, gets their influence, attacks 4 more times.

I'd probably take out my player, them mess it up and not take out the opposing player, thus ending up 2vps down.

This is a lie. I wouldn't even try it in the first place.

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I can see it being useful if you can score the game winning vps when your ahead by 3. And when you go into more fight oriented teams atleast it doesn't leave you screwed when fillet chops up rage. 

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My thoughts on the GIC’s for Union are that they would be better focused around pulling the strings outside of the game rather than directly benefitting events that happen in the game. 

The +2 MP card feels like it does this in some way.

My other suggestions would be something like:

Heal 3. Start the game with 4 Plot cards rather than 3. 

Heal 2. Once per game at the start of the initiative phase, one opposing player suffers -1/-1 INF

Heal 4. Gain +1 to the roll at the start of the game.

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