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Fishermen GIC Theory Thread

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Mitigating factors:

- Fish have to win fast or they lose
- Goals are still resource-intensive to even get a shot at
- Killing the ball stops this just as surely as it stops making a goal shot in the first place
- As the discussion with @Frankanelli illustrates, it means the Fish have to turn to methods of points-gain that are largely less reliable for them

It doesn't make scoring teams better, which is Frankanelli's main complaint, actually; it makes their downturns less bad. Frankly, I'd like for more of the GICs to be like this* - mitigating one of the downfalls of a given team's advertised strategy, instead of making them batter at the thing they're already great at (Most Wanted, Football Champions) or covering up a weakness the team is designed to have. (I don't really think there are any of those in the GICs right now, but as an example something that gave Fish momentum when damaging opponents would probably be "out of their color pie", to borrow a term from Magic.)

* As much as I dislike Happy Hour, it falls into this category - Brewers aren't supposed to be bad at the ballgame side of Guild Ball, but because of their low mobility they historically have had difficulty against teams that are specifically good at it. Making goals harder is one way to push the game in the direction the Brewers want it to go without making them better at scrumming. I still think Happy Hour is a bad design - I'd rather the Brewers got some kind of bonus to make dealing with the goal run easier rather than having them give a penalty to the opposing side - but that's a complaint about precise execution.

EDIT: @Redtiger7

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Yeah that sums it up pretty perfectly. It doesn't amp anything up, it's just some insurance in case you're on the wrong end of 93%. I mean I guess that is buffing a strength? Which seems to be what GIC is about, reinforcing something core to the guild. Deflection sure isn't buffing our takeout game. I think it's fine as a card. It has a use. But I just wanted to temper expectations that it was a top tier card. I think It's agressively okay. 

We have to get some time with it and see if it makes a difference to the bottom line. I suspect only rarely, but if someone finds a good way to leverage it I'd love to hear about it. 

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Pass to Salt - snapshot - miss - jog or sprint to grab ball - goal? Needs a lot of momentum and a favorable scatter but doable I guess. Heck, 8 points is reachable if Salt's goal hits and the opponent scatters poorly. Doesn't even technically need Salt.

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1 minute ago, Siberys said:

Pass to Salt - snapshot - miss - jog or sprint to grab ball - goal? Needs a lot of momentum and a favorable scatter but doable I guess. Heck, 8 points is reachable if Salt's goal hits and the opponent scatters poorly. Doesn't even technically need Salt.

Yeah this won't be easy to set up but 8 points that fast shouldn't be. Could be a real weapon. Leaves some models deep in enemy territory though.

Haha a last activation with Shark an inch off of the enemy goal post and AWFUL rolls could be a 12 VP activation.

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5 minutes ago, Siberys said:

Pass to Salt - snapshot - miss - jog or sprint to grab ball - goal? Needs a lot of momentum and a favorable scatter but doable I guess. Heck, 8 points is reachable if Salt's goal hits and the opponent scatters poorly. Doesn't even technically need Salt.

The 8 points would have to be in separate activations like normal (i assume you know this but just clarifying for the sake of my point). the snapshot being successful would make you end your activation, likely with a stack of inf. The point: Pretty risky in an awkward way if salt has 2 dice so the goal is missing

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3 minutes ago, Ik-tornado said:

The 8 points would have to be in separate activations like normal (i assume you know this but just clarifying for the sake of my point). the snapshot being successful would make you end your activation, likely with a stack of inf. The point: Pretty risky in an awkward way if salt has 2 dice so the goal is missing

Ah, whoops, you're correct;

I was under the impression the activation only ended if the kicking model was also the model whose activation it was. My mistake.

But hey, 3 inf + 2 net momentum for 4-6 VP doesn't sound like a horrible trade. I've made less efficient goal runs.

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Football Champions is boring as all hell but it is functional and opens up the field even further which in threory should help us better avoid fights we don't like the looks of (namely all of them if playing a normal Shark list). Even Corsair can make use of the card because it turns all his team not just into strikers, but better strikers than nearly every other team has access to when he feats which should give him better options for when and where to scrum down.

Slippery Fishes is just golden for Fish in general. Keep your reasonable to high Def after a KD and buff it if you stand up before the end of turn... umm yes please I'll take two. Like Football Champions its quite passive in that we dont have to do anything to make it work we just choose to make it work when we want it, but it will make beater opponents have to change up their calculations and resource allocation to deal with models.

Deflection is just not doing it for me. Beyond setting up the 6VP trick play which is likely more trouble than it is worth all it does is makes a the rare occasions when you fail not quite as bad but a bad situation is still a bad situation. Maybe it could be good in a Corsair team who at least has some ability to take players out effectively, but Shark teams tend to suck at take outs and engineering 1 is still likely harder work and more resourse intensive than just going out and scoring again. As @Adran pointed out over 2 turns it does mean that even with two failed goal attemps out of four you would still win the game but that scenario is so unlikely to come up when most of the team can shoot on 4 or more dice so It ultimately feels like a card that lowers healing and only provides a boon in niché situations.

Personally what I would have liked to seen was something like "Once per turn when a friendly model scores gain an additional +1VP" because that opens up a more reliable and workable route to two goals and one take out, although it could just make Corsair rediculously overpowered, or possibly something like "Friendly team scores screamers on two or more 4s,5s or 6s"

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3 hours ago, Banjulhu said:


Slippery Fishes is just golden for Fish in general. Keep your reasonable to high Def after a KD and buff it if you stand up before the end of turn... umm yes please I'll take two.

I'm not entirely sure thats how it works. You only get the +1 def until the current activation ends. So it can be played around by KDing a model at the end of the activation. It feels better than the blacksmiths version though because our counter attacks are usually pretty live and it will force people to take kds early for a very minimal benefit. Still very good. But it's not just endless bonus def for days. 

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17 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

I'm not entirely sure thats how it works. You only get the +1 def until the current activation ends. So it can be played around by KDing a model at the end of the activation. It feels better than the blacksmiths version though because our counter attacks are usually pretty live and it will force people to take kds early for a very minimal benefit. Still very good. But it's not just endless bonus def for days. 

Curses, I thought it was until the end of turn for some reason. Still good though

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We have new identities.

Slippery Fishes is now Groundwork and is still really useful and good

The other two no longer seem boring just questionable.

The new slippery fishes allows a 2" dodge after a dodge once per turn but how often are our dodges already not big enough to get work done to begin with? With the lowest heal rate of the three it just feels too much of a loss to merit taking. For the heal rate drop it would be much nicer if it could be a once per turn 2" dodge triggered when the fish model chooses rather than be something they add on to a dodge.

Pay to Win just seems off. The 1MP spend is basically just a bonus time but one step later in the shooting sequence which makes thing more effecient but how often is the identity going to come into play, it is one of those plays that if you are doing things properly (good positioning, right kicker etc) then it will not come up. The Football Champions ability although boring at least would have an assured effect on the game.

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@Banjulhu  Quite oftern. Slippy Fishes gives us an extra 2" move, which is always a useful thing to have. Hag becomes a lot more useful (not that's isn't already), as she can hand out a 4" dodge, etc. In addition, with Shark, you don't really have enough MP to spend on Healing, so the lower HR isn't that much of an issue. Plus is makes Salt even faster :D However with it being a Once Per Turn it really requires planning to make use of it :(

As for Pay to Win, I can't really see a  use for it. With Shark, you don't really have the MP to spend, and with Corsair, a missed goal is less of an issue.

 

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15 minutes ago, ningu said:

@Banjulhu  Quite oftern. Slippy Fishes gives us an extra 2" move, which is always a useful thing to have. Hag becomes a lot more useful (not that's isn't already), but she hands out 4" dodges, being able to get that bit closer for a tap-in, etc. In addition, with Shark, you don't really have enough MP to spend on Healing, so the lower HR isn't that much of an issue. Plus is makes Salt even faster :D

As for Pay to Win, I can't really see a  use for it. With Shark, you don't really have the MP to spend, and with Corsair, a missed goal is less of an issue.

 

Ha I actually had kind of the opposite reaction. I think that an extra 2" of dodge once per turn on one model seems like a hefty price for an HR 2. I can absolutely see where it will be helpful though: Extends goal threat some and gets you out one fight if you can hit a dodge or push on a counter. Just seems like a lot to ask.

Pay to Win is awesome. HR3 is fine for it and, as long as you are rolling 3 kick it effectively lets you buy your bonus time after you roll. The ultimate in goal insurance. Even if shark goes first a lot of turns he is going to get 2 MP if you are setting it up right, sometimes he has more than that available if you ended in a great spot. Not only do you get to buy your bonus time after the goal you have the option to buy up to 3 of them. My only critique comes more in the form of a question: Would this really have been OP if SF just made it KICKS rather than SHOTS? I really don't think so but maybe it would.

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4 minutes ago, Pending Forum Suspension said:

Ha I actually had kind of the opposite reaction. I think that an extra 2" of dodge once per turn on one model seems like a hefty price for an HR 2. I can absolutely see where it will be helpful though: Extends goal threat some and gets you out one fight if you can hit a dodge or push on a counter. Just seems like a lot to ask.

My reaction was mostly due to me missing the "Once per Turn" part. I guess that's what happens when you try to process all the GICs at the same time :(

I agree, HR2 is a lot to ask for a Once per Turn dodge.

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Slippery Fishes is just extra speed in places where extra speed is not needed to my mind. A free 2" dodge at anypoint in the turn on the other hand would be awesome. I can see Slippery Fishes' uses but they are niché or overkill most of the time

But that is the thing with all three of our identities, even Groundwork which I like, they are all niche effects that may or may not do you some good every once in a while depending on the state of the board.

We get minor bonuses in odd situations compared to others getting sweeping bonuses (all Alchs getting Anatomical Precision for a heal rate of 2). I get that steamforged want to use this as part of the balancing act and so fish are unlikely to get anything really snacky given that they are seen as powerful already (a topic for another day) but something that has a constant effect would be nice (I like Football Champions even though it was dull).

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I really like slippery besides the fact I can't super sumo with it. Between offering the best counter attacks in game and the amount of added ball retrieval I think it has huge potential for Shark teams. Makes me want to play him again which is what I hope for any GIC outcome

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Would Slippery be better if, once per turn, you could add a :<<: to a play book result? For example, taking a tackle and a double dodge.

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4 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

We get minor bonuses in odd situations compared to others getting sweeping bonuses (all Alchs getting Anatomical Precision for a heal rate of 2). I get that steamforged want to use this as part of the balancing act and so fish are unlikely to get anything really snacky given that they are seen as powerful already (a topic for another day) but something that has a constant effect would be nice (I like Football Champions even though it was dull).

I think we are all kind of in this same frame of mind. I wonder if moving some of these abilities upwards (I hate to say this because I'm not 100% sure I agree with it) would bring us further from the center of the curve. I will say that at least these changes were more creative.

7 minutes ago, ningu said:

Would Slippery be better if, once per turn, you could add a :<<: to a play book result? For example, taking a tackle and a double dodge.

No. This would probably make it more closet case as it could only be used with attacks rather than being able to use it with attacks, Hag, purchasable dodges, after scoring a goal, after a pass, or with character traits.

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11 minutes ago, ningu said:

Would Slippery be better if, once per turn, you could add a :<<: to a play book result? For example, taking a tackle and a double dodge.

Much much worse imo. Reduces versatility in one category for versatility in our less picked results. Would make Angel, and the the Corsair boat a bit better, but I think the Corsair boat has plenty of options.

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17 minutes ago, Ik-tornado said:

I really like slippery besides the fact I can't super sumo with it. Between offering the best counter attacks in game and the amount of added ball retrieval I think it has huge potential for Shark teams. Makes me want to play him again which is what I hope for any GIC outcome

What can you see one extra 2" dodge doing that you could not do already achieve with the tools generally available to a Shark team?

Honestly if those were the final 3 cards, come Corsair or Shark I would probably be taking Groundwork for its decent healing and niche bonus all the time

For a heal rate of 2 I would have liked to see slippery fishes hand out Shadow Like or an ability similar to it that only allows for a 1" dodge to each friendly guild model.

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I think my absolute favorite thing about todays changes is that they changed a CIG card because we, the players, didn't find it "interesting".  My mind was blown when reading this.  They literally changed a card, not because it wasn't balanced, or not because the mechanic didn't work right, but because we players weren't excited enough about it.  This is the greatest customer service of all time.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

What can you see one extra 2" dodge doing that you could not do already achieve with the tools generally available to a Shark team?

When playing shark the game is decided by if you can reach the ball for the third time. An extra 2" on demand each turn is an amazing threat. Right now Shark can have one shot at a tackle within 15" by spending  3 to surge and 1 to run, with slippery you gain efficiency which will net you a momentous dodge and a second chance in case you fail the tackle. Alternatively he can get one chance within 17" now. Same exact story with Greyscales except change the numbers to 13" and 15". Sakana gets a real counter attack and the whole guild becomes incredibly able to shut down a stack of INF if the opponent can't buy a dodge or get a KD immediately, which is way more valuable than a heal imo. Siren and Sakana both have difficulty disengaging on a single attack but not with this GIC. My using Salt with the ball engaged by boar at the top of a turn now doesn't need 2 successes on an attack to get the goal (I've had this exact scenario multiple times). The fact that you have it in your pocket at all times can be huge too.

 Yes it's more of the same, but that's the guild identity and it's main deal is being more efficient than the tools we currently have. Changing it to an always on 1" at the start would be a boring reduction to offensive threat to me and removes defensive uses entirely.

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I'm actually really excited about all 3 cards now.  I know people aren't super hot on Pay To Win, but the fury that results when Sharky misses a tap in is real.  This is a great balancer to take some of the ungodly bad luck situation out of the fish.  I like this one a lot.  Slippery fish is probably the most consistently strong, but I may play Pay to Win to make sure that my strategy is paying off instead of losing a game due to a really unlikely bad luck roll.  

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