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Fishermen GIC Theory Thread

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Also my Shark/Greyscales scenarios were assuming you have 1MP so you can make the goal shot afterwards. Slippery can let you get that momentum in case you don't have it at the same threat distance as without though.

I've also come around on pay to win as well. Don't think about how momentum hungry it is, think of the momentum it saves you. You can now choose to not bonus time every shot, but instead choose to add dice after you find out if you need it.

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Boosting Shark's and Greyscales' max ball retrieval ranges/effeciency is the perfect example of niche, it could happen and when it does it will likely be a good thing, but in most scenarios it just wont come up. I do however approve of the boosting the counter attack dodge

As to Pay to Win, I know what momentum it will save me, 1MP per turn, at best. I dont think it would be overkill to have allowed the ability to re-roll one dice for 1MP on every failed kick action, at least then there could have been some noticable impact on the fish momentum management.

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It supports the niche argument but I really like that when Fillet, Scalpel, or Pin Vice rolls up on Shark with 6 influence you have a way to shut that down with Slippery Fish. I really feel like it is over cost with HR2 but I also thought Blood Thirst was garbage until I saw it in play and realized it was pretty ok.

I look forward to shutting Fillet's damn face down on a counter with 1 result, it will make me a very happy guy.

This is an exciting time to be playing Guild Ball. Between alternate deployments (dumb :P), GICs being adjustable because of our DIRECT FEEDBACK (awesome), Farmers and Blacksmiths shaking things up in new and exciting ways (#BlacksmithsOP), and a community event coming up, I am more excited to be a part of the community than probably ever before. Feels like the first game again.

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Happy with Groundwork and Slippery Fishes. I do wonder if i'll be able to proc the dodge when I need to, but certainly I think a free dodge has value. I think it turns on whether or not we can get that value when we need it, and less about 2" of dodge being bad. Definitely think its a card that would get used literally every turn, and that seems good.

Still dislike "pay to win" almost as much as "deflection."  It doesn't solve the problem of being fairly boring and basically only provides Shark with insurance. Personally i'd rather have something like "one free long bomb a turn" than shoring up my 95%+ shots.  I have a sliver of optimism that this card makes snapshots more threatening? But for a straight up shot, if i have the mp, I'm already pretty okay spending it to bonus time. And Shark stashing 1 or 2 extra mp a turn (cause he made a 3 dice kick and didn't bonus time) seems like the definition of negligible. 

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Pay to win seems strong to me - it makes Shark's entire game plan a lot less dicey. Missing goals doesn't happen all the time, but when it does, it can be fatal. Having a safety net is really good for him in my opinion...

Also, it doesn't save just 1 momentum a turn - you can take all shots in a turn without bonus timing, until you miss one. That's a decent deal to me since 3 dice kicks are likely to go in, but sometimes don't...

3 minutes ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

It supports the niche argument but I really like that when Fillet, Scalpel, or Pin Vice rolls up on Shark with 6 influence you have a way to shut that down with Slippery Fish. I really feel like it is over cost with HR2 but I also thought Blood Thirst was garbage until I saw it in play and realized it was pretty ok.

I look forward to shutting Fillet's damn face down on a counter with 1 result, it will make me a very happy guy.

This is an exciting time to be playing Guild Ball. Between alternate deployments (dumb :P), GICs being adjustable because of our DIRECT FEEDBACK (awesome), Farmers and Blacksmiths shaking things up in new and exciting ways (#BlacksmithsOP), and a community event coming up, I am more excited to be a part of the community than probably ever before. Feels like the first game again.

Just as long as Fillet isn't going first with Crushing Blow of course... 😜

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9 minutes ago, FearLord said:

Just as long as Fillet isn't going first with Crushing Blow of course... 😜

Right. Not that she wouldn't go first most of the time anyway but it does kinda force her to make that attack before we get the additional momentum. I don't know that they won't put a rider on Crushing Blow or change it all together. They removed G&S because of lack of interactivity. What is less interactive than not being able to do literally anything but watch Fillet remove a model without even the CHANCE to get out of it?

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Just now, Pending Forum Suspension said:

Right. Not that she wouldn't go first most of the time anyway but it does kinda force her to make that attack before we get the additional momentum. I don't know that they won't put a rider on Crushing Blow or change it all together. They removed G&S because of lack of interactivity. What is less interactive than not being able to do literally anything but watch Fillet remove a model without even the CHANCE to get out of it?

That was pretty much Season 2 wasn't it? 😂

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What Is wish we got was something that plays up fish teamwork themes like the "oh dear gawds please take sBrisket just once" identity that allows passes after tackles.

Maybe something that would allow a player within 4" of a model that makes a dodge via a teamwork action also make a dodge.

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2 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

What Is wish we got was something that plays up fish teamwork themes like the "oh dear gawds please take sBrisket just once" identity that allows passes after tackles.

Maybe something that would allow a player within 4" of a model that makes a dodge via a teamwork action also make a dodge.

Didn't you hear? That is a blacksmith toy now and they aren't very good at sharing.

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Slippery Fishes is very loosely worded. That's a 4" unpredictable movement dodge on Greyscales, 4" dodge from Hag's legendary or Fisher's Reel, 6" teamwork actions, 2" more on Run the Length, etc. 

Going to feel even better when you take Pay to Win and reroll 2 dice and miss both again :)

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Yeah.  All of your comments are making me think that Slippery is going to be the most run and will pay off more consistently.  

Right up until I miss a shark goal...  Then I'll switch and never look back.  

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28 minutes ago, Sunny Ravencourt said:

Yeah.  All of your comments are making me think that Slippery is going to be the most run and will pay off more consistently.  

Right up until I miss a shark goal...  Then I'll switch and never look back.  

I think that means that they did something right. I want to say that I'll run Pay to Win the most but all 3 really have some great merits to them. Other than possible changing Slippery Fish to HR3 (which it may not need) and changing Pay to Win to KICKS instead of SHOTS (which it may not need) I think I am pretty happy with this bunch. I can realistically see me running all 3 of them.

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12 hours ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

I think that means that they did something right. I want to say that I'll run Pay to Win the most but all 3 really have some great merits to them. Other than possible changing Slippery Fish to HR3 (which it may not need) and changing Pay to Win to KICKS instead of SHOTS (which it may not need) I think I am pretty happy with this bunch. I can realistically see me running all 3 of them.

You can run all three because they dont really impact all that heavily on Fish game plan, which is why although I can see the potential benefits I'm just not sold on them. They are probably all equal in power which is good (I'm thawing slightly on Slippery Fishes, still not liking Pay to Win) but none seem like a meaningful pick.

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6 hours ago, Banjulhu said:

You can run all three because they dont really impact all that heavily on Fish game plan, which is why although I can see the potential benefits I'm just not sold on them. They are probably all equal in power which is good (I'm thawing slightly on Slippery Fishes, still not liking Pay to Win) but none seem like a meaningful pick.

I respectfully disagree.

Goundwork into Brewers will let you play a little further up the pitch since one of the Brewers getting you won't necessarily set you up for a death sentence. Groundwork into Engineers won't trigger TOO often but the HR4 means you are still going to have a solid healing factor to deflect the chip damage they put on your goon squad turn 1 and 2.

Pay to win doesn't necessarily change your game plan all that much but it certainly lets you do what you are planning to do cheaper/more reliability. I don't know if you have missed a 5 dice shot with Shark yet but I promise you that when you do that a reroll will seem pretty meaningful.

I like Slippery Fish (playtesting it tonight hopefully) but I really think HR2 is just a little hefty for what you get. I could be totally wrong, I hope I am. It has sooooo many applications offensively and even as defensive tech it is solid.

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1 hour ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

I respectfully disagree.

Goundwork into Brewers will let you play a little further up the pitch since one of the Brewers getting you won't necessarily set you up for a death sentence. Groundwork into Engineers won't trigger TOO often but the HR4 means you are still going to have a solid healing factor to deflect the chip damage they put on your goon squad turn 1 and 2.

Pay to win doesn't necessarily change your game plan all that much but it certainly lets you do what you are planning to do cheaper/more reliability. I don't know if you have missed a 5 dice shot with Shark yet but I promise you that when you do that a reroll will seem pretty meaningful.

I like Slippery Fish (playtesting it tonight hopefully) but I really think HR2 is just a little hefty for what you get. I could be totally wrong, I hope I am. It has sooooo many applications offensively and even as defensive tech it is solid.

Heal rate 2 is definitely harsh (probably harsh enough that it makes me unlikely to play it with Corsair), but the impact it can have can be potentially game defining if it's played at the right point. While I think crushing blow is really harsh, the alternative of Fillet getting counter attacked by pretty much anyone's and them getting 3" away from her is equally brutal in terms of impact to say nothing of the utility to use it for an extra 2" of threat on Greyscales or Shark (or anyone using a playbook dodge for distance)... Its definitely good for a Shark game plan that's looking to win by early turn 3 at the latest. It's the balls to the wall choice, whereas Pay to win is the more cautious choice - better healing and insurance vs missing shots (which is often the weakness of Shark's game plan - over 5 rounds, you need to make 15 successful shots to win, and missing one of those at the wrong time can be fatal - missing 2 in the same game usually is fatal). 

I could see using all 3 of these (Ground Work as the default Corsair card, with the other 2 as flex Shark choices) with the caveat that for me, the reason I talk myself out of Shark in competitive games with my Fish these days is that his game plan gets significantly worse as your opponent's skill level goes up - Pay to win speaks to me more on this basis as it brings some momentum efficiency and covers disaster whereas Slippery Fishes kind of emphasises that Shark problem - I'll destroy less experienced players even easier by clever application of the dodge, but lose harder in attrition and against opponents who know what to expect. It does indirectly assist with getting the ball back into play vs ball killing however (just by adding movement to get closer to it) which is quite nice though.

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Tried out Pay to Win today and it was meh. It effectively earned me 2 mp. That was it. I suppose it could have saved me against a bad roll...but that didn't happen. I actually missed a pretty crucial pass where it might have been nice, but no luck there. I'm going to force myself to play it a couple more times but boy was that uninspiring.

 

I'm honestly not understanding the distaste for slippery fish. Was there a secret meeting where we all agreed to complain about the best card we have so SFG buffs it? Is it because it's just once per turn? If everyone could use it once per acitvation SFG can put the heal at 1 and I won't  complain... As is, it's basically a guaranteed disengage opt for our whole team of 2" melee dudes with dodges on 1. I wish it was heal 3 cause then maybe Corsair would like it, but Shark doesn't have the mp to spare on heals usually, so dodging to safety seems like a fine alternative to the heals I was barely using anyway. 

 

(Ground work is probably the best card but Its just only really helping sakana and a siren in my normal Corsair list. Sturdy on Corsair plus A+G don't benefit. Hag and the mascot are probably dying regardless. The heal 4 becomes the draw...) 

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16 hours ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

I respectfully disagree.

Goundwork into Brewers will let you play a little further up the pitch since one of the Brewers getting you won't necessarily set you up for a death sentence. Groundwork into Engineers won't trigger TOO often but the HR4 means you are still going to have a solid healing factor to deflect the chip damage they put on your goon squad turn 1 and 2.

I just dont see that. Brewers are exceptionally good at splitting duties between KDing and finishing. I've rarely seen Brewers overload a single player except when Tapper chooses to Old Jakes his team once the whole thing is set up so as far as I can see Groundwork into the Brewers will likely just negate one damage from the KDers follow up attack.

It's a boon, but like the others its not doing much and its best selling point is more down to to passing out a heal rate of 4.

I do agree that slippery fishes seems to be costing the team a lot to take.

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I’m quite happy about that, they all feel good and useful. I tried Slippery fishes yesterday and there are a lot of great applications for it. Had I actually remembered to use Groundwork in the game I tested it in it would also have had a big impact.

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So still cannot find a consistent use for Pay to Win. I have taken it in a few matches and have not been able to use it.

Slippery Fish is my biggest pick and can use it every turn. I really do not care about the 2 HP regen because I am bouncing around the Pitch.

And ground work I have only used vs Butchers and Brewers so far. it seems to just let me stay alive for one additional initiative turn but not changing the dynamic much on the "Dead Fish" games

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Groundwork :

I find that it is a good card, balanced, even if the equivalent to the Blacksmiths (Tough as Nails) gives 5HP, and even if I do not see why.

 

Slippery Fishes :

It is a really very strong, but not balanced card, the 2HP makes that that forces to play 3 goals, and against a good player it is very hard. Besides the opponents have not fun too much against especially because of 2 " on the captains, if they do not manage him. I shall change well the card so that only the non-captains can make the dodge of 2 " but gives 3HP.

 

Pay To Win :

I have never found that this card was more interesting than one of the two others, and when I used her, she did not serve me. I like the idea to "Pay to Win", but on the table it is not convincing. I shall change the card so that she allows to reroll only a single die for 1 MP (or can use 2 bonus time on a shot), but give 5HP.

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1 minute ago, comuniste said:

I find that it is a good card, balanced, even if the equivalent to the Blacksmiths (Tough as Nails) gives 5HP, and even if I do not see why.

They are as far from "equivalent" as they probably could be: in case you misread it, Blacksmiths' card provides +1 ARM when getting knocked-down, not +1 DEF.

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Well it seems my hope for a somewhat interesting teamwork based GIC is completely dead in the water, because why oh why would the team in the fluff described as being close and working well together have a mechanical effect in game to represent that?

Groundwork and Slippery Fishes really do feel like uninspired extensions to the teams current gameplans (get hit but keep the mosh pit going and try not to be anywhere near the oponent for more than 5 seconds respectively)

Pay to Win on the othe hand just feels like a waste. It's a card you take where you hope it never is actually called upon in the game. Yes Groundwork does the similar but it at least comes with a boosted heal rate. It seems like the card is only there for Shark because Corsair will only ever want Groundwork, but I'm struggling to see what major help a possibly conserved MP on the turn you make a shot is going to be.

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