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Folkenhellfang

2/3 is actually worse than 1/4

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As season 3 grinds on,  I've found that the major limiting factor on our beloved team is the 3 INF capacity.

I remember thinking it would be great on 'Hook. Now,  I see that it isn't. Seeing how the scoring teams load up a player it is clear that we have lost major options. Shank has lost a great deal of utility because of the change,  utility that was pretty balanced with his weak kicking stats.

I get that V Ox could be thought of as INF efficient, but I have yet to find a good way to leverage him. His 3 capacity has stifled him.

I understand that the scoring component is the soul of this game, it just seems that the efforts to keep the Butchers under control have neutered them. What do you think?

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I would agree that 3 inf cap is pretty heartbreaking. I think poor shank got slapped with a double nerf because SF didn't consider the changes to Icy Sponge's affect on him. I think one of these changes would have made shank fine. Both changes made him nearly useless. Vox feels pretty awkward because of it as well. Get stuck it seems so awkward in that it will cost him 1 inf and he's left with 2 to try and get anything done.

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I agree, Biso, Shank took a huge hit as did take outs in general. You used to be able to keep Shank deep in on your opponent's side of the table and credibly threaten returning models.

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Kinda agree with most of yall points. I was really liking shank when I was testing him awhile back but not having that extra influence kinda hurts him. When Vox was released I fell in love with his stats and I was probably rolling well with him at the beginning but now every time I take him I feel like some one else could have been better. Maybe shank and vox would be great at 1/4 we will never know.

Honestly this is just not our season maybe is S4 they will bring it back to a more take out friendly game but I don't think so. I do believe we should get another striker that maybe is on par with vitriol or just a little bit worse or give us better goal defense in the future.

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3 hours ago, Luthon1234 said:

Kinda agree with most of yall points. I was really liking shank when I was testing him awhile back but not having that extra influence kinda hurts him. When Vox was released I fell in love with his stats and I was probably rolling well with him at the beginning but now every time I take him I feel like some one else could have been better. Maybe shank and vox would be great at 1/4 we will never know.

Honestly this is just not our season maybe is S4 they will bring it back to a more take out friendly game but I don't think so. I do believe we should get another striker that maybe is on par with vitriol or just a little bit worse or give us better goal defense in the future.

It's really not the style of the butchers to have a striker on par with the very best in the entire game...

But yeah steamforged has really set out to create a lot of 3 influence cap players this season, both inside the butchers team and in other teams. It's not that bad on support models who rarely even get inf up to their cap but for models like shank losing that extra inf is pretty brutal. I'm not surprised hes extremely rare to see considering 2/3.

That being said, i think butchers are still in their top 4 position of all guilds, below alchs and fish and below union. 

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I'm not familiar with Butchers but I'm surprised Boiler doesn't get talked about more for exactly this reason.

He's alot less high profile than Fillet and is easier to get within Jog + attack range once the scrum starts near turn 2-ish so influence and buffs are fairly safe on him. Tac 5 with Momentous 2 on 2 hits and Anatomical Precision makes him deadly with only a few gang ups (let alone assist), crucial artery puts nearly everyone he pokes on the back leg, he's got a cheeky as hell knockdown, and most importantly, he can hold a full 4 Influence.

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It's NOT worse than 1/4 but the 3 is roughly as problematic as the 1 when it comes to Inf stats.  Generally speaking, if a player isn't 2/4 they have to do something completely absurd or else they're a liability.  It's a lot easier to see play as a 2/3 over a 1/4 though as long as you do enough when you only keep 1 of your Inf and give the other to the rest of the team.

vOx gets by with the 3 cap for me just fine on the back of his charge for 1.  He does a ton of work while still providing an Inf to players capable of doing more work as long as he can get his discount charge.  I have honestly never triggered The Old Ways though.  It's likely a trap.  Meathook similarly does a ton with 1, even more with 2.  It would be nice if she could take 4, but honestly she's sort of diminishing returns character, IMO and reliably putting 4 on her would often be more of a trap than anything.

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I think it depends on the model whether 2/3 is worse than 1/4.  For Shank, I agree that 1/4 would be better -- at least that way he's capable of being a big threat.  As is, he has mobility without the punch to do much when he gets there, and I just don't see the point of bringing him.  At 1/4 I'd consider him (though I'm not sure I'd play him) and at 2/4 with the mascot VP and icy sponge changes he'd be strong again but no longer an auto-include like he was in S2.

For Meathook, though, I prefer 2/3 over having her as 1/4.  At 2/3 she's a great setup/support model and isn't hurting your team on the turns she can't engage.

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Right.  If Shank was 1/4 he might be better than he is now, but ultimately you probably wouldn't take him because he's not really better enough to be worth less than the base 2/4 value players in this game get.

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Shank was legitimately too good in S2, having the ability to move so fast, finish off hurt characters, or go for a high risk score.  If they didn't remove 1 INF from him this season, with the Tap-In rules, Shank would be like a "Salt on Steroids" (in terms of killing ability, with almost as good goal threat).  I think if it wasn't the 2/3 INF, then probably dropping his kick down to 1/6" would be fair and good enough of a nerf. 

The less said about Meathook the better.  She's bonkers efficient with 1 INF. 

Butchers are still solidly in the middle of the pack, if not a little up (based on most recent stats).  In our local meta, 2 of our top players play Fillet Butchers and win many of the tournaments and leagues, even against the other Fish and Alch teams around.  So ultimately I think Butchers are in a good place right now.

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I came from battle board games back ground, as soon as I realised how EASY it is to score, and how LOOONG goal threat ranges can be I quit fightin' completely, in my last 4 games I did only 1 take out with hunters, I also lost just one game.

It seems to me that although brawl can generate a ton of momentum, it takes too long to reach 12 points with just killz

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The 2/3 models that can do something with less than a full stack are still worth taking.

Meathook is still good with 1 or 2 for setting up fillet with Hooked and Bleed and/or Tooled up. The third INF rarely does a lot more.

VOx can threaten a charge with just 1 INF, and can get 4 INF or effect out of 3 so isn't as big a problem. Some people (not me) seem to struggle to find value in vOx, and whilst I still like him for what he brings, modest though it may be, I don't think that the 3-cap is really the problem with him.

Shank, on the other hand, doesn't really do anything of value other than providing targeted kills and ball retrieval/goal threat. The 3-cap on him costs him massively. He was strong in S1 and 2, but the base rules to icy sponge and mascot VP nerfed him enough IMO. Even with 4 INF he's unlikely to TO someone without a lot of set up.

I suppose the question is whether 1/4 is better than 2/3? It depends. On Meathook I think I'd rather the 2/3, but on Shank I'd be happier with 1/4. I think it fits the fluff, too, as he's supposed to be this untrustworthy character that nobody really likes, so it fits that he's super INF-hungry, sucking the life out of the rest of the team. That said, I like the balance of my current Butchers line up of Harry, vOx, Meathook and vBrisket or Boiler, I'm not sure how I'd fit a 1/4 INF shank into that team.

Ben

 

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13 hours ago, kryzak said:

Shank was legitimately too good in S2, having the ability to move so fast, finish off hurt characters, or go for a high risk score.  If they didn't remove 1 INF from him this season, with the Tap-In rules, Shank would be like a "Salt on Steroids" (in terms of killing ability, with almost as good goal threat).  I think if it wasn't the 2/3 INF, then probably dropping his kick down to 1/6" would be fair and good enough of a nerf. 

The less said about Meathook the better.  She's bonkers efficient with 1 INF. 

Butchers are still solidly in the middle of the pack, if not a little up (based on most recent stats).  In our local meta, 2 of our top players play Fillet Butchers and win many of the tournaments and leagues, even against the other Fish and Alch teams around.  So ultimately I think Butchers are in a good place right now.

The question isn't if butchers are good it's if shank is even useable with 3 cap. The answer is no. He can't be or a goal or kill threat with 3 inf because his speed is based on charging. No one is complaining about meathook. But vox is pretty meh with 3. He should probably have rowdy as baseline instead of an awkward activated.

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4 hours ago, Bisounours said:

The question isn't if butchers are good it's if shank is even useable with 3 cap. The answer is no. He can't be or a goal or kill threat with 3 inf because his speed is based on charging. No one is complaining about meathook. But vox is pretty meh with 3. He should probably have rowdy as baseline instead of an awkward activated.

From the original poster:

"As season 3 grinds on,  I've found that the major limiting factor on our beloved team is the 3 INF capacity.

I remember thinking it would be great on 'Hook. Now,  I see that it isn't. Seeing how the scoring teams load up a player it is clear that we have lost major options. "

So, not "No one is complaining about meathook". :P

As for whether Butchers are good or not, also from the original poster:

"I understand that the scoring component is the soul of this game, it just seems that the efforts to keep the Butchers under control have neutered them. What do you think?"

So my post is addressing the OP's points regarding Shank, Meathook, and the Butchers team being neutered.  

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I mean.. Micheal decided to play Butchers on the day of Vengeance and then went 6-1 and placed 4th out of 116 people. 

I don't think anyone can realistically say Filet, <Mascot> vBrisket, vOx, <Other 2 players, like Meathook, Boar, Boiler> is in any, any, any way a bad team. Not only that but Butchers are in the top 4 for win % so far in season 3 from BO.

To quote a nerdy Shakira "Those Statstics don't lie"

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