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Butcher GIC Theory Thread 

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1 minute ago, jongles said:

I was not enthused with our first GIC that was revealed but after seeing the other 2, it may be the best one. Killing people behind their deployment line has never happened for me in any game. The other card involves me killing a model with the ball, but if the game is going my way, I will already have the ball and just be icing it. I see that the card is encouraging you to keep the ball in play for those sweet extra VPs but this is bad play and can lose you the game. Overall I am not overly happy with the power level of the GICs  compared to other guilds with the exception of Morticians who also got pretty shafted in my opinion.

It really seems like SFG thinks butchers are in a much better place than I do. 

The GIC we've been given are all narrow and have substantial downsides. Compared to other teams who are getting combinations of no downsides + huge upside or well rounded. 

The biggest issue I have with our cards is that we need to manufacturer not 1 but 2 takeouts under these conditions for them to be relevant. Or we need to sink influence into killing a mascot which rarely feels good. Especially since our heal count is on the low side and we are already super soft. 

All 3 of our cards play terribly while behind as well. They are all marginal rewards for being ahead, and Im really not a fan of win more/lose more cards being all 3 of our options. 

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I like the idea of gaining extra VPs for takeouts, it helps a TO team keep pace with a goalscoring one. I'm really not sure how the new two will play out. I think the main strength they have is in forcing your opponent to play in a way that suits the butchers player. Forces them forward or to keep the ball moving around or away from you (and hence the goal). Surely there are problems with both, in theory (too easy to just get the ball away, taking out a ball carrier means the ball scatters, easy for the opponent to just move forward, and 4" from deployment line isn't really very far forward), but I think it'll be interesting to give them a go and see how often they can be leveraged.

What's good about the set is that they cover us with effects that are good against a range of teams. Life Drinker is "good" into other combat teams, the 8" from the goal line one is "good" vs stand off range combat teams and the other one "good" vs footballing teams. That said, "good" is only a relative term. Overall the power level of these seem very weak in comparison to the other guilds' cards.

I think we need to read a bit between the lines here. We've already been told there's more coming to season 3 than we know about, and that whenever we talk about balance we need to be careful because we don't know what's coming down the line. We've also been told that these cards are to be used as a balancing mechanic. If that is true, all I can say is we must have something phenomenal on the way. Something must be coming that's going to push butchers to the top of the meta tree. I cant wait to see what's coming. 

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I believe if they increased the range from 8" to 10" Take it to em would be worth the heal rate 2. This would encourage players to take the fight to the enemy's side of the pitch but not be extremely hard to pull off like it is currently. This change may sound ridiculously strong, but when compared to the Union heal rate 2 card that allows for +1 VP if a model is killed while engaged by 2 or more models it feels in line with the power level of a heal rate 2 card. 

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I want to talk about the GICs in general, the theory as I understand it, and how the Butchers ones play out. Spoiler: I think the Butchers ones are incredibly bad. 

My understanding of the GICs is to try to emphasize the fluff of the guild, rebalance them with regards to each other without having to errata player cards, and make you think about different roster compositions because they obviously help some players more than others. This last one is important because I think there are some examples of this in the GICs where they certainly accomplish that but not in Butchers, particularly when you consider what is already seeing heavy play. Overall, and I will beat this horse repeatedly, these seem to be penalizing the Butchers though particularly because they are a team that already are glass cannons, not having the best survivability to begin with. 

I will try to give some kind of recommendation about what to do to fix these as well. 

Tactical Elimination: The -1 of the bunch. For those not aware, if you Take Out a player in possession of the ball, this gives you +1 VP,. You lose one off your Heal Rate to take this. I see what is going on here, emphasizing the Butchers tendency to play more for Take Outs than playing football. It's in our fluff, it is one of the things that amuses me about the guild, being a bunch of hatchetmen just ignoring the reason that everyone is ostensibly on the pitch. But in this case, this is encouraging bad behavior. Taking out the ball carrier random scatters it. You may not get it back. You are giving up the option to take the ball and try for a 4 VP goal to go for a 3 VP takeout instead. I am not preventing my opponent enough from trying for that 4 VP goal of their own when the ball lands somewhere and I no longer have an activation to try to interact with where it landed. This is probably the "best" of the three because it has the lowest downsides but it doesn't feel like I want to play this. I'd rather have no "benefits" and still have a Heal Rate of 4, but since playing without them is not an option, I am probably stuck taking this one and rarely getting more VP from it while my team becomes a touch less squishy. 

Suggestion: Borrowing from the Big League for a name, make it Bloody Tackle. If a model inflicts the Taken Out condition to an enemy model in possession of the ball marker, the friendly team gains +1 VP. In addition, do not perform a ball scatter. The friendly model that inflicted the Taken Out condition gains possession instead. 

For ignoring the chance at a goal right now, I am taking the ball for the future. A Butchers style tackle where we cut you down and then take it instead of playing football normally. Butchers are probably supposed to be a team of dirty hits and this would feel like that. 

Take it to 'em: Once per turn, when a friendly Takes Out an enemy player within 8" of the enemy goal, gain +1 VP. Heal Rate of 2. 

My god this is bad. Remember what I mentioned before about understanding these were to encourage different rosters? This does this in the wrong way. Ox is already underrepresented compared to Fillet to the point where he was one of the only buffs in the Summer Errata. He is too slow to make good use of this until possibly late game. Compare it to Lead To Gold in Alchemists, which while possible with a number of player combinations, encourages Smoke in particular because of the ease with which she creates or duplicates Ongoing Effect AOEs. But in that case, if you want to play Midas, you can play a mix of other players like Harry and Flask to get those AOEs out there, it just requires more set up before going for the goal. Meanwhile, Take It To 'Em, is Fillet straight up. Ox likes to play a scrummy deathball to make use of his aura. That is his entire schtick. His team wants to stay close. 

But let's make that positioning requirement even worse. First off, if you are getting into a fight on their side of the pitch with a reduced heal rate, you are going to suffer take outs faster. Now, getting your players back into the fight is harder because of the distance involved. Further putting Ox out of contention. On the flip side, your opponent could just make sure the fight is NOT happening near their goal post! They push past 8" and then this GIC is literally harming you with zero benefit. 

Suggestion: Raise the Heal Rate to 4. Looking at some other guilds, again like Alchemists, they have GICs with Heal Rate 4 still, the standard. Some like Chemical Resistance are really corner case. If your opponent doesn't bring Condition Damage, then Chemical Resistance does zero good...but it also doesn't penalize you. I think probably every guild needs to have one of these with a super minor, cornercase or easily mitigated benefit that still has the standard Heal Rate. The case of, "None of these are terribly relevant to this matchup or the lineup I think I should play, but this isn't going to penalize me either" option. 

Blood Thirst: -2 Heal Rate, everyone gains Life Drinker. And you thought the last one was bad...

So, this is possibly the most egregious one of the lot because it is so easily compared against playing without it since the benefit is affecting your healing in game as well as the drawback of the lowered Heal Rate. Like, it feels like it is trying to offset the healing downside with healing. Just let me play without it! 

First, we have to consider that the card is -4 healing from Momentum for each player per turn. So the card is trying to make up for that. On non captains, this means it is 3-4 without wraps if they have a full load AND can spend all of it on attacks (instead of Tooled Up, sprinting, charging, Swift Stancing, etc.) This is often less than which is now less healing for that player in a turn. Further, because this and the 2 HP from Take A Breather are done during their activation, it has reduced the flexibility to heal them after they get beat on more by moving more of their healing into activation. On a captain like Fillet, even if she can swing 6 times, this now means a max of 10 HP healed. Again, this isn't often true since she either is charging or walking and looking for a Blood Rain to kick things off which is now reducing that max healing to 8 or 9, again about on par with the system as it currently is, not really giving a benefit at all. 

And then you have Boar who already has it to he goes from healing a max of 12 to a max of 8 in a turn. Just four off the top, no compensation. Again, similar to the Take it to 'Em, this feels more like punishing a player choice than encouraging me to think about some different ones. 

This one is so weird because the GICs seem to be founded on the idea of trading resilience through longevity for some other benefit. Except that Blood Thirst is trading resilience for....resilience? What? And it doesn't actually help. In ideal circumstances, it is a zero loss except for flexibility, but in many cases is actually a straight loss. 

Suggestion: Decide where we want to go with this. If we still want it doing Life Drinker to encourage Playbook damage results for healing, I think you have to just increase the Heal Rate to 3. The benefit should outweigh the penalty by at least a little. 

Or, keep it at 2 and make it so when a player inflicts the Taken Out condition, that player heals to full. Huge burst of healing, predictable and sometimes maybe pretty meh. Or allows them to heal to full if they Take a Breather after the Take Out. This would seem strong and admittedly seems to be against the idea of wanting to make the game faster with more takeouts since it gives more healing. 

Or, it could be 2 or 3 (needs testing), but make Blood Thirst into: Once per turn, when a friendly model inflicts the Taken Out condition, a friendly model within 6" may make a free Jog or one attack. (Could be either the same model or could be changed to Other friendly model)

Intention on the last one is to show the kind of blood frenzy that can get going. One of them kills someone, and the others get riled up. It creates an interesting slingshot of some extra movement if no one is nearby or another hit if they are, possibly one before an activation, etc. This also stays in line with the stated intention of trying to make the game faster through more frequent takeouts since it is generating either movement or an attack to feed into that takeout intention. It is also the Butchers doubling down on the glass cannon idea. Even at a Heal Rate of 3, that is less healing for a potential of more damage output. That FEELS like the Butchers. 


I will admit I have not gotten to play any of these, but I can say that none of them as are make me excited to play Butchers at all. I see ones in other guilds that make me want to play those instead. They look interesting, creating interesting plays or new avenues of choice. They look FUN. The Butchers ones do not look like fun and mathematically sometimes feel like I am going to have less fun (the glass cannon nature of the Butchers can be a downer sometimes). But Butchers are my favorite guild and so I wanted to write up the theory at least here. Being the internet, I expect to be eviscerated for my opinions, but I hope they are of help to someone. 

Thanks for sticking through this long post to the end. 

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Even more disappointing than the fact our cards are pretty bad (along with Morts) is the fact that the cards are incredibly boring and uninspired.

Two gain VP effects and a different (sometimes better/sometimes worse) way of healing. Really boring. There are a lot of directions they could have went with these. Can't say I'm happy or excited for these particular cards.

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I've been thinking about these cards from a thematic point of view and I'm starting to wonder if they're possibly coming about things from the wrong direction.

What are the key characteristics about butcher play? They are classically referred to as the glass cannon faction. Aesthetic-wise butchers tend to be lythe, and ruleswise they typically lack momentum on their already limited number of pushes, KDs and fancy character plays. Butchers are about raw damage output. To use a video gaming term, they are all about the melee DPS, in DnD terms, they're the party rogue.

In S3 I've found it difficult to match the pace of scoring with the goal scoring teams, so initially seeing the additional VPs for takeouts appealed.

However, on reflection, I am wondering if these cards are going about things the wrong way. Rather than giving us extra VPs for takeouts, I would suggests we need more takeouts. That is the butchers way. Much as I still think the balance of Blood Thirst needs work (a simple comparison with the Engineers regenerate one shows how poor it is), the theme of it is fantastic. It rewards the sort of raw aggressive damage output that butchers should be focusing on.

Rather than give us extra VPs for takeouts in weird positions, give us extra damage against models that fit the criteria. Rather than gaining an extra VP for taking out the ball carrier, gain an extra damage to playbook damage against them. Extra damage against models within 8" of the goal line is perhaps a bit much, so maybe forceful blow or (better) +2" charge against them. 

Just to consider the balance of +1 dmg vs +1 vp for a moment, the vast majority of butchers models can hit their 2 eng result pretty reliably. On these models. Adding +1 damage to this level of output is the same INF-to-VP ratio as adding 1VP to a takeout. There are obviously additional benefits to taking out a model, but also there's the fact that as soon as you start to accrue additional bonuses the relative inf-to-VP ratio is reduced. A 1 dmg result is the erroneous outlier that perhaps makes a +1 dmg result more powerful, so perhaps it could be +1 damage to playbook damage results of 2 or higher..?

As to the idea of +2" charge, the current card seems to me to force the opponent to push forward, rather than actually generate the butchers any VP. Assuming that is the case (and I am happy to be proven wrong) it seems to me that the butchers player's opponent can still hold back their models to deny the butcher attacks, until the point where it becomes inevitable at which point the simply bring them forward. This can be a big NPE for a butcher player that just wants to run at you and hit you. Surely it is better in terms of theme and in terms of playability to give the butchers a better ability to close down the opponent and actually get into combat than give them a bonus VP of their opponent cocks things up.

Another thought on Take it to 'Em: the biggest problem people referred to with S1/2 shank was his ability to take out models as they returned to the pitch. The only real way to actively engineer bonus VP from this card (as opposed to passively gaining the point because your opponent didn't move their models out) is to take out a model after they have returned to play. Is this card just going to make out opponents salty despite beating us 12-11. Another advantage to the +2" range idea is that you could specify it only works against undamaged models.

tl,dr: a damage bonus of charge range bonus is much more thematic than a VP bonus for takeouts.

Cheerio,

Ben

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37 minutes ago, malladin.ben said:

tl,dr: a damage bonus of charge range bonus is much more thematic than a VP bonus for takeouts.

So what's super amusing is that SFG printed a card that meets the theme you are discussing perfectly. 

Except the butcher didn't get it. The masons did. 

I would absolutely love to have the once per turn get a 4" dodge after a kill card on Butchers

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I can't see that it's time to openly weep over the CID. How many games have you lost so far over them? 

I do agree that SF acts like our guild is their biggest concern in terms of game balance, and it seems like these are more like limiters than buffs. 

I would like to know what some of you consider tanks in guild ball. The average in the Butchers is a 4/1 defense, objectively better than the average Brewer and arguably better than the average Mason. If you are getting beat up so much you need to recover 8hp to stay in the fight... really what are you doing? 

Let's get some games in before we theory craft ourselves out of the game.

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2 hours ago, Folkenhellfang said:

I would like to know what some of you consider tanks in guild ball. The average in the Butchers is a 4/1 defense, objectively better than the average Brewer and arguably better than the average Mason. If you are getting beat up so much you need to recover 8hp to stay in the fight... really what are you doing? 

The models I consider tanks in guild ball are largely ones with excellent counter attacks as well as good defensive stats. But you've also got to factor in total hp into the mix. Calculus and Mercury at 15hp and def 4/1 are therefore tankier than boiler and meathook. Also whether a model is a tank or not is about the ratio between output and the ability to absorb hits.

It's not so much the total healing I have a problem with, it's the timing of when that healing can be applied. For example, a full health Fillet activates early does her thing, but gets no reward for Blood Thirst. Later in the turn she gets a bit if a beating, but she's solid enough that it's going to take 2 activations at least for the enemy to take her out. In a normal game, the ability to heal her up 4 hp imbetween those activations was critical, I'm not sure 2 will be.

I also think the 'average' heal being 3 hp hurts Fillet: a lot of the time players would choose to heal 4hp rather than clear bleed, now they will pretty much always clear bleed. 

But anyway, GIC is not a normal game, so we have to say goodbye to that and learn the new way to play with these cards. They are going to make a completely new meta when they come online and start to get used at an event. Maybe the fact that everybody is going down in healing helps us out..?

Thematically I am happy with having the lowest average heal in butchers, I just wish the bonus we got in it's place was more focused on output than on VPs. And if we're saying that we're happy with a low heal rate, blood thirst then kind of seems counter-thematic to this new mechanical theme we're establishing.

My suggestions:

Tactical Elimination: Heal 2. When making an attack that targets an enemy model in possession of the ball-marker, friendly models gain +1 damage to playbook damage results.

Take it to 'Em: Heal 3. When a friendly guild model declares a charge against an enemy model within 8" of the enemy goal line, the friendly model gains [+0"/2"] MOB for the duration of the charge.

Blood Thirst: Heal 2. Friendly guild models gain Painful Rage [X] (probably just a flat 6, but maybe 1 less than their icy sponge hp)

With that set you've still got one that's good against combat teams, one that's good against goalscoring teams, and one that's good against stand off/control teams, but they focus on actual output, which I think is much more in theme with butchers.

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Sooooooo random thoughts on paper. I think that SF have just got the Butchers all sorts of wong for the CID. Was excited to see two better cards. Then saw two cards that would still be weak if the heal rate was better. For some reason SF seem to think Butchers are the guild that needs stamping on again. S3 hurt us with the better footballing game and now they want to pull the average Heal rate down to help us but ensure we have the lowest overall heal rate of any guild in the game!!! WTF WTF WTF!!

Way I see it other factions looking at you brewers get +1 VP bonuses for more achievable criteria (eg having one other team mate engaging the taken out model) but keep the higher heal rate and they are a team with Multiple tough hide and strong KD push counters etc. Alchemists for scoring while having two ongoing AOE on the field is almost a given as well.

All three Butchers GIC lend themselves to a lets rush up the field and not try to play the game at all style. I do not like them at all.

The local meta is not even looking to trial any of the cards for the fact that there just does not seem to be any balance or consistency in power level between the GIC.

As a Hunters player I love the idea of bonuses from snared, do I want a free counter attack. No. What I want is to be able to move any traps on the table that are no longer near the action. As butchers player I want the potential to do what I do more, without feeling like I have to hoon up the field as quick as possible I.e more TAC or DMG buffs. I would even take the 2x 2 heal rate cards we have if one of them gave my team anatomical or forced players to spend 2mp to defensive stance over lifedrinker.

Sorry Steam forged, I normally find the goodness in all you do but I am just not interested in any of the Butchers GIC and think the whole system needs to be treated like the rookies were. Shelved until they make any sense.

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10 hours ago, Skuloth said:

So what's super amusing is that SFG printed a card that meets the theme you are discussing perfectly. 

Except the butcher didn't get it. The masons did. 

I would absolutely love to have the once per turn get a 4" dodge after a kill card on Butchers

Yeah, I saw that one. I actually think it's better suited to masons, as that dodge is in any direction, whereas butchers in my mind should be running towards the opponent as much as possible. 

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24 minutes ago, masterkdog said:

...ensure we have the lowest overall heal rate of any guild (1)...

... Alchemists for scoring while having two ongoing AOE on the field is almost a given as well (2)...

...All three Butchers GIC lend themselves to a lets rush up the field and not try to play the game at all style (3)...

... there just does not seem to be any balance or consistency in power level (4)...

(1) I can kind of see that this works thematically but the balance between this and the pay off is poor currently. We need more output on the cards to make up for it. 

(2) I saw that one and thought 'well, I could do that with my butchers', lol. Molotov and pain circle, job done.

(3) to some extent I think this is the one thing I like about them. I agree that they're pushing you into making sub-optimal choices, but they are also pushing you into making thematic choices.

What the cards need to do is make those thematic choices less likely to be the sub-optimal ones. At the moment I don't think they do. +1vp is nothing unless you can leverage it twice in the game or on mascot, and these just seem to give your opponent easy ways to prevent that.

(4) SFG have stayed that these cards are designed to balance guilds. Looking at the butchers cards in comparison it seems clear that they think butchers are the most powerful guild in the game, or at least will be by the time these come out officially. That makes me hopeful that there's something big coming down the line that is going to really help us out. But they could also have just missed the boat on where butchers balance currently lies.

Edited by malladin.ben
(Forgot point 4)

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55 minutes ago, malladin.ben said:

What the cards need to do is make those thematic choices less likely to be the sub-optimal ones. At the moment I don't think they do. +1vp is nothing unless you can leverage it twice in the game or on mascot, and these just seem to give your opponent easy ways to prevent that.

Totally agree. Hey Brisket, Fillet, Shank put that ball down and come and beat up on this mascot that strayed to close to his own goal with the ball quick!!

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I'll chip in my two cents.

I play primarily Masons and Brewers, the Kick-6. Having been on the opposite end of Butchers very often, its hard to explain the frustration of going against heal spam.

For midrange teams where the option to simply ignore/dodge/run away from scrumming isn't an option, the next line of defense is killing Butchers and sending them off. Its difficult to express how mindnumbing it is to plan your activations accordingly, commit a model and 3+ INF into putting up 8-10 damage, then having Ox, or Fillet, or Boar go, throw 3-4 attacks (potentially taking someone out), accrue 5+ momentum, and nullify your previous activation.

Butchers design space is supposed to be glass-cannon kill-team. The sheer volume of momentum they have from their damage is problematic if they can heal that much with it. Call it a nerf, call it a change of design. Butchers now have to use their momentum differently, and if they want to heal,. they have to go get it with Lifedrinker.

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5 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

(4) SFG have stayed that these cards are designed to balance guilds. Looking at the butchers cards in comparison it seems clear that they think butchers are the most powerful guild in the game, or at least will be by the time these come out officially. That makes me hopeful that there's something big coming down the line that is going to really help us out. But they could also have just missed the boat on where butchers balance currently lies.

I wouldn't get your hopes up, I don't want to to sound like a downer but I kinda feel like our GIC traits are in response to the community. In my meta there's at least three butcher players and the consensus at tournaments is always "please don't match me against butchers", or "great I'm getting to play against two butchers teams", we don't even have to win our games for our opponents to complain about us or get salty.  Our group is small granted but out of the 3 tournaments (we started with s2 and finally got a pundit for S3) butchers has won 1 of those the others being alchemist and engineers.

What I am getting at is I think we are the Negative Play Experience guild, we don't have to win tournaments like alchemist were but I don't think I've had a single game where my opponents didn't complain about butcher damage or the healing factor we had. I think Thundering has the same mindset some of my group members have for butchers.

But my experience is only with my group so maybe my group is just salty against butchers? Who knows. Maybe we just got the short end of the stick this time around as it seems some guilds like masons got ridiculously powerful traits while others got mediocre or bland traits.
 

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6 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

(4) SFG have stayed that these cards are designed to balance guilds. Looking at the butchers cards in comparison it seems clear that they think butchers are the most powerful guild in the game, or at least will be by the time these come out officially. That makes me hopeful that there's something big coming down the line that is going to really help us out. But they could also have just missed the boat on where butchers balance currently lies.

I would like to hope for this but SF has said they don't want auto include models and this would have to be an auto include. 

The problem I see with the Butchers game plan (and the reason why the Butchers seem to be under performing in competitive play) is its to easy to counter and the GIC's do nothing to change that.  The two ways I could see to change that are 1) give us a GIC that makes it harder to counter attack us (+1 defense vs counter attack, 1" dodge after counter attack, Counter attacks cost 2 MP) or 2) if they want to keep the glass cannon feel then then give us something that makes it easier to get back into the fight (+2/+2 move on the turn a model comes back onto the pitch)

note: my assessment of Butchers under performing in competitive play is based off of my own anecdotal evidence and the British National Championships where Butchers where the most highly represented and worst performing guilds)

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The way I see it, those cards can work if you think about changing the rules on healing a bit, for exemple, you can heal, 3 or 4 times each model but, each time you heal the cost is increased by one MP.

so healing 4 hp would cost 3 MP which is kind of okayish considering our line up where 1 inf can be converted into 1 mp. So a full inf load do damage and heal your model.

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53 minutes ago, Luthon1234 said:

I wouldn't get your hopes up, I don't want to to sound like a downer but I kinda feel like our GIC traits are in response to the community. In my meta there's at least three butcher players and the consensus at tournaments is always "please don't match me against butchers", or "great I'm getting to play against two butchers teams", we don't even have to win our games for our opponents to complain about us or get salty.  Our group is small granted but out of the 3 tournaments (we started with s2 and finally got a pundit for S3) butchers has won 1 of those the others being alchemist and engineers.

What I am getting at is I think we are the Negative Play Experience guild, we don't have to win tournaments like alchemist were but I don't think I've had a single game where my opponents didn't complain about butcher damage or the healing factor we had. I think Thundering has the same mindset some of my group members have for butchers.

But my experience is only with my group so maybe my group is just salty against butchers? Who knows. Maybe we just got the short end of the stick this time around as it seems some guilds like masons got ridiculously powerful traits while others got mediocre or bland traits.
 

That mindset is a real shame. I've talked before about using HP as an expendable resource to help you achieve you goals. I've seen Chris Hay playing Fish do this expertly well. He managed to win 12-0, but I think at least 5 of his players were taken down to 1hp at some point in the game. As soon as someone got close to being taken out he'd cycle them out if the line and give his opponent another target to chew on.

Personally I love playing against takeout teams and find it much more rewarding and there's much more back and forth in who's on top over the course of a game because there's just more ways of countering and negating you opponents options. I find goalscoring teams much less fun to play against as there's less tools in the game to help you counter it and interact with your opponent.

I personally find it ironic that a brewer's player finds butchers healing a problem, as whenever I play against brewer's I'm always having to spend momentum to clear KD rather than heal, and when a brewer's player heals up tapper or Hooper I'm probably going to have to deal 6 dmg back to make back the 4hp healed, But hey-ho.

32 minutes ago, SonofMars said:

I would like to hope for this but SF has said they don't want auto include models and this would have to be an auto include. 

The problem I see with the Butchers game plan (and the reason why the Butchers seem to be under performing in competitive play) is its to easy to counter and the GIC's do nothing to change that.  The two ways I could see to change that are 1) give us a GIC that makes it harder to counter attack us (+1 defense vs counter attack, 1" dodge after counter attack, Counter attacks cost 2 MP) or 2) if they want to keep the glass cannon feel then then give us something that makes it easier to get back into the fight (+2/+2 move on the turn a model comes back onto the pitch)

note: my assessment of Butchers under performing in competitive play is based off of my own anecdotal evidence and the British National Championships where Butchers where the most highly represented and worst performing guilds)

If there is something coming down the line it doesn't have to be a single model.

I agree with your ideas about counter attacking or extra movement - much more in theme.

I think the overall picture of butchers tournament performance shows them at about 50/50 win percentage. I suspect it may be that they are doing well on the lower or middle tables but not at the top, which might be why you're seeing some people finding them a NPE.

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6 minutes ago, malladin.ben said:

If there is something coming down the line it doesn't have to be a single model.

Very true, I did not even think about multiple things coming down the pipe for them for some reason.

17 minutes ago, malladin.ben said:

I think the overall picture of butchers tournament performance shows them at about 50/50 win percentage. I suspect it may be that they are doing well on the lower or middle tables but not at the top, which might be why you're seeing some people finding them a NPE.

This would also make a lot of sense to me, even being on the winning side if the butchers get rolling it can seem like an unstoppable train that is just eating your models and influence each turn.  However, if you know how to stop that it can be shut down fairly hard which is going to create this curve you talk about.

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36 minutes ago, malladin.ben said:

Personally I love playing against takeout teams and find it much more rewarding and there's much more back and forth in who's on top over the course of a game because there's just more ways of countering and negating you opponents options. I find goalscoring teams much less fun to play against as there's less tools in the game to help you counter it and interact with your opponent.

I personally find it ironic that a brewer's player finds butchers healing a problem, as whenever I play against brewer's I'm always having to spend momentum to clear KD rather than heal, and when a brewer's player heals up tapper or Hooper I'm probably going to have to deal 6 dmg back to make back the 4hp healed, But hey-ho.

I think the overall picture of butchers tournament performance shows them at about 50/50 win percentage. I suspect it may be that they are doing well on the lower or middle tables but not at the top, which might be why you're seeing some people finding them a NPE.

From a butchers perspective its really not fun playing against teams like alchemists engineers, FIsh, or masons. They have so many options for playing the ball game that we really can't answer all of them and masons feel like they were designed to beat us.

(i hope you didnt think i was a brewers player just noting what my group tells me)

Yea I totally agree with that last part, I know we do well against the average player and that might be why we get all the hate. Which is unfortunate because I feel like we're either middle of the pack or lower.

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3 hours ago, malladin.ben said:

I think the overall picture of butchers tournament performance shows them at about 50/50 win percentage. I suspect it may be that they are doing well on the lower or middle tables but not at the top, which might be why you're seeing some people finding them a NPE.

This is absolutely the case. If you filter out games with players in the top 25% and the bottom 25%, the Butchers' win rate goes up to almost 60%. They are currently not very powerful when played by or against a really good player, but they clean house at the middle tables.

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11 hours ago, thundering said:

I play primarily Masons and Brewers, the Kick-6. Having been on the opposite end of Butchers very often, its hard to explain the frustration of going against heal spam.

The two teams you play have so many ways to shut out Butchers relatively easy. You have great counters early KD's dodges and pushes in your play book. Not too mention a generally better balling game.

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So I've been thinking about traits in general and especially ours, do we want union models on our rosters now? Before the traits I was looking at decimate, gutter, and minx to replace harry but none of them are really that great. Decimate is good because shes like shank but 4 influence capacity plus she has second wind which might be good for our team plus she has anatomical. Gutter has a decent play book with a pull and scything blow, and minx is a low inf, cheap snare but low damage. The issue I am seeing is that our healing is too low for them and they cant proc any of our traits.

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49 minutes ago, Luthon1234 said:

So I've been thinking about traits in general and especially ours, do we want union models on our rosters now? Before the traits I was looking at decimate, gutter, and minx to replace harry but none of them are really that great. Decimate is good because shes like shank but 4 influence capacity plus she has second wind which might be good for our team plus she has anatomical. Gutter has a decent play book with a pull and scything blow, and minx is a low inf, cheap snare but low damage. The issue I am seeing is that our healing is too low for them and they cant proc any of our traits.

I've been playing Deci for second wind, and GIC won't change that decision. 

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2 hours ago, Luthon1234 said:

So I've been thinking about traits in general and especially ours, do we want union models on our rosters now? Before the traits I was looking at decimate, gutter, and minx to replace harry but none of them are really that great. Decimate is good because shes like shank but 4 influence capacity plus she has second wind which might be good for our team plus she has anatomical. Gutter has a decent play book with a pull and scything blow, and minx is a low inf, cheap snare but low damage. The issue I am seeing is that our healing is too low for them and they cant proc any of our traits.

The team I qualified for US nationals with uses Minx. As far as what team can best use GIC's, I'm not really sure. But Minx is a pretty good model.

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