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Vengence 2017 - Stats

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I've played enough games of Alchs that didn't feature Harry that I'm not certain it's him, or at the very least Midas and Vitriol are bigger contributors to the problem than Harry is.

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1 hour ago, Siberys said:

I've played enough games of Alchs that didn't feature Harry that I'm not certain it's him, or at the very least Midas and Vitriol are bigger contributors to the problem than Harry is.

I think oKat is a huge issue too.  The problem is that they have access to numerous players who are arguably in the top 5. And I mean players not captains.  It also helps that Midas is quite good.  

Virtiol is the best striker and possibly best overall player in Guild Ball.  Her goal threat is insane, her def states are above average, and she is actually capable of applying some reliable damage.  Now someone in the game has to be the best, and I'm not trying to argue for a nerf, but the truth is she's really good. 

oKat is a serious beast.  One of the few brawler 40mm with a 2/4 inf stat.  He has a functional 8 tac on 6 columns, some situationally useful ball skills, and an absolutely beastly number of boxes.  Oh he also moves fairly quick and debuffs your opponents.  His new incarnation is possibly a Top 5 player, definitely a top three 40mm player if not just the outright best.   

Harry is over-tuned for sure as is evident by that fact that he's almost universally seen as the best Union option available.  That's not what makes him good, but its a product of how good he is.  2" reach, momentous dmg and pushes, high tac, decent mov, free mp generation, and 2 situationally useful plays means that he rarely has nothing meaningful to contribute in a turn.  

Oh and that final slot in alchs can also be filled by the best goalie in the game.  

The reason alchemists are strong is because each individual player in that lineup is a star at their position.  The players are so good at their jobs that the Midas team is capable of winning 3-0, 2-2, or even 1-4 in a pinch.  I don't want to comment on what I think needs to be nerfed to magically fix the entire guild, but certainly I feel like their strength is not tied to one model, but rather is product of having that many good players on one team.  

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17 hours ago, FearLord said:

I think Alchemists definitely seem to be doing well, although they're clearly not unstoppable.

Hunters I think people should give a little longer to. While the results at Vengeance weren't great, it's a pretty small sample size - if you look at the scores since The Heralds were released on BO (currently missing the Vengeance results) you can see that over this small sample, they're showing a dramatic improvement to a 50% win rate.

That improvement may not bear out (pun intended) but currently, it looks like they're actually running quite close to what you'd probably expect / want a team to run at over the last month. More results are needed to see if that's just people not knowing what they do or lots of people trying the new shiny or whatever, but it needs a bit of a bedding in period...

 

Agree with this. If you isolate the month post Winters of the herald moon release Hunters look to be in a solid spot. Chris makes good points about people still adjusting to Skatha which is fair also. I agree with both that the ream really needs a little more time post WOTHM release to really see where they sit. 

In regards to Alchemists I agree it's much more of a team problem, then it is a Midas problem. Midas facilitates a lot, he's hard to kill, he scores like a monster, can enable killy players to kill and brings a bunch of momentum each turn. He is probably above the curve, but the dream team of Midas, Naja, Compound, Vitriol, oKat & Harry as a cohesive unit feel like the best 6 players you can physically play. 

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1 hour ago, RTOAHB said:

 

Agree with this. If you isolate the month post Winters of the herald moon release Hunters look to be in a solid spot. Chris makes good points about people still adjusting to Skatha which is fair also. I agree with both that the ream really needs a little more time post WOTHM release to really see where they sit. 

In regards to Alchemists I agree it's much more of a team problem, then it is a Midas problem. Midas facilitates a lot, he's hard to kill, he scores like a monster, can enable killy players to kill and brings a bunch of momentum each turn. He is probably above the curve, but the dream team of Midas, Naja, Compound, Vitriol, oKat & Harry as a cohesive unit feel like the best 6 players you can physically play. 

The main thing is that they have probably the best combination of 4 players (Midas, Vitriol, Harry and oKat) in the game. And probably one of the best niche players in Compound of the current meta. The gap with the rest of the Alchemist players is pretty big, but with those 5 players you can basically cover all your match ups. So nerfing one (or more) of those players doesn't really solve anything. Either they fall behind the curve or it isn't enough. But it won't really make them more diverse. 

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42 minutes ago, HuggyTheBear said:

The main thing is that they have probably the best combination of 4 players (Midas, Vitriol, Harry and oKat) in the game. And probably one of the best niche players in Compound of the current meta. The gap with the rest of the Alchemist players is pretty big, but with those 5 players you can basically cover all your match ups. So nerfing one (or more) of those players doesn't really solve anything. Either they fall behind the curve or it isn't enough. But it won't really make them more diverse. 

One interesting stat about the tournament in consideration would be how many times a certain player was used (kind like variety score). I guess it would be to much for this data tho.

 

I wander if tournament would have more small prizes - typical 3 for 1,2,3 place and additional prizes for best team (so highest ranked brewer, highest ranked hunter and so on) maybe this would nudge more competitive players into non competitive teams in order to get some limited not available items ? (like guild seal of excellence or something ?)

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35 minutes ago, RTOAHB said:

Vengeance has prizes for best in guild.

Apparently not cool enough to convince best players to use less popular guilds. This could only be solved by unique items that are not available for retail. And for that to happen steam forged would have to design and produce them.

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I don't understand that point though. I can still play Alchemists and win best in guild for that limited edition model? Are you proposing that only some guilds have best in guilds, or the less popular guilds have better prizes? 

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11 minutes ago, Seryjniak said:

Apparently not cool enough to convince best players to use less popular guilds. This could only be solved by unique items that are not available for retail. And for that to happen steam forged would have to design and produce them.

Define best- the following have all been using Hunters recently:

Daniel Harwood - currently 4th in the world on Black Orifice used them at a 32 man tournament the week before Vengeance.

Chris Tamplin 5th in the world used them at Vengeance

Henry Clark (me) 7th in the world - I wasn't at Vengeance but used them in my last tournament 

Sherwin 12th in the world used them at Vengeance

I think plenty of good players are interested in using them - they are hard to use, but I'm enjoying the challenge and I think after one to two more events I think I'll be getting some very solid results with them...

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7 minutes ago, RTOAHB said:

I don't understand that point though. I can still play Alchemists and win best in guild for that limited edition model? Are you proposing that only some guilds have best in guilds, or the less popular guilds have better prizes? 

Prize is different and guild specific - like little alchemist metal coin or something like that. So in order to get a full set you would have to finish best in guild with all guild eventually. This would provide a challenge and lessen the weight of the best guilds. You win best Alchemist - you get alchemist prize - you win best Brewers you win Brewer coin (or some other nice token).

Of course I can be wrong and the number of engineers and alchemist at the top is just coincidence. And with Daniel Harwood, Chris Tamplin, Henry Clark, Sherwin playing hunters - we will have in some time good example how to win tournaments like vengeance with them. But if that would not be the case after some future tournaments the little exclusive prizes for guild would go a long way to keep tournament a varied affair (with low cost of teams in guild ball the temptation to just go with the best current team is great).

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Couldn't agree with Henry more. I think another has to be said about the nature of the game - I turned up Vengeance with Engineers, Dan turned up with fish. The day before I nearly coined flip into playing Alchemists or Fish, Dan went with morts. I spoke to a loooot of people who coined fliped and changed there team last minute. 

 

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19 minutes ago, Seryjniak said:

Prize is different and guild specific - like little alchemist metal coin or something like that. So in order to get a full set you would have to finish best in guild with all guild eventually. This would provide a challenge and lessen the weight of the best guilds. You win best Alchemist - you get alchemist prize - you win best Brewers you win Brewer coin (or some other nice token).

Of course I can be wrong and the number of engineers and alchemist at the top is just coincidence. And with Daniel Harwood, Chris Tamplin, Henry Clark, Sherwin playing hunters - we will have in some time good example how to win tournaments like vengeance with them. But if that would not be the case after some future tournaments the little exclusive prizes for guild would go a long way to keep tournament a varied affair (with low cost of teams in guild ball the temptation to just go with the best current team is great).

Something cool and collectible might encourage people to play with different Guilds I suppose for a chance to complete a set, but I do find Guild Ball players chop and change a bit more than in other games possibly - low model count means a lot of serious players have more than one Guild and they like to mix things up a bit.

I'd like to see how the Hunters bed in following the new models - it would definitely be nice to see them getting some wins on the board.

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