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GIC General Theory Thread 

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I much prefer the identities that hand out passive buff/benefits to multiple models rather than the once per turn gain/do X as they feel like they will always be there to have an impact and change things up, although I suspect there will be advocates for the once per turn powers.

The fish in particular feel a little gimped in that all their identities are "Once per turn when X" which means there is the distinct possibility that their identity may never actually be triggered (Slippery Fishes should always have a chance to be triggered but you will often have to A predict the rest of the turn and B actually need two more inches added to a dodge)

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I wish slippery fishes didn't say "guild" this would be a much bigger boon to the shark ring out game if so. I mean it's not bad though. I'll miss the shenanigans of deflection. Pay to win is curious.

I'm much more pleased with the Butcher and union cards.

Edit: also rip my interest in Windle. The new Farmers card I'll have to think about if I like it or not. Depends on if it will let me cut out a planter.

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The more I look at Slippery Fishes, the less good it seems to be. The low HR isn't an issue, but as it's only one per turn, it has limited usefulness.

For Hunters, Winter's Blessing is fun. Being able to leap that extra 2" from a forest an catch players my surprise is a fun ability to have.

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I am disappointed that Deflection is gone - as far as the +VP cards go, it was the only one that didn't actually advance the game plan, and it made planning for a single take-out worthwhile in Shark. Pay to Win is alright, though in Shark games I often find I'm running tight on MP during a goal run anyways so I'm not sure it'll actually help a lot, and missing that reroll is gonna be mondo feel-bad after sinking 2+ momentum into the goal run.

They used my suggested wording for Near Death Experience! Seriously SFG, give me a call - I'd love to be a rules editor! :P

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This is not really about the GIC's themselves, but I wanted to acknowledge how incredibly well I think SFG has handled this open play testing.  They have addressed almost every issue I saw people complain about (and as a Butchers player I am so incredibly stoked about our new set) while obviously working hard to maintain balance.  I think Blood Thirst is a great example.  The community says 2 heal rate is not good enough it needs to be fixed and even though they clearly think its going to be overly powerful ("We decided to allow Butcher coaches to experiment with Blood Thirst at a heal rate of 3 and decide for themselves whether it's too powerful or not") they gave the community a chance to test that our for themselves.  Having played miniatures games where the goal was clearly to sell models as opposed to making a good game *cough... 40K ...cough* I can truly say I find this incredibly impressive.  So kudos SFG I for one really appreciate the work you put into game design.

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6 minutes ago, SonofMars said:

This is not really about the GIC's themselves, but I wanted to acknowledge how incredibly well I think SFG has handled this open play testing.  They have addressed almost every issue I saw people complain about (and as a Butchers player I am so incredibly stoked about our new set) while obviously working hard to maintain balance.  I think Blood Thirst is a great example.  The community says 2 heal rate is not good enough it needs to be fixed and even though they clearly think its going to be overly powerful ("We decided to allow Butcher coaches to experiment with Blood Thirst at a heal rate of 3 and decide for themselves whether it's too powerful or not") they gave the community a chance to test that our for themselves.  Having played miniatures games where the goal was clearly to sell models as opposed to making a good game *cough... 40K ...cough* I can truly say I find this incredibly impressive.  So kudos SFG I for one really appreciate the work you put into game design.

Haha, you beat me to it by a few minutes.  So I'll just say that I'm equally impressed by the attention to the playtests and community that SFG has demonstrated.  I wouldn't say all of the cards are "balanced" yet, but this is one small step for SFG, but one giant step for the balance of the game! :)

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GUT REACTION TIME!!!!

Overall – There are not really any “terrible” ones per say anymore and a few of the bonkers ones are just “really good” now. Things have evened out a bit. I do think there are a few of these SF has not considered very carefully, but overall I vote this batch a successful improvement.

Alchemists –

Acid coating could create legitimate kill lists. Anatomical is a vastly underrated ability in this game. It’s probably worth heal rate 2 against armored teams, against unarmored teams you just don’t take it. Chem Resist is still a good default choice for Midas and World Burn can get out of hand quick for smoke.

 

Blacksmiths –

All of these options are pretty reasonable. Now that we’ve seen Hearth I think passing the mantle might be the default pick, but I can see tough as nails against some teams. Strike here doesn’t strike me as solid as the others, but certainly could be good in dream activations with Sledge and Iron.

 

Brewers –

Still pretty big winners in this. Bring it on is arguably better. Heal 5 is great in Brewers as they love to heal. Hang Back, while good, seems like the one you don’t take. I still think another round is basically an auto pick in almost every matchup. Free Heroic is just superb in guild.

 

Butchers –

“Butcher players, we heard  your feedback regarding your GICs being bad. So we gave you some possibly game breaking ones instead!” – Steamforged. Take it to Em is super strong and presumably stacks with wingback/Support from the wing for a free charge. Blood Thirst still strikes me as the runt of the litter.

Minor Rant: Crushing Force… Might be the only legitimately upsetting one of these we’ve seen. I’d like to personally welcome Season 2 fillet back to the mix since counter attacks no longer matter. For all the positive press of “permanent home crowd” and how stupid Fillet was with her blood rain dodge… you’d think someone would learn here lesson here. It’s not even the “first counter attack” its Every. Single. One. This one really misses the mark of “don’t shore up weaknesses”. Even if it isn’t all that good (it is), it is horribly un-interactive.

 

Engineers –

I’ve come around on rebuild them given a lot of engineer models take multiple activations to kill. Seems you’ll get a few off. If you are running a team without a lot of character plays this could be pretty reasonable. Tracer rounds are obviously still sweet. I really don’t get clockwork. Do you really take all that many snapshots as engineers? Just seems weird to me.

 

Farmers –

The honest lads have a suite of nice options for a variety of matchups. Killy team? Eat Hearty is still awesome. Spirit of Coop also gives a pretty nice edge. Unsure? Crack of Dawn and start the game up 2 inf or don’t feel quite so forced to take as many planters. I think the farmer ones are on the strong side, but are about the level of balance/interesting/flavor I’d like to see every guild receive.

 

Fishermen –

Welp, never need to bonus time a shot ever again with pay to win. Just bonus time after you’ve seen if you’ve missed. This one *maybe* brings shark back into the fold because it is an insurance policy. 3 goal teams, at multi-round events, suffer from consistency issues and this helps out with that. I don’t think you even really care about the heal 3 because you aren’t planning on healing much on a goal list anyway. You either die before you have the chance, or want to die so you can set up another bombing run.

Slippery fishes is *insane* utility. It is so much more than adding to a playbook result. You don’t use this on goal runs or even tidal surges. You save this for single dodge counter attacks and RUIN DAYS. I think this might actually be far too strong, which makes me sad as a fish player. I'd say this wasn't really thought through well enough. It’s also hilarious if Shark can tidal surge an enemy 6” in the mirror match (paging @MilitaryCoo). Ground work is a solid middle of the road choice, if somewhat uninteresting.

 

Hunters –

Bait the trap is still real cool. The VP from the original didn’t matter anyway. It is nice there is at least a range restriction now too, but it is still really good. Go to Ground is always nice and a good choice for a lot of matchups. I had to be talked into Winter Training being good, but it is. Stacking with Light Foot/gliding, and a forest being rough ground, means Theron is spitting out fast ground wherever he wants. beware bears/bald guys poking around near trees - objects are closer than they appear.

 

Masons –

Rapid response was probably the best card in the previous set. Probably good it got toned down a little. It’s still a decent choice though. Built to last is still good, although I still think it is probably overrated. I just don’t see it coming up or mattering all that often. Greater Good is weird and hard to evaluate. It seems to me like there should be something broken you can do with this and superior strategy, but I haven’t thought of it yet. Seems like you could set up some funky double flint goals pretty reliably.

 

Morticians –

Misery. I think morticians are feeling it with the new batch. I think obby and crew are the big losers here. Inheritance tax is obviously more useful now, but still isn’t great. Near death Experience is useful, but only situationally. Misery is a plus, but it’s easily the weakest of all of the 4s. I think all three of these could go up a heal rate and be just fine.

 

Union –

Someone at steamforged is spying on the GBZ discord because I am pretty sure we said all of these at some point.

There will be a game where gutter activates and hits 8 scything blows and it will be the most hilarious activation this game has ever seen. That said, I don’t know if this card is particularly good, but it is super interesting to think about. Pirate’s ransom is a pretty good hedge card (and hey you can CA fillet…). Glad to see Brisket gets a useful card in Raise the Stakes, but Blackheart probably still does it better.

 

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38 minutes ago, tehlon said:

It’s also hilarious if Shark can tidal surge an enemy 6” in the mirror match (paging @MilitaryCoo).

If you asked this is in the rules forum, I'd probably  say no in line with other similar rulings -- the extra dodge is a new action and Tidal Surge/Puppet Master only allow one action.

We're not in the rules forum, though, so do whatever you like ;)

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1 minute ago, MilitaryCoo said:

If you asked this is in the rules forum, I'd probably  say no in line with other similar rulings -- the extra dodge is a new action and Tidal Surge/Puppet Master only allow one action.

We're not in the rules forum, though, so do whatever you like ;)

I see. Its another brand new 2" dodge. Not +2" to the current dodge. Makes sense. I did go ahead and post a similar question though.

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If Crushing Force read "the first time your opponent declares a counter attack each turn it costs 2 MP" it would still be worth 2HL IMO, and aside from Union getting the bonus MP for going second still says "if you go first enjoy going to town". AND your opponent still has to pay 2 MP eventually.

Its pretty hard to see how this isn't too good

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I am very dissappointed that the Blacksmiths received no changes other than Strike Right Here becoming extra momentum (which I support - didn't like the extra VP GICs)

Just recently started testing the GICs with Blacksmiths and watched my typical 60-70% win rate plummet to 0-6 in games using these cards. I'll do more playtesting and provide feedback, but every game I've played with a GIC my opponents options had much more impact than the Blackmiths choices.   

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6 hours ago, Alphadork said:

I am very dissappointed that the Blacksmiths received no changes other than Strike Right Here becoming extra momentum (which I support - didn't like the extra VP GICs)

Just recently started testing the GICs with Blacksmiths and watched my typical 60-70% win rate plummet to 0-6 in games using these cards. I'll do more playtesting and provide feedback, but every game I've played with a GIC my opponents options had much more impact than the Blackmiths choices.   

Which Guilds in particular? 

I suspect your initial win rate with them was partially down to your opponents not know how to deal with the team, and they may have now started to adapt. Difficult to see how any of these cards could completely stop you winning games unless you have identified how the other cards lost you the 6 games?

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Much happier with the new versions of these cards. Glad to see the +1 VP nonsense gone. These GIC actually feel fairly balanced and for the 6 teams I play I would happily use any of them. Glad that SF games actually had the grit to say hey maybe we got these a little wrong lets try again.

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3 hours ago, FearLord said:

Which Guilds in particular? 

I suspect your initial win rate with them was partially down to your opponents not know how to deal with the team, and they may have now started to adapt. Difficult to see how any of these cards could completely stop you winning games unless you have identified how the other cards lost you the 6 games?

I'll start to contribute more to the other feedback threads but below are a couple of examples

Brewers - Tapper team with old "Happy Hour"; the +1 TN really slowed down my scoring game. The +1 ARM once per turn from "Tough as Nails" isn't going to save the Blacksmiths from the Tapper, oSpigot, Hooper beatdown party. Tapper Brewers and the Blacksmiths both want to play from the center of the pitch so avoiding that mess isn't easy. The new "Bring It On" might be worse. I was KDing Tapper last activation to force a tough decision on my opponent if they won initiative - now they'd just activate first, clear KD and start the beat down party back up.

Engineers - Tracer Rounds just amplifies the weakness of the Blacksmiths low HP Apprentices - two turns of Tooled Up Blasted Earths while Velocity holds the ball (Ferrite will struggle to make that tackle) with little or no chance for the Blacksmiths to generate any kind of momentum to heal,or glide thru all the rough ground that's being dropped - kicking off with Cinder can usually get you one momentum from a Hot Shot attack - but that is not enough. The extra MP from the new Strike Right here won't come into play because you won't be able to force melee with the Engineers until well into Turn 2. 

Alchemist - Smoke with Watch the World Burn - see my notes on low HP Apprentices above - none of the Blacksmith GICs wil help against that.

I undertsand that part of the Blacksmiths design philosophy is fragile Apprentices - I was better able to keep them safe before my opponents gained access to their GICs. I also understand that the GICs aren't supposed to cover a Guilds weaknesses but then I see the Butchers receive "Crushing Force" in the new round of updates and get a little salty about the Blacksmiths current choices.  

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39 minutes ago, Alphadork said:

I undertsand that part of the Blacksmiths design philosophy is fragile Apprentices - I was better able to keep them safe before my opponents gained access to their GICs. I also understand that the GICs aren't supposed to cover a Guilds weaknesses but then I see the Butchers receive "Crushing Force" in the new round of updates and get a little salty about the Blacksmiths current choices.  

As the whole GIC exercise is about rebalancing plenty of players over on the butchers thread are predicting a lot of people being miffed about this card. But look at it this way, rather than thinking it covers their weakness, view it as rebalancing the guild in a way that thematically fits in with how the guild is designed to be played. That is aggressively and in the opponents face, it enables the butchers to butcher more effectively.

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39 minutes ago, masterkdog said:

As the whole GIC exercise is about rebalancing plenty of players over on the butchers thread are predicting a lot of people being miffed about this card. But look at it this way, rather than thinking it covers their weakness, view it as rebalancing the guild in a way that thematically fits in with how the guild is designed to be played. That is aggressively and in the opponents face, it enables the butchers to butcher more effectively.

All good, but when the Butchers win initiative (which isn't that difficult give their volume of MP they generate via damaging results) Fillet and Ox can now delete any Apprentice in range (save Cinder due to UM) with zero response from a Blacksmiths player - they even have a shot at one rounding Ferrite or Furnace too.

I'm not suggesting that the Butchers don't deserve that upgrade, I just don't see anything in the current set of Blacksmiths GICs that will allow them to "Blacksmith more effectively"

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