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CrazyBlaine

Theresher. Fix before he hits please.

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I don't think there is any way to know if Thresher needs a nerf until he is generally released and played at a couple major tournaments.  That being said I do think its interesting that there a three plays that allow you to do 3 damage over a wide area with out having to roll dice, Chemical Shower, Exsanguinate, and Don't Fear The...  Of those plays Don't Fear the... is the only one that is character play rather than a legendary.  Given, being a character play means its impacted by tough hide, but it also means its impacted by tooled up.

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I also slightly apologize for misunderstanding your intent towards the trend. I for one am surprised this thread was posted before Threshers release/more playtesting within the community, but equally frustrated with how one sided the responses were towards the OP. I think there is some merit to his claims, but most were answered with a simple "git gud".

58 minutes ago, Ik-tornado said:

It is to score in the 9th activation instead of the 11th so that you can delete the harvest markers in the 11th and force Thresher to play like every other team out there. Every teams striker is able to score at this point very consistently.

This feels like a very guild specific/state of board action. And although getting too in depth would probably tire us both out and would be better answered through playtesting instead of internet banter, I just want to say it feels like, in my opinion of course, that Thresher can still have his cake and eat it too by letting his other 5 deal with the striker while he kills his 1-2 models of choice.

 

58 minutes ago, Ik-tornado said:

Could Thresher be nerfed to slow the pace for people who don't have their turn 1-2 down? Probably. But steamforged has shown us that when something fast gets nerfed it gets nerfed hard, see Fillet and the recent changes. (but leave in depth arguing power elsewhere because this post is already absurdly unwieldy) I don't have confidence in their ability to have a gentle touch and I've been excited to play a super solo captains that's quick again, so I don't want it to happen.

I don't want him nerfed too much actually if at all pending more playtesting. My main concerns are with Millstone and Tater which nullify a majority of the ways to attempt to stop his rampage. They put specific teams in a spot where they can't interact with Thresher at all, and even destroying the harvest markers doesn't stop his overwhelming advantage over them. He'll still kill 1-2 models which is more than enough to stop an effective reprisal.

 

To reiterate, in my opinion some teams I feel cannot stop a Thresher in their midst and even getting a goal doesn't keep them in contest with how quickly he can kill 6 models. Less about what everyone can do to stop him and more about Farmers limiting what is now competitive moving forward. Similar to season one where the only teams you saw were Morts and Butchers. More teams have options now, especially after the shark and alch nerfs, but Farmers in my opinion will push the envelope in a different direction to invalidate some teams.

 

I just want a balanced game where all the teams can co-oexist peacefully at both the casual and competetive level. Can't a man dream?

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After a few games against Thresher, I have a feeling that he'll be a problem captain once he's released (in the veins of former Midas/Shark, not former Obulus/Fillet).  Even if he isn't in the grand scheme of the meta, there's the issue that he's probably going to be the main pick for Farmers over Grange, which is something SFG wanted to prevent and one of the reasons why they did their Season 3.5 changes.  That alone should mean a tweak to Thresher, Grange, or both.

Plus I know @Dracilic LOOOVES Thresher. ;)

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A fair point that 'git gud' isn't really a good answer to some concerns, so apologies as my post probably came across like that.

As a personal playstyle I have always enjoyed trying to beat the flavour of the month or 'OP' deck/team/combo in games. Most things have a weakness it just isn't always that obvious, and requires you to play both as it and against it. One of the things I learnt is always to look at what you yourself could have done differently in a loss before being quick to blame the loss on the other player being luckier/better models... than you.

We have a tendency to underestimate how good our favourite team is and overestimate how strong others are - I think it was Blizzard that said they are in a good balance spot when everyone is calling for all heroes to be nerfed/buffed about equally. So my response to posts like this will always be 'lets just wait and see'

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6 minutes ago, kaladorm said:

A fair point that 'git gud' isn't really a good answer to some concerns, so apologies as my post probably came across like that.

As a personal playstyle I have always enjoyed trying to beat the flavour of the month or 'OP' deck/team/combo in games. Most things have a weakness it just isn't always that obvious, and requires you to play both as it and against it. One of the things I learnt is always to look at what you yourself could have done differently in a loss before being quick to blame the loss on the other player being luckier/better models... than you.

We have a tendency to underestimate how good our favourite team is and overestimate how strong others are - I think it was Blizzard that said they are in a good balance spot when everyone is calling for all heroes to be nerfed/buffed about equally. So my response to posts like this will always be 'lets just wait and see'

I generally agree with you sir, and always prided myself in beating the Season 2 Fillet/Obulus or Season 3 Midas/Shark teams.  I firmly believe that Guild Ball is one of the most balanced games I've played, and even the biggest differences in S3 (pre-nerf) teams like Alchemists and Hunters can be overcome with skill. 

Granted, when one gets to the final rounds and top tables of tournaments, and when skill levels are more similar, that's when these differences in team/captain powers come into play.  Many people denied that S2 Obulus/Fillet were problems (even SFG denied it to some extent), or that Hunters were too weak, and in the end, our general instincts were right and those teams/models were fixed and brought into balance again. 

We definitely can "just wait and see", though just from experience playing against some of the slightly overpowered models in the past, I can see characteristics of Thresher that make me uneasy and uncomfortable.  Is he unbeatable?  definitely not.  Will he be used by the most competitive of players at the big tournaments (like Midas Alchemists and Shark Fish were in S3)?  My guess is yes, in his current form. :)

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A couple of points from me for what it's worth. I can't speak to the power level of Thresher yet as I've not seen enough of him to comment. I think wait and see has to be the response for now, although if anyone has some advice on how to beat/handle him that they can give in a non-passive/aggressive manner that might be appreciated.

That all said, I do have an issue with the 3" melee zone as part of a common philosophy I have on game design. When Shark/Midas/Vitriol were tearing everything up I commented that the reason they were NPE to play against was that they allowed for limited interactivity between players. I fear that Thresher with his 3" melee zone will be the same.

I wonder if there might be a general fix to this by denying momentum if you're hitting someone outside their melee zone or allowing counter attacks outside your usual melee range but at some sort of TAC penalty or DEF buff to the defender, but that's something for another season and another thread. 

Cheerio,

Ben

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As far as I'm aware Locus with his gravity well is the only player able to counter the 3" melee outside of his activation. Not that this helps out anyone who doesn't play Engineers. For the other guilds I have no answer, sorry.

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2 hours ago, kryzak said:

After a few games against Thresher, I have a feeling that he'll be a problem captain once he's released (in the veins of former Midas/Shark, not former Obulus/Fillet).  Even if he isn't in the grand scheme of the meta, there's the issue that he's probably going to be the main pick for Farmers over Grange, which is something SFG wanted to prevent and one of the reasons why they did their Season 3.5 changes.  That alone should mean a tweak to Thresher, Grange, or both.

Plus I know @Dracilic LOOOVES Thresher. ;)

I'm just going with the flow and letting it run it's course. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he (or other models on the team) saw changes in the future.

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1 hour ago, Selfy said:

As far as I'm aware Locus with his gravity well is the only player able to counter the 3" melee outside of his activation. Not that this helps out anyone who doesn't play Engineers. For the other guilds I have no answer, sorry.

Clone, Braced, Decoy, Tough Skin, Swift Stance, being in cover and Counter Charge are all better counters to Thresher than Locus is. Locus doesn't have Sturdy, so he pulls Thresher into B2B, then gets KDed anyway and he's in exactly the same scenario - the only thing he does is force Thresher further away from his harvest markers, which is admittedly not nothing.

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19 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

Clone, Braced, Decoy, Tough Skin, Swift Stance, being in cover and Counter Charge are all better counters to Thresher than Locus is. Locus doesn't have Sturdy, so he pulls Thresher into B2B, then gets KDed anyway and he's in exactly the same scenario - the only thing he does is force Thresher further away from his harvest markers, which is admittedly not nothing.

Also away from other targets - Thresher's perfect spot isn't necessarily 3" away from someone, it's engaging multiple people who aren't engaging him.

I think people need to play it out a bit first before calling for knee jerk nerfs. I've no doubt we'll see more models errated in the future, and it's certainly possible some of these new models will be looked at, but at this point I would encourage people to work on counter play to it. It definitely exists.

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Thresher is a 20hp bloke with a 3+/0 without tough hide, unpredictable or any other defensive sheaningas.

Try killing him, its not hard, he is a glass cannon and a excellent momentum farm.

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Just now, Larhendiel said:

Thresher is a 20hp bloke with a 3+/0 without tough hide, unpredictable or any other defensive sheaningas.

Try killing him, its not hard, he is a glass cannon and a excellent momentum farm.

He's 4+/0, but that's still pretty terrible. The only other captain with defensive stats that bad and no defensive tech is Ox, who comes with higher payoff at the expense of shorter threat range, and even Ox has a better counterattack than Thresher does.

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I don't think one person has said that killing him is the issue? I assume people who are saying he is easy to kill and think that makes him okay haven't played against him, or seen him played in capable hands.

His 1/2 activaiton is second to none, killing 2-3 players with the right set up (which admittedly is just a crop dusting from Jackstraw). That's only compounded by the fact he has 3" reach, so you're not even going to be able to react to it. Which is compunded further by the fact he is kick 3/8, and every other rule on his card (which are all good)

He is 100% not hard to kill, but 1 con does not make his very, very long list of pros balance out. Not even close.

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30 minutes ago, Larhendiel said:

Thresher is a 20hp bloke with a 3+/0 without tough hide, unpredictable or any other defensive sheaningas.

Try killing him, its not hard, he is a glass cannon and a excellent momentum farm.

3

4+/0 but that is not really the core problem. Dead players don't kill other players. And you have to play around Tater and Millstone too.

Kill it looks a pretty good, straightforward advice but it is a much more complicated endeavor in real life.

PS: I played 10+ games with Farmers and the power level of Thresher and Co. looks really frightening to me. Especially after the errata train that hit Alchs and Fish.

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18 hours ago, JS said:

I saw Thresher at a grocery store in Los Angeles yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything.He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?”I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Milky Ways in his hands without paying.The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter.When she took one of the bars and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bar and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.

This covert Jake Paul reference is the sneakiest thing I have seen in a while.

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2 hours ago, Isante said:

Grange > Thresher

Short, but still something to hop on. I prefer Grange aswell, simply because he's not as strong as Thresher.

Some already said it pretty well, as "Just kill him" is basically the same advice as "git gud". It doesn't help, and there is more to it than just snipping the model of the table with your fingertips. 

5 hours ago, Csonti said:

Dead players don't kill other players

This is basically the issue. First I am not supposed to walk up the pitch farther than 2", then he makes a Give 'n Go and all is suddenly lost.

It is already strong to have Mallet have that 3", but on a Captain is way too strong. There is no other way to say it.

Then 2 or 3 models die, you cannot retaliate from it, there is literally no interaction between him and other players.

The whole issue mostly resolves around that 3" melee, especially with his kit. Being killable as model is not a con that balances him out, but rather it's the norm that shouldn't be factored in too much. So he basically has an ignorable con and the rest is pros. Which basically means he is badly designed, period. 

Sad, but yeah. A lot of people realize his ott strength, but I have a reason to believe this won't change too soon. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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19 hours ago, Selfy said:

Not sure what that's all about. Quite good though.😀

Its about trying to respond to yet another one of these sky is falling posts that make me personally want to vomit.

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15 minutes ago, HammerTime said:

Its about trying to respond to yet another one of these sky is falling posts that make me personally want to vomit.

Oh sorry, I guess I didn't catch on on the falling sky. Where did it land?

In all honesty, discussion was civil and people were just trying to get their points across understandable. This is literally about a single model that people think is too strong, but I guess you are right, human interaction and dicussions are vomit inducing. 

Aside from having apparently a lot of people that think the same way about Thresher, now that you came in to safe the day with condescending one liners, we might as well close this discussion off as "problem never existed" and go on with our merry lives, because trying to improve something we think is not good makes people vomit. :) 

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I'm sure there was much vomit involved for all the other "sky is falling" posts about Midas, Vitriol, Shark, A&G, Harry, S2 Obulus, and S2 Fillet. ;) 

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25 minutes ago, Cole said:

Oh sorry, I guess I didn't catch on on the falling sky. Where did it land?

In all honesty, discussion was civil and people were just trying to get their points across understandable. This is literally about a single model that people think is too strong, but I guess you are right, human interaction and dicussions are vomit inducing. 

Aside from having apparently a lot of people that think the same way about Thresher, now that you came in to safe the day with condescending one liners, we might as well close this discussion off as "problem never existed" and go on with our merry lives, because trying to improve something we think is not good makes people vomit. :) 

No its just people like this complaining all the time makes the community look bad as a whole.  Look at my avatar and you see how little I think of the forums in general.   Can we at least wait until the figures actually hit the tournament before pulling out the proverbial crying towel?

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5 minutes ago, kryzak said:

I'm sure there was much vomit involved for all the other "sky is falling" posts about Midas, Vitriol, Shark, A&G, Harry, S2 Obulus, and S2 Fillet. ;) 

Or maybe a blood lust/revenge crave,
"lets try to feel better if someone elses gets nerfed too"

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3 minutes ago, HammerTime said:

No its just people like this complaining all the time makes the community look bad as a whole.  Look at my avatar and you see how little I think of the forums in general.   Can we at least wait until the figures actually hit the tournament before pulling out the proverbial crying towel?

I looked into your account and you seem to think very little of people's opinions in general when they don't match yours. :) And THIS is actually what makes the community looks bad.

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OK, so I've had to edit a couple of posts and issue a couple of warnings for bad language here, and I can see the conversation veering into the territory of personal attacks.

This is a friendly nudge to steer away from that.

 

Let's be nice and stick to hyperbole about model stats, shall we? :)

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