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Sir Orpheus

Knight Artorias (Steamforged please!)

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So, @Sir Orpheus, while I understand your concern, I have to disagree wholeheartedly.

I definitely don't want Steamforged to care about what others are doing. I want this to be a standalone product, and as such I want any iconic character to be instantly recognisable as such with no concern whatsoever how other companies have presented said characters in other media.

Has the Artorias pose been used elsewhere? Yes. Of course. For the exact same reason SFG is using it: because any other pose would look/feel wrong.

Strangely enough, you say you're fine with Solaire in a Praise the Sun pose even though that exact character is ALWAYS presented in said pose. Why is it that in this instance you don't mind, but you do for Artorias?

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36 minutes ago, Spinsane said:

So, @Sir Orpheus, while I understand your concern, I have to disagree wholeheartedly.

I definitely don't want Steamforged to care about what others are doing. I want this to be a standalone product, and as such I want any iconic character to be instantly recognisable as such with no concern whatsoever how other companies have presented said characters in other media.

Has the Artorias pose been used elsewhere? Yes. Of course. For the exact same reason SFG is using it: because any other pose would look/feel wrong.

Strangely enough, you say you're fine with Solaire in a Praise the Sun pose even though that exact character is ALWAYS presented in said pose. Why is it that in this instance you don't mind, but you do for Artorias?

Actually I said I would prefer if Solair was in a more combative pose. Throwing a lightning spear or something of that effect.

I dissagree that using a different pose would at all effect him being "recognisable". His character design alone is more than distinguishable from any other character in the game. 

The whole concept "using a different pose would look/feel wrong is such a shallow concept. A pose shouldn't be the soul identity of anything. I think SFG should pay attention to what others are/have done. Oherwisw they just come across as copy cats to me. Its like a good song. First time you hear it, it sounds great, you love it and want to play it over and over...  Only once you have done that, the song is no longer something you really want to listen to. So it remains in your playlist, untouched for months at a time. Overusing something, even iconic (it's not even really icon, he is in that pose for no more than 3 seconds) , I personally feel can kill the whole experience. 

Artorias's identity is not a pose, it's his overall design. A design that Would in no way or form be altered by making him stand differently. Its not going to change who he is, But make him stand out from all the current existing Artorias merchandise. Unfortunitly for me, I don't see steamforge caving their own path. Sad but nothing can really be done. As said, priority goes to the mass. 

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Oh well, miss the point then if that's what you want.

Why even stop there, then?

The boardgame Artorias should be unique, not with just use the same armour design as every other incarnation. It should wear a distinct, more original design. Otherwise yit just feels like another cheap knockoff of Bandai Namco's design.

+ Edit : In case I wasn't clear enough:

Except for anyone who has actually played the DS1 DLC, Artorias's depiction is limited to that one single pose. That includes any boardgame who wants to give the game a try who has no interest whatsoever in the videogame. While they might be a minority, and would more than likely not be as interested in the lore and characters as avid DS fans would be, they still exist. There's a reason every single rendition of the characters (especially Artorias, Sif, Solaire and Patch) always remain the same; their poses are just as integral a part of the character's iconic imagery as their outfits.

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Wow, snarky comeback Spinsane.

This kind of discussion, and the way it's headed is why I more or less dropped the community and stopped posting here, on facebook and work on content. You have an opinion that goes against the majority and popular opinion and you get attitude or hate in return. It's the same in the Dark Souls community where you get some nice comments and attitude if you like Dark Souls 2 more than the other games.

You're pulling it to the extreme with your comparison of what Orpheus or I am saying. And the comment about it being the one single pose depicted, that's BS and then some. It's the most used and common depiction, but not the only one.

So you're happy about the iconic poses, good for you. There are some who don't agree even if it's not as many. You already know our opinion won't matter anyway, yours or mine. Bandai has final say and will perhaps pull another Dancer, or they might enforce the iconic poses, SFG has their vision and no matter what we say they dance to their own tune. I'm done here.

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Well guys, on the plus side, the minis are plastic and easy to mod and repose on our own :)

 

Not so much with Solaire tho...ggguuuh that guy's gonna be a beast to mod >.<

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1 hour ago, MushyBrains said:

You're pulling it to the extreme with your comparison of what Orpheus or I am saying. And the comment about it being the one single pose depicted, that's BS and then some. It's the most used and common depiction, but not the only one.

I did, I know, and that was intended.

Thing is, my point remains valid; the pose they are renowned for is just as much a part of the iconic character Bandai is selling as the character's outfit is. Whether you like it or not, for anyone who has not played the game, THAT is the one pose they are familiar with. It's the one pose that is present in 50% or more of the not-fan-made artwork where he is depicted.

Sure, you could sell a sculpt of any athlete/star/icon in any pose, but you know, like it or not, that trying to sell a Chuck Norris sculpt in any pose other than a roundhouse kick is not gonna sell as well.

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Lets avoid too much snark and hyperbole please folks!

 

We've been giving the dark souls community some leeway because kickstarters are frustrating (particularly when they don't go smoothly), but please play nice. It's only a discussion about model posing after all!

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Yeah, what happened to jolly co-operation? Solaire would be most displeased.

I see a lot of people talking about minority opinions getting hated on, but that's kinda unfair to the majority when we're offering our opinions and being labelled as haters and the like. Maybe I don't speak for everyone, but I find it pretty upsetting the lack of respect both sides have shown as of recent. Keep it civil okay?

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10 hours ago, Spinsane said:

Oh well, miss the point then if that's what you want.

Why even stop there, then?

The boardgame Artorias should be unique, not with just use the same armour design as every other incarnation. It should wear a distinct, more original design. Otherwise yit just feels like another cheap knockoff of Bandai Namco's design.

+ Edit : In case I wasn't clear enough:

Except for anyone who has actually played the DS1 DLC, Artorias's depiction is limited to that one single pose. That includes any boardgame who wants to give the game a try who has no interest whatsoever in the videogame. While they might be a minority, and would more than likely not be as interested in the lore and characters as avid DS fans would be, they still exist. There's a reason every single rendition of the characters (especially Artorias, Sif, Solaire and Patch) always remain the same; their poses are just as integral a part of the character's iconic imagery as their outfits.

You were more then clear enough. And I can be mature and accept your opinion, I also reserve the right to polity disagree with it, and there really is no need for snark hostility because of it. My point also remaines valid. But truth still remaines, changing how a character stands does not in anyway change the actual physical apperence of a character. 

You stated your opinion as everyone else has, and your feedback is appreciated. Please just respect the fact that others do not share in your opinion, and that there is no wrong in some of us who prefer original over mainstream. 

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You know, for someone who never played fully through the games, yet is an avid table top gamer and a fan of the Dark Souls dark gothic theme, I think the pose works well.  I understand why a fan of the games might want something new, but I would be less likely to notice his arm being limp in an action pose.  I did not know the background of the character until reading this thread.  Seeing the pose he is used most in shows a part of that background.  So to newer fans, the pose might be highly effective.  This may be why marketing makes it so common to use the same poses for characters.

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1 hour ago, KaiinRetsu said:

You know, for someone who never played fully through the games, yet is an avid table top gamer and a fan of the Dark Souls dark gothic theme, I think the pose works well.  I understand why a fan of the games might want something new, but I would be less likely to notice his arm being limp in an action pose.  I did not know the background of the character until reading this thread.  Seeing the pose he is used most in shows a part of that background.  So to newer fans, the pose might be highly effective.  This may be why marketing makes it so common to use the same poses for characters.

This right here.

I haven't even considered that yet, but indeed this pose isn't just iconic, it also tells us about the character.

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1 hour ago, KaiinRetsu said:

You know, for someone who never played fully through the games, yet is an avid table top gamer and a fan of the Dark Souls dark gothic theme, I think the pose works well.  I understand why a fan of the games might want something new, but I would be less likely to notice his arm being limp in an action pose.  I did not know the background of the character until reading this thread.  Seeing the pose he is used most in shows a part of that background.  So to newer fans, the pose might be highly effective.  This may be why marketing makes it so common to use the same poses for characters.

I can't say I can agrue with that point. Didn't really think of it in that Fasion. Dipicting his broken arm in a different pose would make it difficult to recognise it at all. And being it tells a essential part of his current state, it would be more accessable to the none video game players.

But like I said, if the majority want that pose and it helps sales, that's what SFG should do. I mean I don't have to like it, but it's what I would do from a business standpoint. And the more money they make = more expansions so there's that. 

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For me, that pose is so emotionally powerful and is quite possibly the best presentation of a non-player character in an rpg EVER. It instantly makes you care about the character and want to know his whole life story. It compells you to pity and respect him. It touches a part of your imagination that was never awake before you knew who artorias was. I will remember artorias on my deathbed because of the way he was presented in the game.

Anything but that pose on the model would be a complete failure in my eyes, not only just for me, but for everyone else who doesn't know who artorias is yet. They wouldn't be empowered with the ability to feel all these things about the character if the presentation is different, and i think everyone deserves to see the creative depth in his character. It would be a shame to deprive them of that.

I can't think of an alternative pose that would even come close to telling his story like the iconic arm dragging warrior pose does. 

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There's a really easy solution to this, you know :P

 

If Steamforged wanted to, when they Kickstart Wave 2 they could easily add another box with Armor Set #2, as there are many armor sets that are iconic to the game that we don't have yet (Faraam Armor, Moon Butterfly set, Heide Knight, the new Ringed Knight set, Desert Pyromancer set (just to troll everyone; the dude) they could easily add in another Artorias Model with him having his sword and shield for a different pose.

 

Alternatively, a Boss Armor expansion where you have smaller, usable versions of the various bosses (So an actual O&S for campaigns if you wanted to do that after you beat him) and make an Arty model in that with different equipment.

 

I'd be willing to buy the ability to have PC bosses, anyway.

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Actually that brings up a really good point Slarg... do we know what the armor set expansion(s) will do? Are they just for alternate character models?

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I have no idea, but what I'm hoping for is that the Armor set comes with the characters equipped as the various NPCs; Black Iron Tarkus, Seigmeyer/ward, the Set of Favor with the double Shotels, Havel's with the Dragon Tooth/shield, and on.

 

That way the models are already made and we just need to either get Steamforged to make the rules for the NPCs or we can brew them up ourselves.

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15 minutes ago, stargorger said:

Actually that brings up a really good point Slarg... do we know what the armor set expansion(s) will do? Are they just for alternate character models?

Right now, all we know is they are just alternate character models based around the armor.

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On Sunday, May 21, 2017 at 6:18 PM, stargorger said:

Actually that brings up a really good point Slarg... do we know what the armor set expansion(s) will do? Are they just for alternate character models?

My guess is we'll get the ten armour figures along with ten matching armour cards to be added to the treasure pile. Then I imagine the armour will have really high stat requirements, like 40 strength and 30 faith for the catarina armour or something of the like. I'd find it rather pointless to have ten different armour sets for characters with no real effect otherwise, but that's just me.

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4 hours ago, LoreFromAstora said:

My guess is we'll get the ten armour figures along with ten matching armour cards to be added to the treasure pile. Then I imagine the armour will have really high stat requirements, like 40 strength and 30 faith for the catarina armour or something of the like. I'd find it rather pointless to have ten different armour sets for characters with no real effect otherwise, but that's just me.

Yeah, I can only imagine that they will come with armor cards. Since they are all Dks1 armor sets, we will also in the future likely get at least 2 more armor expansions for dks2 and dks3. Maybe even a boss armor expansion. 

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Posted (edited)

During the campaign, or shortly after the campaign, I can not remember which, there was mention from one of the SFG guys in the comments that the armor expansion miniatures would be unarmed and doing gestures, I think the reason was that they didn't want to force certain weaponry on the miniature that the character is not likely to have. In contrast, our characters are equipped with their starting gear and decide when to not use it, but the gear is still connected to the mini. Giving Havel's armor the Dragon Tooth and Havel's shield would suggest that either A. it's included or B. That it belongs together no matter the character you play. I protested gesture miniatures directly, but the response was that they were just extra figures and collectibles that didn't need to be used if one didn't want to. I wish I had saved the comment/statement and sifting through 40-50k posts on KS is something I have no desire or time to do. So you can take this at face value or ignore it. And even if it was said, we don't know what the final result may be, they might have changed their mind on that.

Also, as response to the argument of outsiders directly getting a feel for Artorias thanks to the pose showing his broken body, that is a very valid and objective observation I had not thought of either. So I can fully accept it on those grounds. But I stand by my opinion that I am tired of that specific pose personally, but for newcomers' sake I can understand if that is the final choice, but being the final choice just because of zealous fans, that I can't agree on. Arguing more on this point is pointless cause I can't be more clear than what I've been and I will let people have what opinion they want.

But just for continued conversation's sake. Is the boulder important for Sif's miniature to sit on? My opinion is still no, and I can not say it has anything to show about Sif's character since it is not made in the Grave of Artorias' image, it's just a boulder. Oh and as a sidenote, a solution I could suggest that also fit the eccentricity of Solaire's praising, put a shield thrown to the side on the base and a sword pushed into the ground on the base. "Combat is over, praise the sun!" and just tosses his gear aside to do what Solaire is compulsed to do. That atleast would make it more.. understandable, maybe reasonable? Can't come up with a good word.

Edited by MushyBrains
grammar typo & added thoughts

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On 5/19/2017 at 3:58 PM, MushyBrains said:

This kind of discussion, and the way it's headed is why I more or less dropped the community and stopped posting here, on facebook and work on content. You have an opinion that goes against the majority and popular opinion and you get attitude or hate in return. It's the same in the Dark Souls community where you get some nice comments and attitude if you like Dark Souls 2 more than the other games.

In my experience, all fandoms have subsets of people who, to put it one way, go a little bit overboard and forget to be respectful. Unfortunately that's just how internet anonymity works. I implore you not to write off the thousands of respectful and intelligent fans in the community for the handful who take it too far.

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Well, they just released a picture of the model of Artorias.

They used the "iconic" pose, so I guess you will not be very happy with the model. I, on the other hand, really love the model and I'm very happy they used this pose :)

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1 hour ago, Ramzes222 said:

Well, they just released a picture of the model of Artorias.

They used the "iconic" pose, so I guess you will not be very happy with the model. I, on the other hand, really love the model and I'm very happy they used this pose :)

They did use the pose I really was hoping they wouldn't. But, I'm actually not unhappy, I think they did it justice. I guess this is where I admit I was wrong.

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On ‎14‎.‎07‎.‎2017 at 8:36 PM, Sir Orpheus said:

They did use the pose I really was hoping they wouldn't. But, I'm actually not unhappy, I think they did it justice. I guess this is where I admit I was wrong.

I like that they don't just have him standing around, but moving slighty, like he's stalking around the player, waiting for his chance to strike.

 

But I do feel like...the blade seems a bit too long.

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This relates back to the Ironclad, Alonne and even the Dancer pose complaints.

My thoughts then remain the same as they are now. I am personally fine with whatever pose SFG decides to go with. So long as the pose makes the model look good and reflects the character depicted I don't have a complaint. Having Artorias in his iconic pose meets all of these requirements. He is instantly recognisable and the pose captures the defeated glory that *is* Artorias the man. A more dynamic or active pose would risk diluting how Artorias is communicated to the onlooker.

Good pose design tells a story. In a miniatures board game it is one of the primary ways in which the character, the miniature represents, is communicated. This is why having Alonne static, while the Ironclad charges, is such a sticking point. In both cases the pose miss communicates the character. Alonne is a brilliant warrior, with beautiful flowing attacks; the Ironclad are lumbering behemoths, stoically plodding ever onwards.

Both Artorias and Solaire are represented well by their poses. Artorias is broken and corrupted, his pose sees him slouched forward, with one arm limp. Anyone seeing that pose can instantly recognise that. Solaire is campy and flamboyant, just like the man. Sif, stands atop her rocky pedestal, bringing to mind the lone wolf that she is.

The Dancer is desperate for the loo...

So long as the poses chosen reflect the character assigned for them, we are better off spending our energies elsewhere than focusing on individual points like this. Sometimes good enough is good enough. :)

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