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Theron and Hearne Both Buffed in New Errata

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2 hours ago, wrenwood said:

What I don't get is why this wasn't done in the Season 3 release. It isn't like these are solutions to new problems. SF is late to the game (although I'm glad they finally did SOMETHING)

They probably wanted to see how the Winter Heralds affected the team in the wild before changing existing models.

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I am pretty stoked overall.  Theron's new playbook actually does things.  BoSF change to allow players to target themselves is a glorious fix.  Previously the setup on that play made it clunky and easy for the opponent to counter.  I've got to get them back on the table to see how they play.   

 Sun Strike remains pretty meh, but perhaps he's balanced around that.  The other changes to Theron are pretty potent.  Sun Strike seems to profit in corner case situations, as some of you folks pointed out earlier.  I'll probably toss it out when Theron has an influence left over.  

Would Momentous Inspiration really have been that OP?  Perhaps that would have made Hunters tend to scrum rather than than Skirmish.  Perhaps I'm just spoiled with my Ballista.  

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I like the changes to OHearne... but I love the easy knockdown on VHearne! Hunters struggle with Knockdown, other than Seenah, and Knockdown is such a good condition.

 

But then, mom singled out and teleport is also good. The choices :'(

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So I played a game with Theron, Fahad, oHearne, Chaska, Egret, and Ulfr. I chose this lineup to get a feel for how much stronger BOTSF and Sun Strike felt.

 

Overall, I really liked how oHearne played. His 1/3 influence stat is not as crippling as before and he can play the support game he was meant to play. He doesn't dish out the damage, but he is quite flexible.

 

Theron still struggled, but is way better. My list selection didnt help him so I acknowledge that. Being able to fuel up BOTSF with Sun Strike is pretty nice. I kept forgetting his forest, so again my fault for his lackluster performance. I'm interested in trying him with a list that has an actual gameplan.

 

Egret. Sucks. Still sucks. Always sucks. Why do you have to suck as much as you do? The conditions game is usually a trap (with the exception of snare and knockdown), and poison is the worst condition in the game.  She can't deal damage very well and is a poor excuse for a striker with her static kick threat. This was a list to make her shine and she still pounds sand. 

 

Chaska: God almight does Egret suck! Oh, sorry. One interesting interaction I want to try with Chaska; we all know with Theron and Vet Hearne Chaska can Boombox four times. The problem with this is the amount of momentum this requires prior to activating Chaska. With Sun Strike, as long as you hit two of the Boombox's Chaska can fuel up another Boomboc with Last Light. 

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I've played a few games of Theron post errata. Sun strike is pretty useful imho. Sure you are going to flub rolls on character plays from time to time but the same thing happens with Ballista's momentous inspiration. I suppose the trade off versus momentous inspiration is that with SS you are afforded mobility so that someone like Egret can maintain a safe distance or get herself into position to strike whilst also being able to generate MP at range.

I am finding it makes Theron's first turn a good deal better, particularly in the sense that it turns on BotSF and allows you to apply solid damage, apply control effects in snared/pinned/sniped and generate enough MP to contest initiative/use counter attacks/heal/use heroic plays/bonus time things.

Hunters like to play a slippery game and being able to control at range whilst doing damage AND generating MP whilst not having to commit your somewhat fragile damage dealers to disadvantageous melee seems pretty good to me.

Combine that with Theron and oHearne's other changes and I am finding they have the grunt they previously did not.

Each to their own I guess.

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10 hours ago, Anudem said:

Egret. Sucks. Still sucks. Always sucks. Why do you have to suck as much as you do? The conditions game is usually a trap (with the exception of snare and knockdown), and poison is the worst condition in the game.  She can't deal damage very well and is a poor excuse for a striker with her static kick threat. This was a list to make her shine and she still pounds sand. 

 

Chaska: God almight does Egret suck! Oh, sorry. One interesting interaction I want to try with Chaska; we all know with Theron and Vet Hearne Chaska can Boombox four times. The problem with this is the amount of momentum this requires prior to activating Chaska. With Sun Strike, as long as you hit two of the Boombox's Chaska can fuel up another Boomboc with Last Light. 

Strange, I've played 2 games since the errata and my experience is quite different. I've played Theron, Jaecar, Chaska, oHearne, Egret, Fahad and Theron, Snow, Jaecar, Egret, Minx, oHearne.

For the first time i felt that hunters can do what we were promised: keep the enemy away, soften them up from range, than swiftly attack and vanish.

Egret: first turn I put 3 inf on oHearne, 4 on Egret, and rest on Theron, since the rest of the team is quite fast by themself and they can get into position. If you activate your sunstrike + blessed Egret last, you have a great chance of succeeding with the aoe attack, damaging possibly multiple enemies. One enemy hit means 4 damage that you caused because of the poison. If you hit multiple enemies it can ramp up quickly. Also she usually has a snared 2+ or 3+ enemy to farm momentum and to win the initiative (but you might want the enemy to start so he doesn't have any momentum, and he can't really reach your team). After her turn Egret can go back to the shadows and get out of reach from the enemy. In my 2 games I managed to stay away from the enemy for most of the first 2 turns and wear them down. One important thing is that Egret isn't an offensive striker , her tackle is too high for her 4 attack. Even if you charge you are better off with the momentumless 1 damage + T result, since you can dodge at least. She is great when you keep her back, deal damage from far, and you use her to answer the enemy goals. If you need goal pressure, Ulfr is your man. But Theron control doesn't worth too much without ranged damage, what's the point than?

Chaska: he was one of my favorites, but the reason he was so great is because Theron was just a battery player after the first turn, and his inf was perfect for Chaska. Since Theron is a real captain now, it's hard to find the required inf for mass boomboxing. I feel like boomboxing now is more fun than useful. Shooting more than 2 needs setup and Chaska isn't the hardest model to kill. He also doesn't really like to be engaged, pushed too far away, etc. I feel like almost every team has an answer against him that can make the inf less useful on him. Also he turns 4 inf into 8 damage by himself. Other characters can do the same with better chance, and get 4 inf in the process (Jaecar to name one).

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1 hour ago, szendroib said:

Strange, I've played 2 games since the errata and my experience is quite different. I've played Theron, Jaecar, Chaska, oHearne, Egret, Fahad and Theron, Snow, Jaecar, Egret, Minx, oHearne.

For the first time i felt that hunters can do what we were promised: keep the enemy away, soften them up from range, than swiftly attack and vanish.

Egret: first turn I put 3 inf on oHearne, 4 on Egret, and rest on Theron, since the rest of the team is quite fast by themself and they can get into position. If you activate your sunstrike + blessed Egret last, you have a great chance of succeeding with the aoe attack, damaging possibly multiple enemies. One enemy hit means 4 damage that you caused because of the poison. If you hit multiple enemies it can ramp up quickly. Also she usually has a snared 2+ or 3+ enemy to farm momentum and to win the initiative (but you might want the enemy to start so he doesn't have any momentum, and he can't really reach your team). After her turn Egret can go back to the shadows and get out of reach from the enemy. In my 2 games I managed to stay away from the enemy for most of the first 2 turns and wear them down. One important thing is that Egret isn't an offensive striker , her tackle is too high for her 4 attack. Even if you charge you are better off with the momentumless 1 damage + T result, since you can dodge at least. She is great when you keep her back, deal damage from far, and you use her to answer the enemy goals. If you need goal pressure, Ulfr is your man. But Theron control doesn't worth too much without ranged damage, what's the point than?

Chaska: he was one of my favorites, but the reason he was so great is because Theron was just a battery player after the first turn, and his inf was perfect for Chaska. Since Theron is a real captain now, it's hard to find the required inf for mass boomboxing. I feel like boomboxing now is more fun than useful. Shooting more than 2 needs setup and Chaska isn't the hardest model to kill. He also doesn't really like to be engaged, pushed too far away, etc. I feel like almost every team has an answer against him that can make the inf less useful on him. Also he turns 4 inf into 8 damage by himself. Other characters can do the same with better chance, and get 4 inf in the process (Jaecar to name one).

New Blood-can you run through the Theron is a battery player after the first turn for me? You don't really load theron up after that first turn?

 

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Yeah, that was what I meant, sorry if it was misleading :). Usually Theron didn't receive too much inf before, because others spent it more efficiently. He was good in the first round, but he shot 2 for 5 inf. If you wanted to be efficient with your blessings, you had a really strict activation order aswell to hand out buffs in the team. Now he is much better both in ranged and melee, so I find it hard to allocate 4 (or sometimes even 2) on Chaska.

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I still find Theron best as a battery actually. His T1 potential got a huge shot in the arm, but he's in relatively the same spot after that, he can just do his job now. My typical team and allocation goes like this.

Theron - 2
Fahad - 0
Chaska - 4
Egret - 0
Hearne - 2
Jaecar - 4

Jaecar is okay not taking any on the turns where he can't, or his targets are suboptimal. 2 on Egret and 2 more on Theron is a sweet spot, but I always find a use for a full stack on Chaska. Even just splitting four between Chaska and Egret (for her Flurry and literally nothing else). Whatever the case, the team is hugely more adaptable thanks to the Blessing changes.

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Theron can crank out damage now with the playbook readjustment. Last game I played I gave him a full clip and did 17 damage  and a takeout to a KD, snared oKat w. one assist and used 5 inf to do it. He then used the last inf to do mom2 + snare to mercury. Could have been a 21 damage activation but I missed TN on the blessing. That activation was a mixed bag with a combination of below average and above average rolls.

He is a very efficient melee damage dealer now.

The thing I like the most is the flexibility though. You can run him as a battery and help the team or you can go full beast mode with him and get work done. The mom 1  as his first playbook result and the non mom 4 on the sixth column are huge in terms of set up, MP generating and then overall damage output when you start wrapping.

Just feels like the whole machine is working smoothly following the changes.

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If you need a good battery, I find that Minx does that well.  I like her as a striker over Egret anyhow.  

As for the Theron/Chaska Quandry, I'm going to try it out tonight.  In the past I liked to load up theron and use chaska as a battery and blessing target.  On turns when Chaska is in position to do things, he gets a large stack.  

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I would say that A+G is a good fit for Hunters right now. With their changes you lose a striker but get an insane DMG/MOM dealer and in Hunters specifically, you can turn them up to 11. With Singled Out available elsewhere, you can save putting INF into Greede (and make that first attack much more powerful assuming you whack with A+G first) combined with Snare to really drop Defence. A 4/1 model becoming a 2/1 model with SO on is basically dead. Skatha can make his walk/doom zone larger than other factions as well. I think A+G might be edging out Minx for me - they are just so destructive now (you should expect 10+ MOM DMG, spiking to 16+ if you get the setup). 

Take note SFG - Seenah should have auto KD as well as a +1 DMG buff. I mean seriously, A+G are better in every way than Seenah (and although Seenah looks INF efficient, the -2 INF means that actually they work out the same). I mean AUTO KNOCKDOWN...WTF SFG. The bear is totally outshone now. That's sad. 

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Well, to be fair if you're using the auto-KD you're dropping off Greede which means you're probably allocating him at least one so you can pick him back up. That means that Seenah is actually more INF-efficient.

I wonder if just picking up Greede once and never putting him back down will be the way to play A&G in this team. That effective 7 TAC is spicy.

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6 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

I would say that A+G is a good fit for Hunters right now. With their changes you lose a striker but get an insane DMG/MOM dealer and in Hunters specifically, you can turn them up to 11. With Singled Out available elsewhere, you can save putting INF into Greede (and make that first attack much more powerful assuming you whack with A+G first) combined with Snare to really drop Defence. A 4/1 model becoming a 2/1 model with SO on is basically dead. Skatha can make his walk/doom zone larger than other factions as well. I think A+G might be edging out Minx for me - they are just so destructive now (you should expect 10+ MOM DMG, spiking to 16+ if you get the setup). 

Take note SFG - Seenah should have auto KD as well as a +1 DMG buff. I mean seriously, A+G are better in every way than Seenah (and although Seenah looks INF efficient, the -2 INF means that actually they work out the same). I mean AUTO KNOCKDOWN...WTF SFG. The bear is totally outshone now. That's sad. 

Completely disagree - Seenah threats further, has 2" melee and charges for free. They're actually quite different to each other. While I find them more tempting for Hunters now, I'm not convinced they work that well here due to their relatively slow speed (really Avarisse has just a 5" threat if you don't want to give up significant performance) which might not be fast enough for the Hunters hit and run playstyle...

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10 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

I would say that A+G is a good fit for Hunters right now. With their changes you lose a striker but get an insane DMG/MOM dealer and in Hunters specifically, you can turn them up to 11. With Singled Out available elsewhere, you can save putting INF into Greede (and make that first attack much more powerful assuming you whack with A+G first) combined with Snare to really drop Defence. A 4/1 model becoming a 2/1 model with SO on is basically dead. Skatha can make his walk/doom zone larger than other factions as well. I think A+G might be edging out Minx for me - they are just so destructive now (you should expect 10+ MOM DMG, spiking to 16+ if you get the setup). 

Take note SFG - Seenah should have auto KD as well as a +1 DMG buff. I mean seriously, A+G are better in every way than Seenah (and although Seenah looks INF efficient, the -2 INF means that actually they work out the same). I mean AUTO KNOCKDOWN...WTF SFG. The bear is totally outshone now. That's sad. 

A&G's weak point is their 5" threat range. Avarisse really doesn't want to have to charge.

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He could be pretty good in a Skatha team, Snowball and Fast ground would help. Even Zarola could make him good. However, he strikes me as the kind of model that wants to scrum, which I don't think we do so well...

Personally, i find the hit and run tactics the best, jumping in and out, snaring etc. and I don't think he would fit my play style. But it's worth a try :)

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I think my point was, A+G will do more DMG than Seenah and take less in return, and Seenah is a 2/4 model - she is sucking in 4 INF to get 3 attacks - same as A+G. Furious is nice, but A+G bring their own DMG buff, their own Singled Out buff (costs an extra INF of course, but no order of activation issues and +1 TAC from gang up) and sure, if they are >5" away it sucks but we have a faction full of pushes...I've pushed models into the 5" zone with Hearne, Jaecar and Theron. And if worst case A+G have to run (NEVER EVER CHARGE A+G!) and drop Greede off, 2 attacks with auto KD still does serious work. And if you started ENGAGING A+G - you are also dead. Models engaging Seenah are less bothered really.

Given the INF is the same, I can't see why I'd bother with Seenah. Other than the awesome model. She just doesn't do enough and A+G are reliable take out machines. The killer is the KD and DMG on 1, which with Greede buff works out the same as column 5 of Seenah. That's just bad.

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@EpicChris Seenah brings Bearhug for an extra VP, either turning 2 player take outs into 6 VP or 1 mascot take out into 2 VP.  He doesn't lock Minx out of the roster and he doesn't rely on a 7 HP liability to function.  Greed can always end attached, but that reduces Avarisse to a 1/4.  I'm not sure all that is a compelling reason to take Seenah over A&G, but I don't think it's a straight upgrade.

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Bear hug is great. Definitely. My problem is, of all the +x vp abilities it is the worst by miles. It requires you roll 6 successes after armour on the takeout roll. That's not very likely without obvious setup. If it was "when this model inflicts a take out" like all the others, I'd be more kind. But at the moment it's super flaky. 

Seenah is always a huge disappointment to me. Her low KD is nice but def+armour always seem to cause me to miss the juicy stuff. She wants snared up, but any sane coach will clear snared near her. I guess A+G do a similar job more reliably for me. But perhaps play styles vary. I will watch Nationals with interest. 

PS the irony is A+G do more DMG to Seenah than she can do back to A+G...

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I've found Seenah a liability in nearly every game I take her into.

She deprives you of too much influence while providing meager rewards for the cost and setup required of her, and your opponent has an easy time generating an MP advantage off of her.

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43 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

Bear hug is great. Definitely. My problem is, of all the +x vp abilities it is the worst by miles. It requires you roll 6 successes after armour on the takeout roll. That's not very likely without obvious setup. If it was "when this model inflicts a take out" like all the others, I'd be more kind. But at the moment it's super flaky. 

Seenah is always a huge disappointment to me. Her low KD is nice but def+armour always seem to cause me to miss the juicy stuff. She wants snared up, but any sane coach will clear snared near her. I guess A+G do a similar job more reliably for me. But perhaps play styles vary. I will watch Nationals with interest. 

PS the irony is A+G do more DMG to Seenah than she can do back to A+G...

Trying to recall my last Hunters game where I didn't get a bear hug takeout... trying and failing...

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I definitely think Seenah's value varies greatly by playstyle. I've played several games without Seenah and ended up wishing I had him, but I can't remember a single game where I played him and regretted it. In most games I've played with Seenah he ends up being the games MVP. Don't always get the Bear Hug takeout with him but he is typically good for at least 2 take outs. 

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