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      Training Ground   02/14/2018

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Well that kinda hurt - July 2017 errata

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Hmm...

That kinda sucked. I mean it could have been way worse but that was not very much fun. 8" down to 6" caught in a net seems pretty reasonable, it was fairly insane before but the loss of gut and string on top of it is rough. Stagger is too high on the play book. If you're going to take away the most potent part of the play it probably shouldn't be as difficult to attain. I don't think it changes much for him other than having to be much more careful. Shutting a model (or two if they clustered) down for a turn felt like the real benefit of his legendary.

oSiren. Oucher. I mean you can still drop the ball I guess. That was a big shot to the shorts without really anything to offset it.

vSiren. The damage I could care less about but she was one of the few models that could really help out our influence race against butchers. That longer play book is irritating. Couldn't even throw us a bone and put a tackle on 2 somewhere? Rough

A&G hurts the Goal game but only if you were running them. Also worth note that Greede lost all momentous damage (which suuuuuuucks) and also lost rabid animal, disallowing us to sub that in on a legendary turn for gut and string.

I think Fish are still is a good spot all things considered but it really felt like we lost stuff and didn't gain... well anything at all. Vet siren is leaving me feeling pretty salty. I'd have rather lost the -1 def on shark than the -4/-4MOV with gut and string. That really hurts. oSiren I'll need to play with but I don't think this change is too crippling, I have been messing around with activating her late and having the pass go to another player anyway so this fits a little more in line with the way I play anyway but I know others will be upset.

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I'm not at all upset by these changes frankly.

Shark - CiaN probably needed to be 6". 8 was egregious. G&S to Stagger is a little annoying - I think a play that drops Snared might have been reasonable, given that it's MOM-removable. I actually didn't use G&S for the MOV penalty all that often, though. Probably down to my skill level, but personally it's not the end of the world.

OSiren - I never used her as a Kicker, kinda disappointed I didn't now that I see it. That said you can still Charge-Seduce-Kick pretty reliably if you pick the right target.

VSiren - She's not for ballplay, honestly. She can still DG just fine, and if she needs to she can pile on damage too. It's just slightly harder to wrap and won't get a bunch of MOM, which always felt weird for a Fish to begin with.

A&G - I might run them in Corsair now, looks like it could work nicely. In Shark though I've been considering Snakeskin as a ball-protector against other ball teams. A&G's change might finally give me an opportunity to try it out.

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Net. Whatever. Happens once a game and I will still grab the people who need to be grabbed. Gut and String is a MFing travesty. I posted Ad Nauseam already in the discussions forum about this.

OSiren. Not super concerned with. I can't remember the last time I gave her 4 inf. She's a late turns game ender/ball retriever more than a kicker imo. Other models in faction can kick off perfectly fine.

Vsiren. A little miffed she didn't keep at least one of her momentous damage results. That was really the reason she was so great. Corsair sets um up, gets um about half way dead at the end of a turn. Siren comes in and finishes um off setting up dread gaze. I don't mind the playbook length increase other than that because lets be honest... it was a bit ridiculous at times.

A&G - Could be arguably better for Corsair now. Looking at them for a minute it seems like they have the Burst Damage to rival captains. Move up, Drop Greede. Hit a singled out and start swinging with the big guy. Should easily be able to achieve 11 damage or more. After the drop and singled out Avarisse is throwing minimum 8 dice on 3 swings. Auto KD on the 1st one. He's probably gonna do at least 3 damage into 4 into 4. Greed can take a swing for a final 2 or hop back on.

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I honestly would have rathered they took away Shark's legendary entirely than lose G+S. And stagger is one if the least functional plays in the game. Im not committing shark as a set up piece for a takeout. And I wasn't wrapping to 9 hits on regular basis. Maybe if it was on the first coloumn I'd see it's use. But I would have rathered they take the whole column out of his playbook then even have access to stagger.  

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56 minutes ago, Frankanelli said:

 But I would have rathered they take the whole column out of his playbook then even have access to stagger.  

I am a fan of this idea too. If he can't shut a model down can a guy get some easier wraps to get the stuff we actually use?

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Stagger is so you can more easily reach for the MOM :><: on 4 or the MOM :PP: on 6 on subsequent attacks during a Shark run. It's not a setup piece for other models. I've used G&S for that before. The -4/-4 MOV was probably the better part of the play, sure, but the -1 Def isn't anything to sneeze at.

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1 hour ago, Siberys said:

Stagger is so you can more easily reach for the MOM :><: on 4 or the MOM :PP: on 6 on subsequent attacks during a Shark run. It's not a setup piece for other models. I've used G&S for that before. The -4/-4 MOV was probably the better part of the play, sure, but the -1 Def isn't anything to sneeze at.

Not saying it is worthless but if I have to spend AT LEAST 2 influence to get there, and still have a fair shot to not hit it, then I can probably spend 3 influence to get where I need to be. I don't think most people are saying it is worth but if the post is going to say it isn't a power thing then where is the other side of this? What did Shark get that made him more fun for us?

-1 def isn't bad but this is a captain. "Not bad" shouldn't be good enough, especially with another solid captain in the wings that after this and the change up with captain selection, looks much safer.

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I was wrong about the specific application of Stagger; you use it when you need to build up Momentum and consistently hit >< on a series of attacks.

Shark lost none of his goal threat. He's still plenty fun. Now he just won't shut down the opposing team's turn quite as much while doing it.

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And Farmers aren't one-captain? Everything I've read is that with the OPD you can't risk Grange getting the Kick-Off.

Shark's still solid, he's just not gonna kill the first turn for your opponent single-handedly.

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54 minutes ago, Siberys said:

I was wrong about the specific application of Stagger; you use it when you need to build up Momentum and consistently hit >< on a series of attacks.

Shark lost none of his goal threat. He's still plenty fun. Now he just won't shut down the opposing team's turn quite as much while doing it.

Yes, stagger does help you climb the playbook, but its a very inefficient way to accomplish that, which is exactly why I would have preferred to just lose the column (leave the 3 dmg on col5 too, thats not a problem). I would have preferred that tidal surge be a more accessible ability. I know it's unique to him, but it is very difficult to hit off the playbook and G+S was always more of his signature move. If you have 1 arm, tidal surge cant be reached on his current playbook. I know that gangups can get him there but Shark prefers that his team stay spread out, and his gameplan requires that he win quickly, so he often finds himself on his own. If he just lost a column, he would have an outside chance to yahtzee his attack roll and get to tidal surge. And if you wanted to just spam (><) then having it simply start on col3 is better. 

Alternatively, if stagger was -2 def, even just against attacks from Shark, he would have been able to combo stagger/KD a 4+/1 model to a 2+ with 7 dice, and again make tidal surge a possibility. Basically my issue with stagger, is that it would be better if he didn't have it. And if you have a rule that is making a model worse than it would be without it, that rule is intended to hold a character back. So we didn't just get a worse version of G+S, we lost a weapon and gained a shackle. 

19 minutes ago, Siberys said:

And Farmers aren't one-captain? Everything I've read is that with the OPD you can't risk Grange getting the Kick-Off.

Shark's still solid, he's just not gonna kill the first turn for your opponent single-handedly.

I honestly don't see how you can risk Shark as a blind drop. I don't think he's the worst captain ever now by any means. But I think Corsair is pretty much better all the time.  To be clear, I'm not saying that Shark was in a good place before, what I am saying is that he's still not in a good place. Its a lateral move at best. 

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You take him blind into a player you think can't keep up with the pace Shark sets, and the list of teams you do that into hasn't changed, really. I'd still run Shark into most Brewers lists, and I'd be willing to hazard it into Alchemists if I thought they wanted to focus on the ball instead of TOs, for example.

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24 minutes ago, MechMage said:

@Frankanelli There isn't a player in the game that wouldn't be buffed by removing a playbook column.

Yeah but if you took the commanding aura column away from tapper you'd be hurting his overall output for the team. If you take the balls gone away from greyscales he loses a tool. My point is that if stagger is supposed to "help you climb the playbook" it actually would do that specific job better by not existing. 

Also Shark lost the specific tool that made the brewers matchup so hard. He may still be fine into it but its not super strong anymore. And he can race for goals against goal teams sure, but Corsair can too by last picking siren1 and he'll bring takeout potential still. 

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27 minutes ago, Frankanelli said:

Also Shark lost the specific tool that made the brewers matchup so hard. He may still be fine into it but its not super strong anymore.

Isn't "super strong" from Fish's point of view "super weak" from Brewers?  That should be the point of balancing, to remove the "super"s and get everyone back to a more level playing field.

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12 minutes ago, WookieeGunner said:

Isn't "super strong" from Fish's point of view "super weak" from Brewers?  That should be the point of balancing, to remove the "super"s and get everyone back to a more level playing field.

Yes and no. I think the game as a whole can survive if certain captain matchups are not evenly balanced, so long as guilds have answers on a macro level. Because Shark is a skew that both Tapper and Esters struggle with, it definitely needed to be fixed.  But since Brewers already have an, "Esters struggles to do anything better or usefully different than Tapper" problem, the issue could have been solved by reworking Esters into a captain that gives Brewers a game into goal skews. 

I know game balance is ridiculously difficult and suggesting that they rework another captain instead of 1 play is super easy from my armchair. And i'm not scooping on guild ball because of a nerf to my secondary captain. I would bet they play tested a couple things and they landed on this decision because they had to. I'm just bummed that they ended up having to resort to a nerf which feels heavy handed. 

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3 hours ago, Siberys said:

Stagger is so you can more easily reach for the MOM :><: on 4 or the MOM :PP: on 6 on subsequent attacks during a Shark run. It's not a setup piece for other models. I've used G&S for that before. The -4/-4 MOV was probably the better part of the play, sure, but the -1 Def isn't anything to sneeze at.

*sneeze*

Let's all take a moment, pick ourselves up by our bootstraps, and realize how much of a fking monster Corsair+A&G is gonna be.

I, for one, am looking forward to doing captain level damage twice in a turn.

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Shark is fine.

Thing is, he's just not as cool, and Corsair was probably slightly better before anyway. He's really the captain now *meme*

Choo choo, motherf*ckers.

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Ok ok.

I slept over it (don't even know if you say this in english).

I thought about it, drank a couple of beers in grief and licked the delicious tears of the alchimists players. No, seriously. Fish are fine. The errata ist good.

Shark just seems straightup worse than Corsair now and I don't even kno in which matchups I should play him. Stagger seems weak playstile wise in a Shark team an doesn't even fit thematically. I get that he had to loose some of his MOV debuff, but he should have gained something. Even SF thinks he was okay in terms of overall power, so he should not have gotten a straight nerf.

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15 hours ago, tehlon said:

*sneeze*

Let's all take a moment, pick ourselves up by our bootstraps, and realize how much of a fking monster Corsair+A&G is gonna be.

I, for one, am looking forward to doing captain level damage twice in a turn.

I for one was considering running Gutter as my union pick before the nerf. Now I'm salivating at the A+G train. *rubs fingers together* Got two weeks before my NoVA qualifier. The grinch grin is growing.

That said, I will still play shark into Brewers. I"m sure there's another team that shark is best against.

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I never really understood the anti corsair sentiment for brewers personally. I've never had much of an issue. He loves eating spigot/mash/friday for breakfast. By the time tapper shows up he can hold his own. Then aim for goals.

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5 hours ago, doublecheese said:

What if they changed Shark's legendary to be a 6 inch aura that inflicts gut and string instead.

Edit: nvm, I get where you're coming from. Ignore this. 

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13 hours ago, tehlon said:

I never really understood the anti corsair sentiment for brewers personally. I've never had much of an issue. He loves eating spigot/mash/friday for breakfast. By the time tapper shows up he can hold his own. Then aim for goals.

Tough hide is problem for Corsair but new A&G cover that. Study on a stick is bad for Brewers but their mp generation in a scrum can put vetSiren on the back foot. Point is it's a pretty even matchup. Which it wasn't before. 

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