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Bertmac

Is scoring goals too easy.

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Between flint, mist, a&g, shark it doesn't seem like there is much of a way to stop these strikers other than if they roll poorly at times. 

There also seems to be 1 plot card better than the rest just like season 1's don't touch the hair, knee slider which makes it even less of a worry getting your striker up the field early.

What are peoples thoughts? Goal scoring with a lot of players feels like a point and click exercise rather than a tactical victory for me.

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Funny timing, MO-Ball's latest episode and its forum post are about whether it's un-fun to try to make scoring goals hard. :D

I do think the power gulf between teams that can always threaten a goal and those that can't is a bit too big right now. Good scoring teams have the luxury to choose between an all-goal win and a mixed win, whereas teams without great scoring are being pigeonholed into aiming for a low- or no-scoring win because allowing the ball into play for both teams usually just means the good scoring team makes VPs happen faster than you can compete against.

Even if the current top dogs got nerfed, I think there's a problem with how goals are set up right now in Guild Ball. They're way too binary. It's not really tactically interesting to just measure whether Flint is in goal range or not once the ball happens to scatter right next to him; it's also not fun to be in a hotly contested 8-8 game, defend the ball as best you can, and then hope that Shark fails to get that last << that just nets him 4 more points. It's of course a dice game, but the nature of goals being IN or OUT with no half-measures makes a lot of game endings feel out of my hands both as the winner and as the loser. Playbooks are such a cool idea from this game and take the dice pool mechanics and turn it into a nuanced thing with texture and varying levels of success. Goals don't have that, you either score 4 points or you score 0. 

My latest idea is for something, like a stat or a bunch of traits, that changes how different models score points with goals, and then make goals across the board a bit more accessible. So you could have like Shark, who scores goals like an absolute machine, but his goals don't give you goal influence and are worth 3 points. Then there's Midas, who would be nerfed a bit and not be reliable at scoring, but since he's such a showoff his goals are worth 4 or even 5 points. Then there's Obulus who always wants a sure thing, so he normally scores 3 points with his goals but if he is within 3" of the goal he gets the Tap-In effect and nets you TWO goal INF! Stuff like that.

Problem of course being that this is basically a total redesign and rebalance of the game lol. But maybe that's what it takes? Not sure.

Edit: Missing goals feels awful for both players too imo. At Spring Fling a Brisket3 player missed a 3-die goal against me. I didn't outplay him, and he took a 96.3% shot which is a good choice. So I just suddenly reaped this huge reward for basically no reason on my or his part because a 3.7% possibility happened to go off. Once that missed, since he was playing a scoring team and I was playing a fighting team, there was practically no way for him to win. Woooooo counterplay. 

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Yes and no.

 

Yes, scoring goals is too easy for the majority of the teams and the amount of teams that can score turn 1 is rather stupid IMO.

 

No in the sense that you need the ball to score and the meta is evolving to a more 'kill the ball' type of meta that makes for some seriously boring/unfun games but kicks a lot of the goal oriented teams right in the nuts.

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8 minutes ago, Isante said:

No in the sense that you need the ball to score and the meta is evolving to a more 'kill the ball' type of meta that makes for some seriously boring/unfun games but kicks a lot of the goal oriented teams right in the nuts.

I don't see how it kicks the goal scoring teams in the nuts at all. Its basically all any one can do to mitigate them right now. look at the weapons they bring. I mean how long can you keep it away from a good player with shark vitriol sakana mist A&G the sirens velocity hoist Midas ballista. there faster or have better range then most. they dodge in or have 2" melee to avoid falling victim to UM. the 2" melee helps them avoid 1" melee counter attacks completely and even vs 2" melee they always seem to be able to tackle and dodge away. they have all kinds of movement shenanigans on top of defensive tec to hold the ball once the get it. I mean there are plenty of other support pieces like mother and the hag that add to this and I wont mention them all but I absolutely do not feel these teams are ill equipped to handle the tactic being presented to them.

as for scoring to easily I think maybe right now it might be. I would like the teams to be finalized I think before I say for sure one way or another. I think the goalies ended up in strange places with the exception of tenderizer who just seems to be lacking a little something. I think if some other fighty teams get one and there just good it could help balance the gap a bit. 

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Just now, kegslayer13 said:

I don't see how it kicks the goal scoring teams in the nuts at all. Its basically all any one can do to mitigate them right now. look at the weapons they bring. I mean how long can you keep it away from a good player with shark vitriol sakana mist A&G the sirens velocity hoist Midas ballista. there faster or have better range then most. they dodge in or have 2" melee to avoid falling victim to UM. the 2" melee helps them avoid 1" melee counter attacks completely and even vs 2" melee they always seem to be able to tackle and dodge away. they have all kinds of movement shenanigans on top of defensive tec to hold the ball once the get it. I mean there are plenty of other support pieces like mother and the hag that add to this and I wont mention them all but I absolutely do not feel these teams are ill equipped to handle the tactic being presented to them.

as for scoring to easily I think maybe right now it might be. I would like the teams to be finalized I think before I say for sure one way or another. I think the goalies ended up in strange places with the exception of tenderizer who just seems to be lacking a little something. I think if some other fighty teams get one and there just good it could help balance the gap a bit. 

In my experience, yes, the scoring teams do have the tools to handle it.  The problem is that by the time they retrieve the ball, they have lost multiple models to takeouts and if they do manage to get the ball and score, you kill it again and keep pounding on them.  At Momcon I won 11 out of 12 games in the main events and won probably 4-5 games with 6 takeouts.  It is a brutal strategy that takes an insane amount of setup on their part but more importantly time.  I won at least 1-2 of my games because I forced my opponent to clock out and by the time they realized what was happening it was too late to stop so the only option they had was to go for it and I just cleaned up.

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Yes, absolutely.  And it's worth more points and you get extra INF from then on.  It is waaay more difficult to take someone out.   Yea, this is a game for football teams only now.

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32 minutes ago, Isante said:

In my experience, yes, the scoring teams do have the tools to handle it.  The problem is that by the time they retrieve the ball, they have lost multiple models to takeouts and if they do manage to get the ball and score, you kill it again and keep pounding on them.  At Momcon I won 11 out of 12 games in the main events and won probably 4-5 games with 6 takeouts.  It is a brutal strategy that takes an insane amount of setup on their part but more importantly time.  I won at least 1-2 of my games because I forced my opponent to clock out and by the time they realized what was happening it was too late to stop so the only option they had was to go for it and I just cleaned up.

What guild are you using? Were all 12 of your opponents at Momcon the scoring guilds?  Were the 4-5 victories you won 6-0 vs the footballing teams? Were the 1-2 clock outs vs the footballing teams? It sounds like you just kill the ball vs everyone.

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No, it's not. Each individual roll in a goal-sequence - all of the passes and kicks and what not - is much more important than any individual roll in combat; you miss an attack, you're being slightly inefficient. You miss a pass and your plan for the turn needs to change immediately. Goals are high-risk, high-reward, whereas killing is slower and has less of a reward but is much, much more consistent. For most goal-scoring teams, lengthening the game makes it progressively harder, and it's the other way around for kill-focused teams.

Not to mention, killing does have other benefits beside points; you're more consistently able to generate momentum, you can use kills for positional advantage and to create activation advantage, and with killing you're less likely to end up with a sacrificial model deep in enemy territory that you simply write off as part of the cost of getting points (barring supersolos like Fillet, I guess).

Finally, the game is Guild Ball. If you played season 2, you know what I'm talking about - killing was so much more consistent than going for the ball that the ball often played like an afterthought. The only things that really changed for the Fish, for example, were icy sponge making them slightly more survivable, and Tap-In, which they don't even use for most goals. It's not that goal-scoring got better, for the most part; killing got worse. And frankly it should have gotten worse.

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3 minutes ago, kegslayer13 said:

What guild are you using? Were all 12 of your opponents at Momcon the scoring guilds?  Were the 4-5 victories you won 6-0 vs the footballing teams? Were the 1-2 clock outs vs the footballing teams? It sounds like you just kill the ball vs everyone.

I used union for 8 games and Butchers for 4.

I didn't kill the ball vs everyone, but a lot of people - basically everyone I thought I could outfight (which is most teams when you use Union and Butchers!)

The 6-0 were specifically vs alchemists and fish teams.

The main victory clockout was vs an alchemist team when we were tied 4-4 and I was up on clock by about 10-15min.

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If the goal scoring teams are ALWAYS winning tournaments/games.  Then maybe, but this is a miniatures game that is about fantasy sports, so shouldn't goal scoring be a big part of it? Are the big goal scoring teams winning easily and constantly? or are there just some factions who don't deal with them as easily as others?

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8 minutes ago, Polipotent said:

If the goal scoring teams are ALWAYS winning tournaments/games.  Then maybe, but this is a miniatures game that is about fantasy sports, so shouldn't goal scoring be a big part of it? Are the big goal scoring teams winning easily and constantly? or are there just some factions who don't deal with them as easily as others?

They have been dominating for the last 6 months or so until recently when extreme measures are being taken to shut them down.

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9 minutes ago, Isante said:

They have been dominating for the last 6 months or so until recently when extreme measures are being taken to shut them down.

I am new so I was honestly wondering.  So the last 6 months all the teams that win have been doing so just on goals?

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5 minutes ago, Polipotent said:

I am new so I was honestly wondering.  So the last 6 months all the teams that win have been doing so just on goals?

Fish and Alchemists have been leading the tournament rankings mainly due to their powerful goal scoring abilities yes.

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I think Alchemists are the bigger baddies here because they can switch gears so easily. With a line up like

Either captain (read Midas) - mascot - Harry - Vitriol - oKat - flex

You can score or beat up. oKat is one of the best beaters in the game with his effective short play book, early momentous knockdown, and momentous crowd control/damage combined. Not to mention Harry too, even Vitriol for coup-de-grace. When you put that with Midas' and Vitriol's scoring threat, you have a team that can beat down or score up.

At least Shark and his crew have a harder time getting the two takeouts needed to make up for not getting that third scoring opportunity.

I know some teams are meant to be 6-0, and other 0-3, but it feels like the alchemists can really cover the whole continuum . So it's not just that scoring is too easy for them, everything is. 

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25 minutes ago, Isante said:

They have been dominating for the last 6 months or so until recently when extreme measures are being taken to shut them down.

What do you mean "extreme measures", exactly? I remember an earlier discussion on this topic - months ago, even - where people were saying that goal-scoring teams were doing well because people hadn't yet learned to deal with them, and that it'd turn out like S2 Butchers - dominating for the first half of the year, then left behind as the meta figured them out. That - roughly - seems to be what's happening.

As for the how much Fish and Alchs there have been, part of that is definitely echo-chamber - people hear they're the best, so they play those teams, so those teams get more spotlight. I don't think that scoring goals is the problem; I agree with @burroboskov that if there's a problem it's specifically how versatile the Alchemists are. That's borne out by the Vengeance data, at least - only Hunters and Alchemists were consistently outliers, the former on the low end (probably because they have to jump through so many hoops to perform) and the latter on the high end (see versatility).

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7 minutes ago, Siberys said:

What do you mean "extreme measures", exactly? I remember an earlier discussion on this topic - months ago, even - where people were saying that goal-scoring teams were doing well because people hadn't yet learned to deal with them, and that it'd turn out like S2 Butchers - dominating for the first half of the year, then left behind as the meta figured them out. That - roughly - seems to be what's happening.

As for the how much Fish and Alchs there have been, part of that is definitely echo-chamber - people hear they're the best, so they play those teams, so those teams get more spotlight. I don't think that scoring goals is the problem; I agree with @burroboskov that if there's a problem it's specifically how versatile the Alchemists are. That's borne out by the Vengeance data, at least - only Hunters and Alchemists were consistently outliers, the former on the low end (probably because they have to jump through so many hoops to perform) and the latter on the high end (see versatility).

Is there a central collection of data showing the results of all major tournaments? I was just wondering.  The Vengeance data seems to show a pretty even spread except for Alchemists and Hunters.  Hunters just took a win recently so good for them.  

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2 minutes ago, Polipotent said:

Is there a central collection of data showing the results of all major tournaments? I was just wondering.  The Vengeance data seems to show a pretty even spread except for Alchemists and Hunters.  Hunters just took a win recently so good for them.  

There is at Black Orifice, but the data for Vengeance comes from Tiebreak. You also need to keep in mind that BO is all historical data, so restricting it to just S3, or just post-Vengeance (when the OPD changed) is probably a good idea.

I'm not sure that the recent Hunters win is representative of anything, statistically speaking - from what I've heard that was a very small tournament with a number of inexperienced players.

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1 hour ago, Siberys said:

No, it's not. Each individual roll in a goal-sequence - all of the passes and kicks and what not - is much more important than any individual roll in combat; you miss an attack, you're being slightly inefficient. You miss a pass and your plan for the turn needs to change immediately. Goals are high-risk, high-reward, whereas killing is slower and has less of a reward but is much, much more consistent. For most goal-scoring teams, lengthening the game makes it progressively harder, and it's the other way around for kill-focused teams.

Not to mention, killing does have other benefits beside points; you're more consistently able to generate momentum, you can use kills for positional advantage and to create activation advantage, and with killing you're less likely to end up with a sacrificial model deep in enemy territory that you simply write off as part of the cost of getting points (barring supersolos like Fillet, I guess).

Finally, the game is Guild Ball. If you played season 2, you know what I'm talking about - killing was so much more consistent than going for the ball that the ball often played like an afterthought. The only things that really changed for the Fish, for example, were icy sponge making them slightly more survivable, and Tap-In, which they don't even use for most goals. It's not that goal-scoring got better, for the most part; killing got worse. And frankly it should have gotten worse.

as I stated originally I'm not completely sure scoring is to easy but I don't see how any of this helps make that case that its not. your whole first paragraph about the ball is true but its true for everyone. the ball is a resource just like influence and momentum. fight teams arguably need passes and the presumably fewer goal shots even more then the footballing teams who usually have the speed to recover the ball and get back on track with there game plan on top of having multiple goal threats. bottom line is when shit goes bad with the ball it dose not matter what team your using it just bad.                                                                                                                                             

    kill teams generate momentum is a nice idea but goals generate influence. most strikers love to be loaded up and with the exception of some brewer strikers and Midas most strikers do not have a heroic meaning if they get there full allocation they can do a lot of what they want and were designed to do. modifiers apply to both goals/passes and attacks so that's a wash. now if I declare a goal shot  what can your reaction be, nothing because no reaction exists. if a charge or attack is declared you can defensive stance or counter attack sometimes both. 

if you look at the percentages for each its not even close. a 3 dice goal shot has as a crazy percentage of being successful, you bonus time that sucker and it goes up even more, your within 4" it jumps up again. all this with no interaction from your opponent and double the victory points. season 2 is gone and it needed change which they provided. I don't see why this shouldn't be evaluated also now that it rules the roost so to speak.

and just because you or your local fish team doesn't use tap in doesn't mean they all don't. I wonder if my friend even knows the players full threat ranges as with all there movement and dodges he's almost only shooting  from tap in range. 

2 hours ago, Isante said:

I used union for 8 games and Butchers for 4.

I didn't kill the ball vs everyone, but a lot of people - basically everyone I thought I could outfight (which is most teams when you use Union and Butchers!)

The 6-0 were specifically vs alchemists and fish teams.

The main victory clockout was vs an alchemist team when we were tied 4-4 and I was up on clock by about 10-15min.

I would say your a pretty good player but based on what your bringing it seems like your only lining up to fight. not all the guilds have vet rage or fillet to champion there killing cause. glad your finding success with it though.

 

 

 if knee slider was instead slide tackle and  read " when an opponent declares a goal shot, a friendly model may make an advance up to its max move" I think we would be a little closer to the middle.

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46 minutes ago, kegslayer13 said:

as I stated originally I'm not completely sure scoring is to easy but I don't see how any of this helps make that case that its not. your whole first paragraph about the ball is true but its true for everyone. the ball is a resource just like influence and momentum. fight teams arguably need passes and the presumably fewer goal shots even more then the footballing teams who usually have the speed to recover the ball and get back on track with there game plan on top of having multiple goal threats. bottom line is when shit goes bad with the ball it dose not matter what team your using it just bad.                                                                                                                                             

    kill teams generate momentum is a nice idea but goals generate influence. most strikers love to be loaded up and with the exception of some brewer strikers and Midas most strikers do not have a heroic meaning if they get there full allocation they can do a lot of what they want and were designed to do. modifiers apply to both goals/passes and attacks so that's a wash. now if I declare a goal shot  what can your reaction be, nothing because no reaction exists. if a charge or attack is declared you can defensive stance or counter attack sometimes both. 

if you look at the percentages for each its not even close. a 3 dice goal shot has as a crazy percentage of being successful, you bonus time that sucker and it goes up even more, your within 4" it jumps up again. all this with no interaction from your opponent and double the victory points. season 2 is gone and it needed change which they provided. I don't see why this shouldn't be evaluated also now that it rules the roost so to speak.

The thing you're missing is opportunity cost. Goalscoring has very slim "margins", so to speak, and requires a lot of commitment from models; if I'm gunning for the goal, I'm aiming to end that activation with a score, and if anything goes wrong that could result in a higher cost in resources at best, and at worst I could completely lose the ball.

Not to mention that while there is one ball, there are six or more potential kill targets. Admittedly, it's rare that all of them will be available as realistic option, but that's still more flexibility than Goal Scoring gets, and it pays for that flexibility and the aforementioned reliability with a slower speed and by generating MOM instead of INF.

The reason the percentages are so much better is because, barring favorable scatters, you only have one chance to get it right. And with each pass and each shot a potential point to get it wrong, those chances compound.

46 minutes ago, kegslayer13 said:

and just because you or your local fish team doesn't use tap in doesn't mean they all don't. I wonder if my friend even knows the players full threat ranges as with all there movement and dodges he's almost only shooting  from tap in range. 

If that's the case, you're not doing enough to kill the ball, or your friend is being extremely cagey for a Fish.

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21 minutes ago, Siberys said:

The thing you're missing is opportunity cost. Goalscoring has very slim "margins", so to speak, and requires a lot of commitment from models; if I'm gunning for the goal, I'm aiming to end that activation with a score, and if anything goes wrong that could result in a higher cost in resources at best, and at worst I could completely lose the ball.

Not to mention that while there is one ball, there are six or more potential kill targets. Admittedly, it's rare that all of them will be available as realistic option, but that's still more flexibility than Goal Scoring gets, and it pays for that flexibility and the aforementioned reliability with a slower speed and by generating MOM instead of INF.

The reason the percentages are so much better is because, barring favorable scatters, you only have one chance to get it right. And with each pass and each shot a potential point to get it wrong, those chances compound.

If that's the case, you're not doing enough to kill the ball, or your friend is being extremely cagey for a Fish.

I don't believe I'm overlooking opportunity cost at all. the reason everyone's trying to kill the ball is because if the ball scoring teams get an opportunity they win. as far as commitment I don't know of anyone getting take outs without a full stack so I'm not sure what you mean there. its pretty much a guaranty that take outs need more resources then goal scoring.  

yes there are 6 players but one of them is only worth 1 point and there also 6 potential goal scorers. there not even close to all the same level of commitment either.  a full health corsair with tough hide and sturdy is a very different target then Jacar by himself. there's to much variance with take outs to even quantify it.  the question was "is it to easy to score goals" not whether kills were on par with scoring goals(which I don't even think is close either). I think what @Slothrop  suggested would be a lot closer to bridging the gap between goals and take outs were every player would be unique..

I'm definitely leaning towards its to easy to score goals right now but I also think that maybe some of the people I mentioned earlier are just to good at it and after some adjustments maybe the rules and plot cards are fine .

54 minutes ago, Siberys said:

If that's the case, you're not doing enough to kill the ball, or your friend is being extremely cagey for a Fish.

I'm not claiming to be expert level here and I certainly do need to try and kill the ball better but its just a relentless string of shark, sakana, siren, oh ya and then I'm blind from the freaking squid.

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So best way to sort this is wait until you have the ball and scream next goal wins, fire a goal run score and then just start packing up your models while singing we are the champions.......

Seriously though. I have only a couple of guys playing at the moment down here. One of them generally plays goal scoring teams. I tend to play Butchers and occasionally Hunters. I find it is a great way to test each other. He knows how brutal it is for him when he either misses or overextends, I know how bad it is for me if I do not have the ball in the right spot. We are generally pretty even when it comes to results (i think S2 was a bit better for me...go Fillet) and most games tend to end up at 10-10 and whoever gets the initiative role is going to win.

Scoring is definately easier than it was in S1 and S2 but it is a core part of the game and something that (as has been mentioned above) people are learning to counter and deal with. Again just another thing that makes the game so great.

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I don't have an issue with goal scoring being the "main way" to win in Season 3 so far.

Whether the game heavily leans towards takeouts or goals, I don't care that much because I find both strategies (or a mixture of the two) to be fun, and I like always having options.

I think the main issue that I would have if I had to point anything out would be to repeat what @Slothrop said. Basically, goals are very binary. You either score or you don't. While there are some awesome plays that can happen to set up sweet goals, I feel that most goals that people will play end up just being "hmm... let's put my measuring sticks down... can <insert striker here> reach? He can? OK, that's 4 points." Still fun for me, but i get why it's not exciting for some people.

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7 hours ago, kegslayer13 said:

like your only lining up to fight. not all the guilds have vet rage or fillet to champion there killing cause. glad your finding success with it though.

 

I do prefer the fighty game for sure.  I have done very well for Fish but I have lost tournaments due to a single failed goal shot etc.  Going for the 'safer' slow takeout game has overall yielded better results for me personally.

8 hours ago, Siberys said:

What do you mean "extreme measures", exactly?

Putting the ball in the corner of the board with your team between the ball and the enemy etc.  Was my main tactic at Musecon with Benediction with the ball behind the rest of my team in the corner of the board.

I have seen people wait till the enemy comes toward them then take a very fast striker and go and punt it on the other corner of the board thereby forcing the opponent to spend 2 turns retrieve it etc.

I have gone so far in games to hide the ball behind my goal line with Mash against Shark as I didn't really care about Momentum since his lineup does very little damage and rarely knocks down.

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10 hours ago, burroboskov said:

I think Alchemists are the bigger baddies here because they can switch gears so easily. With a line up like

Either captain (read Midas) - mascot - Harry - Vitriol - oKat - flex

You can score or beat up. oKat is one of the best beaters in the game with his effective short play book, early momentous knockdown, and momentous crowd control/damage combined. Not to mention Harry too, even Vitriol for coup-de-grace. When you put that with Midas' and Vitriol's scoring threat, you have a team that can beat down or score up.

At least Shark and his crew have a harder time getting the two takeouts needed to make up for not getting that third scoring opportunity.

I know some teams are meant to be 6-0, and other 0-3, but it feels like the alchemists can really cover the whole continuum . So it's not just that scoring is too easy for them, everything is. 

Alchemists are better at switching gears, but against a proper fighting team they won't win the fighting game. They still need to grab two goals in most cases. 

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I'd move the goal circle further back into deployent zone and add a goal keeper model or "totems" guarding gal posts that require either extra conditions met to be able to attempt to score or would have their own defensive stats.

A MOVING GOAL POST anyone??

 

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