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GIC General Theory Thread 

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So, just a thought on the "blood thirst" card:

What if you would make it non captain models and give it HR 3 (let's not shout 4 too early). This way you don't need to calculate in Fillet for the power level of a card, which is always a big factor...

I think Butchers are really at a disadvantage at a max HR 3, with only situational advantages, or a captain which is unstoppable (again) without a team (yes, they're taken out on the bench...)

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6 hours ago, Catharas said:

So, just a thought on the "blood thirst" card:

What if you would make it non captain models and give it HR 3 (let's not shout 4 too early). This way you don't need to calculate in Fillet for the power level of a card, which is always a big factor...

I think Butchers are really at a disadvantage at a max HR 3, with only situational advantages, or a captain which is unstoppable (again) without a team (yes, they're taken out on the bench...)

This very much matches my experience playing the card yesterday. Very strong on Fillet, but weak for the rest of the team. (3 heal)

Your suggestion is good possible fix. You could also go the other way and make it captain-only but deny the captain the ability to use the momentum spend triggered by other team members (can never remember the names of these). (3 heal)

A third option could be to make it not Life Drinker, but that if a model causes at least 1 dmg they heal 4hp at then end of their activation. 2 heal. (Or 2hp at the end of the activation and 3 heal globally).

 

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I like the GIC concept in principle except for the worrying idea of using them as a balancing tool. How about trying to make the guilds actually balanced (not easy I know) then these cards can be cool features on top. Using these cards to prop up what are perceived to be 'weaker' guilds just seems like a cop-out to avoid trying to make further balance adjustments, and also means you're admitting that playing without the cards will be more unbalanced as you won't have the corrective influence of the GIC's! 

I am not keen on the preponderance of cards granting extra VPs either, it messes with the mascot balance, I prefer cards that grant minor bonuses in keeping with the Guild's theme e.g. Tough As Nails.

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Our league played two games today :

Hunters vs Fishermen

Using Bait the Trap and Slippery Fishes 

Brewers vs Fishermen

Using Happy Hour and Slippery Fishes 

In the Hunters Fish match up the + DEF from Slippery Fishes wasn't a factor nor was the heal rate. Bait made definitely made a difference, but no bonus VPs were scored.

The poor heal rate on Bait was negligible due to their pillow fisted opponents, and the Hunters pulled out a win as the Fish clocked out. 

The Brewers Fish match up was definitely affected by the CIDs. Slippery Fishes took the sting out of some crucial attacks, but Happy Hour was key. 

The Fish made two 8" goals, easily hitting 5+ on four and five dice shots. Sadly, when the Brewers went to make a shot to get out of the 8-2 deficit Happy Hour stopped their own goal! 

As the game drew to a close, the Brewers caught up through take outs. At 10-8, Brewers, Salt attempted a tap in goal and missed due to Happy Hour! 

The heal rates didn't really come into play as the Fish couldn't make an impact damage wise, and the Fish couldn't spend scarce MP to heal.

Happy Hour did end up saving the day for the Brewers, but it was a painful double edge sword.  That missed goal could have easily spelled a quick defeat, and the +TN didn't stop the 4 dice goal shots. 

We had allot of fun trying these out, and I'm excited to try the other ones. 

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Apologies, 

The teams were: 

Hunters

Theron, Sheena, Fahad, Jaecar,  Hearne and Minx

Vs Fishermen 

Corsair, Tentacles, Angel, Sakana, Vet Siren, Avarice & Greede 

Brewers

Tapper, Hooper, Scum, Mash, Pint Pot, and Gutter

Vs Fishermen

Shark, Salt, Greyscales, Jac, Siren, and Hag

 

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So I posted some games over in the other thread but at the moment it feels like if you don't take a +1VP card (*lols Hunters*) you are playing at a severe disadvantage. Games can be closed out much faster with the +1VP benefit (and that Fish one is rather silly - allowing a 6 VP goal run!). I think ALL +X VPs should be removed. My view is GICs should enable something in your team (+1 TAC, +1 KICK, +2 " MOV etc) but NOT direct VPs. They should be enablers to change how your team plays NOT rewards for winning - otherwise you're just creating WIN MORE cards (i.e. a reward for someone already winning). And the +VP cards are basically better than other cards because of that win more effect.

 

 

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I don't think that +VP creates a "win more." Just makes it faster, which is great to me as this game was getting excessively slow with nerfs to the fast teams (I'd bet with more to come sooner or later unfortunately)

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Sure, I get they make it faster. I feel too fast. This game isn't exactly long but if you only play 3 turns and turn 1 is setup, that's not a lot of bang for your buck. I've played Fish into Alchemists and it finished in less than 15 minutes. That wasn't satisfying (even if quick). I like the give-take we had in S1. Now it's blam-blam-shooty-blam done. This is of course a personal view. I guess it depends what the masses want and what SFG want.

But I already felt S3 was fast. This is ludicrous speed - and we've never gone that fast. I don't know if the game can take it sir.

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I played Farmers vs Rage Union using most wanted (+1 vp when you spend 3MP during a take out) The match was pretty balanced with no goals being scored and both teams even in take outs, yet the Union won because they didn't need to get as many take outs as the Farmers, each one being worth 3 points. It felt like one side was given an easier time than the other. 

I agree, I don't want to see games going 4-5 hours, but at the  same time ganes that are over in 2 turns(or less)  are sorely lacking in fun. Even when I have scored quickly to win, I feel shortchanged, as if there's still supposed to be more guildball to play. A feeling of: "Is that all?"

I wonder what it would be like to have the game go x number of turns, with hiest score winning? I've yet to play a torunament, and we have done that in house rules and found it sufficient, but I'm not sure what others experiences would be like.

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12 minutes ago, Redtiger7 said:

I played Farmers vs Rage Union using most wanted (+1 vp when you spend 3MP during a take out) The match was pretty balanced with no goals being scored and both teams even in take outs, yet the Union won because they didn't need to get as many take outs as the Farmers, each one being worth 3 points. It felt like one side was given an easier time than the other. 

I think the idea of one side having an easier time than the other is intended to be tempered by the fact the Union heal for 2 to the Farmers' 4, and the Farmers also have a relatively easy to access flat +1 TAC. If the Union are managing to keep up in the brawl despite these two (relatively impactful) downsides, I think they probably should be getting more payoff for it? Like, if the Union get behind in the slightest they can't heal well, won't have the momentum to get bonus VPs even if they do manage some takeouts, and just get run over.

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31 minutes ago, Redtiger7 said:

I played Farmers vs Rage Union using most wanted (+1 vp when you spend 3MP during a take out) The match was pretty balanced with no goals being scored and both teams even in take outs, yet the Union won because they didn't need to get as many take outs as the Farmers, each one being worth 3 points. It felt like one side was given an easier time than the other. 

Which Farmer GIC did you use? one of them could have given you extra VP (without costing momentum) and you would be healing 3, and another could have given you a heal rate of 5 with an extra 3 hp when you use Ice sponge. the union would have been only healing 2 at a time, so you ought to have been hurting them faster.

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5 minutes ago, Adran said:

Which Farmer GIC did you use? one of them could have given you extra VP (without costing momentum) and you would be healing 3, and another could have given you a heal rate of 5 with an extra 3 hp when you use Ice sponge. the union would have been only healing 2 at a time, so you ought to have been hurting them faster.

Healthy Living. +1 TAC when 1" away from a harvest marker. 

There were so many knock downs (to prevent counter attack and lower def) that teams spent most of their momentum clearing it off. 

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2 hours ago, EpicChris said:

I've played Fish into Alchemists and it finished in less than 15 minutes.

To be fair, I've played games that fast in bare-bones S3 with these two teams. Also, I think of the extra VP cards, the ones that interact with goal scoring (Clockwork Precision, Deflection) are the least "offensive", so to speak. Neither disincentivizes Mascots quite as directly as the others, CP is hard enough to engineer, and Deflection doesn't actually make the Fish win any faster since the team that probably wants it over Slippery Fishes is a Shark team that has moderate difficulty getting another 2VP TO. The 6VP goal run requires setup and good dice luck and might result in lost resources and a "normal" VP result if the snapshot actually succeeds, you know.

A lot of these feel like they would have been appropriate buffs to melee-oriented teams prior to the errata, you know? Like when discussions were suggesting 15 VP games with 3VP TOs and 5VP goals to moderately speed up the melee teams.

For my part, I think the extra VP cards that actually speed up the team's existing strategy* are the least interesting GICs in the lot, you know?

*So, not Deflection. I seriously love this card; it lets the Fish team mitigate one of the problems with their strategy that isn't also supposed to be one of their weaknesses in a way that doesn't make them any faster, but does give them additional options to deal with poor dice luck

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9 hours ago, EpicChris said:

So I posted some games over in the other thread but at the moment it feels like if you don't take a +1VP card (*lols Hunters*) you are playing at a severe disadvantage. Games can be closed out much faster with the +1VP benefit (and that Fish one is rather silly - allowing a 6 VP goal run!). I think ALL +X VPs should be removed. My view is GICs should enable something in your team (+1 TAC, +1 KICK, +2 " MOV etc) but NOT direct VPs. They should be enablers to change how your team plays NOT rewards for winning - otherwise you're just creating WIN MORE cards (i.e. a reward for someone already winning). And the +VP cards are basically better than other cards because of that win more effect.

 

 

Well put, Chris! I also think it's a bit of a dull mechanic, and thematically bonus VPs feel more of a control team effect. The teams with these abilities currently are practically all control-type teams - morts, hunters and alchemists certainly, farmers and union possibly less so, but no one uses with aplomb anyway 😉. Any others I've forgotten?

If you look at the butchers ones, they're so easy for your opponent to deny you access to, anyway, and doesn't really do anything about the problems I've had when I've been losing games. I won with 4 takeouts in my test game and not one was within 8" of the ball or on the ball carrier. In the game I played with butchers prior to this I was only able to twice spend a full influence stack in combat without being coy yet attacked out, and one of those was vBrisket, so she wasn't doing a ton of damage and had to spend 2 INF on a dodge, so only managed sum total of 3dmg. Some anti-counter attack tech would be appreciated - that, or just a bit more damage to speed up scoring, or MOV on someone other than Fillet to be able to catch the models that just run away to the wings.

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Having read and played a game using the GIC content for guildball I am not opposed to what it is trying to achieve. It does, however, feel a little artificial. I like the idea of a coach preparing the team for the next game and working on specific tactics to overcome certain opponents and some of the abilities read like that and have a "natural" feel to them. Other abilities feel a little like they are an add on, I know certain abilities have allowed for bonus vp before now but a large number of cards rely on this as their dynamic. Why would this be the case?  Why should take outs when set conditions on the pitch yield a higher number of victory points? 

The main balancing that seems to be trying to be addressed is that between scoring and take outs. Surely a better way to address this would be give bonuses to players if they achieve this or to try and achieve it. I don't think it would be a difficult thing to do, maybe to balance right but would feel more in theme with the ideals of the game.  Without a great deal of time thinking about it easy examples can be given and I am sure the community could come up with endless more. It can still be team themed or tactics themed. 

Example 1 Butcher - Out for blood- the coach has ruled the team into a bloodlust before the game. Every time a butcher player takes someone down they get a free 2 inch dodge and attack. 

Example 2 Alchemists- Twin vials- with a bit of research the coach has design a vial that splits in midair. Once per turn when a 3 inch marker is placed a second one can be placed in contact with it for free. 

Example 3 Brewers- I feel no pain- the coach has decided the best way to win the game is by his players using the rum to dull the pain. The first a time a brewer player is effected by a condition in the game it can be ignored. 

 

I am am not stating these are balanced but simple ideas as alternatives to some of more direct artificial fixes that address vp directly. 

 

Just my two pence worth.. 

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Kinda liking that general idea. It does feel like more tactical coaching. Like today we're working on speed, so you get +2" movement. This game we need to get tough, do you try +1arm. Stuff like that.

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When the first round of cards were released i was so excited. The idea of this was very interesting to me. I kinda of already know what captain i play into other guilds. This was one more thing to kind of play with and set up, which i like.

To me it feels like some people sat around a table, drinking, and sparked this idea. That person sold everyone else on the idea and started rattling off ideas. they got about 12 ideas out that were solid and then realized they needed more to flesh out a set for all guilds and then through some stuff together. 

Some of these cards are obviously WAY more powerful than others, and i understand you have to look at the big picture not just the cards in a vacuum. but still. I feel that these cards will scare newer players off and you will see guilds be more popular based on their cards not their players. (we may start to see ALOT of brewers on the final tables now) I think these GICs are a slippery slope for power creep. This could be 1 more thing SF will need to errata every so often because it wasnt tested correctly or long enough.  

 

over all i think these cards need more work and more time on the testing table. Great idea, just not thought out enough. 

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Been thinking of ways on how the GIC cards could be changed. I know it's way into the process, but I'm just throwing the idea out there:

What if the cards, instead of being tied to the whole guild, was tied to specific captains?
Thematically it makes sense, taking the form of what kind of training and plays the captain brings.

It would probably be easier to balance as well, since the current form need to balance the cards between 2-3 captains in each guild.

There would be more cards to test out, but since they were to center on a specific captain's playstyle, it should be easier to collect the data.

It also gives more choices for when picking captain and selecting your team.

They could even be split up into 2-3 categories, like; Offense, Defense, "Secret plays".

What do you think?

 

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2 minutes ago, Balefirestorm said:

What if the cards, instead of being tied to the whole guild, was tied to specific captains?
Thematically it makes sense, taking the form of what kind of training and plays the captain brings.

It would probably be easier to balance as well, since the current form need to balance the cards between 2-3 captains in each guild.

...

What do you think?

 

I like your idea and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

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10 minutes ago, Balefirestorm said:

Been thinking of ways on how the GIC cards could be changed. I know it's way into the process, but I'm just throwing the idea out there:

What if the cards, instead of being tied to the whole guild, was tied to specific captains?
Thematically it makes sense, taking the form of what kind of training and plays the captain brings.

It would probably be easier to balance as well, since the current form need to balance the cards between 2-3 captains in each guild.

There would be more cards to test out, but since they were to center on a specific captain's playstyle, it should be easier to collect the data.

It also gives more choices for when picking captain and selecting your team.

They could even be split up into 2-3 categories, like; Offense, Defense, "Secret plays".

What do you think?

 

I like it. You might be able to have some overlap cards, but for butchers (sorry to bang on about them again, but they're all I really know much about) I suspect all of the cards we've seen are better with Fillet than Ox - she's going to get more healing out of Blood Thirst, and give she's def 5, 14hp that healing is worth more; she's happy being 8" from the enemy goal, whereas Ox is better if you can force the scrum in your own half, and she's got the mobility to track down the ball carrier.

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So you want to make cards that are expressly designed to make already boarder line over powered players compared to the rest of their guild and the game in general better at what they are best at?

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Just now, malladin.ben said:

I like it. You might be able to have some overlap cards, but for butchers (sorry to bang on about them again, but they're all I really know much about) I suspect all of the cards we've seen are better with Fillet than Ox - she's going to get more healing out of Blood Thirst, and give she's def 5, 14hp that healing is worth more; she's happy being 8" from the enemy goal, whereas Ox is better if you can force the scrum in your own half, and she's got the mobility to track down the ball carrier.

Also had Butchers in mind, since they are the ones I'm going to play during the playtest. It also makes sense looking at Alchs for example, where the cards seems more aligned towards Smoke and a bit "forced" on Midas.


There could also be a few cards with general Guild strategies that could be common for all captains; "Ah, lets go with the Minced meat crush hammer play today lads, just like the old Master Butcher used to do it".

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13 minutes ago, Banjulhu said:

So you want to make cards that are expressly designed to make already boarder line over powered players compared to the rest of their guild and the game in general better at what they are best at?

Not the captains themselves, but the team they play with. Take the Butchers GIC. Like malladin.ben says above, "Take it to em" is a card that benefits Fillets teams playstyle more than Ox. The card would then be available for when she is a captain.
Ox would instead have other cards that goes into his playstyle for the team. And the cards themselves does not have to actually benefit the captain model itself either.

I put and idea for a card in the Butchers GIC:

Blood rage: Once per turn a friendly non-Captain guild model may make a charge action for 1 Influence. Heal rate 2.

This does not benefit the Captain, but does benefit one model in the team. It could tied to a team led by either Fillet or Ox.

This is also a way of being able to balance a captain, without necessarily needing to change the stat card of the captain.
 

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