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Fishermen GIC Theory Thread

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Thinking about the current Identity the one thing it will do is make things even harder for an oponent kicking off as it means our wingers can more capably collect and pass back to the lines. It's not really something for that theFish player needs to put considered thought into but it will at least have an impact.

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I love Deflection, but I guess that means we will no longer miss any shots:D

I'm not convinced by Slippery Fishes, it doesn't seem that great to me... 

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10 minutes ago, ningu said:

I love Deflection, but I guess that means we will no longer miss any shots:D

I'm not convinced by Slippery Fishes, it doesn't seem that great to me... 

A Corsair team with above average healing and no drop in Def the first time a player gets knocked down doesn't seem great?

Deflection is interesting - take unsighted shots through your own scrum - score = profit, miss = profit and the ball likely scatters onto one of your own players.

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For Corsair "Slippery Fishes" is the clear winner. Highest Heal rate and helps in the scrum? Yes, please. Deflection is also good but the low heal rate makes it uninteresting, especially compared to "Slippery Fishes".

"Footbal Champions" is not a good card. I think "Slippery Fishes" and "Football Champions" should switch heal rate to make them equally attractive.

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I'm not sure I understand the point of deflection? I guess if I miss a shot accidentally, I can swap to pickup 1 takeout. But its already hard to take 3 shots in a game, 4 seems even harder.  i guess if i take 2 bad shots thats easier than 1 good one? Not entirely convinced.  I guess I could get janky and miss shots that my own models can likely intercept? Have to double check to see if that even works. 

 

It doesn't help the scrum teams that much because the heal rate is unacceptable for them. And the goal focus team's struggle with getting the ball back, not making shots. So hitting 2 deflections is worth just as much as missing 1 shot and then making another.

Eh football legends is looking pretty reasonable now. Actually play with it and you might find its a pleasant bonus. Especially under corsair's legendary. And deflection can't have even a heal rate of 3 or corsair just windmill slams it and takes pot shots at the goal everytime he's bored. 

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1 hour ago, LeadDiceandBeers said:

A Corsair team with above average healing and no drop in Def the first time a player gets knocked down doesn't seem great?

Deflection is interesting - take unsighted shots through your own scrum - score = profit, miss = profit and the ball likely scatters onto one of your own players.

I just feel that is doesn't work with the way I want to play Fish. If I'm playing Fish I'm going for the 3-0 game, so I don't tend to need/use the higher healing rate.

33 minutes ago, Frankanelli said:

I'm not sure I understand the point of deflection?

This makes the Salt rocket even between. Fire salt up the pitch, and you don't need to bonus time his shots as you are getting VPs anyway. If you bounce the ball of the goal a couple of times, you can be looking at 2VPs per momentum.

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Just to be clear, do you have to be within kick range to perform a Shot on goal? It seems obvious that you need to be in range, but I am having trouble finding this in the rulebook.

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Just now, Edek said:

Just to be clear, do you have to be within kick range to perform a Shot on goal? It seems obvious that you need to be in range, but I am having trouble finding this in the rulebook.

Yes. Page 16 S3 rulebook, Kicking sequence: "After paying applicable costs, the active model declares a target-spot, target friendly model, or target enemy goal-post within their kick-distance." (bolding mine) 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Edek said:

It seems obvious that you need to be in range, but I am having trouble finding this in the rulebook.

It's in the Kicking Sequence:

After paying applicable costs, the active model declares a target-spot, target friendly model, or target enemy goal-post within their kick-distance.

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7 minutes ago, ningu said:

I just feel that is doesn't work with the way I want to play Fish. If I'm playing Fish I'm going for the 3-0 game, so I don't tend to need/use the higher healing rate.

This makes the Salt rocket even between. Fire salt up the pitch, and you don't need to bonus time his shots as you are getting VPs anyway. If you bounce the ball of the goal a couple of times, you can be looking at 2VPs per momentum.

You can only score the deflection once per turn. So if you want to play 2 goals 2 missed you need to get tp turn 2 at least...

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Slippery Fishes feels like a no brainer for Corsair.

Delection sounds good on paper but Corsair would never touch it (see above statement) and for Shark it still means that after the unlikely situation where you miss you still need to  get the ball back and make a 4th shot with high odds of success anyway.

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16 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

Slippery Fishes feels like a no brainer for Corsair.

Delection sounds good on paper but Corsair would never touch it (see above statement) and for Shark it still means that after the unlikely situation where you miss you still need to  get the ball back and make a 4th shot with high odds of success anyway.

Or kill a player. Killing 2 is highly unlikely with a Shark team, but killing 1 is definitely possible if you pick your target right...

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16 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

Slippery Fishes feels like a no brainer for Corsair.

Delection sounds good on paper but Corsair would never touch it (see above statement) and for Shark it still means that after the unlikely situation where you miss you still need to  get the ball back and make a 4th shot with high odds of success anyway.

But it does mean that you win even if you miss 2 shots out of your 4.  Or allow you to push a model off for a take out,  or kill a mascot twice. Its not really a plan A, but it does you the chance to make a solid Plan b

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Love deflection. Moving the ball carries such a high risk that this certainly helps comp us for missing a clutch goal. Salt will be the show stopper on turns no one is in/ can make it to the backfield. Haha can't wait to see fishermen that are upset they made a goal because they wanted to farm some vps. This also means that if Salt gets up there without his movement or hasn't used where'd they go he could potentially have a 6 point turn.

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Heck, I think Corsair into certain captains might even be willing to go for Deflection. It depends on how much damage you expect to see put on your guys in the scrum. Not common, mind - Slippery Fishes is too good if there's even moderate damage or KDs going around - but a useful potential thing.

Deflection is great, and I will be using it exclusively for my Shark teams. Football Champions needs a redesign.

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Wait no I honestly need someone to explain how you are farming VPs with deflection. It's only once per turn. And if you score the goal then you're whole plan is miffed cause the ball is being killed again.

I guess I see it's use against other goal focused teams and as a way to almost guarantee that you only have to take 3 shots and then not worry about the ball too much.  Shark can kill the right target for sure.  But I don't see how its great. Am I missing something? I feel very strongly like I won't ever use it over the others atm. 

GIC strength is going to be tied to preceived guild strength and SFG clearly thinks Fish are near the top right now (probably more so when these were in development) and football champions is a gentle buff to a strength right along the new healing curve. I don't think it's garbage but I think it could be tweaked. I still think I would prefer +0/+2" on passes. I don't need to score from further away, but I could make some use out of more space. 

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Deflection's not good because of farming, but because it lets you mitigate risk. The biggest problem with the rocket-goals strategy is failing a kick and that setting you back by at least an activation and possibly a turn. Deflection sets you up for an alright plan B, and makes it so that all that action-investment at the very least gets you something.

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1 minute ago, Siberys said:

Deflection's not good because of farming, but because it lets you mitigate risk. The biggest problem with the rocket-goals strategy is failing a kick and that setting you back by at least an activation and possibly a turn. Deflection sets you up for an alright plan B, and makes it so that all that action-investment at the very least gets you something.

Right but how is that "something" relevant? It's not mitigating risks. If it made it easier for me to get the ball back it would mitigate risks. But all it does is it means Shark will lose with 2 more VPs. He frequently doesn't find himself 2vps away in games right now. You still need the ball the same number of times as if you had missed the goal, unless you pivot to 1 takeout. I guess it's basically insurance against missing a goal with a Shark team and having your whole plan blown up? You take it and hope you don't have to use it. Super unlikely Shark has the mp to heal a ton anyway, so that's the trade you're making for the insurance. Guess I see it. Definitely wouldn't describe it as "great."

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Part of the reason he usually doesn't get any 2VPs during games prior to GICs is that he has to get at least two to make them worthwhile. With Deflection, at least one of those can come from something he's already statistically going to do some of the time, and the second can be from another miss or a single TO, which is a LOT easier to arrange in the Shark team than two TOs.

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15 minutes ago, Siberys said:

Part of the reason he usually doesn't get any 2VPs during games prior to GICs is that he has to get at least two to make them worthwhile. With Deflection, at least one of those can come from something he's already statistically going to do some of the time, and the second can be from another miss or a single TO, which is a LOT easier to arrange in the Shark team than two TOs.

Yeah I see that. I guess my issue is that it's not helping me pivot to a 2-1 scoring breakdown like a flat +1vp to a goal would. It's taking the times I have to go 4-0 and making it 4-1. The 3-0 game is unaffected. 

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1 minute ago, Frankanelli said:

Yeah I see that. I guess my issue is that it's not helping me pivot to a 2-1 scoring breakdown like a flat +1vp to a goal would. It's taking the times I have to go 4-0 and making it 4-1. The 3-0 game is unaffected. 

Another way to put it; I already have flexible threat range in spades and Shark teams rarely have or want to COB or TAB. So Football Champions is hitting "diminishing returns" territory. Meanwhile, Deflection covers up one of the 3-0 strategy's weaknesses (bad dice luck, which is statistically going to happen).

With this, I can practically guarantee a T1A1 minimum of 2 VP unless my kick-off scatter was garbage or the opponent decides to use their first activation to kill the ball. There are murderball captains who can't say that.

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I worry that deflection just makes a high scoring team even better at scoring, and harder to counter. Now it doesn't matter if you gave the shooting angles cut down, intervening models galore. Fish just have to take a blind shot and there's no downside. A lot of the other cards that grant VP bonuses require a lot of set up and net only 1 extra VP. But Fish get 2 for screwing up? 

Excuse me while I pout against the unfairness of it all. Lol

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