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Organised Play Document Update 9/5/17

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4 minutes ago, MilitaryCoo said:

For some teams, maybe.  Some teams rely more on their captain to deal with certain teams effectively.

 

I might add PV to my 10, but I'm so stuck on Ballista I doubt she'd ever see the table.

Off Topic: WHHHAAATAATTATT?? I look at PV and play against her and think - bloody hell she is bonkers good. I can see B's power (that playbook upgrade feels too much) but PV being the only captain to get Furious and a 6 INF stack and double Tooled Up seems legit?? Anyway, ignore me :)

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6 minutes ago, MilitaryCoo said:

For some teams, maybe.  Some teams rely more on their captain to deal with certain teams effectively.

Alchemists potentially being a case in point.

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Just now, EpicChris said:

Off Topic: WHHHAAATAATTATT?? I look at PV and play against her and think - bloody hell she is bonkers good. I can see B's power (that playbook upgrade feels too much) but PV being the only captain to get Furious and a 6 INF stack and double Tooled Up seems legit?? Anyway, ignore me :)

If you want doubled tooled up, you only get to have 5 inf with your Furious. :(

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1 minute ago, Gauntlet said:

If you want doubled tooled up, you only get to have 5 inf with your Furious. :(

As if that can even be considered a downside.

Dealing 4 damage to yourself at the end of the activation is almost enough of a penalty.

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On Topic: I do think a case is there for Captain A is good against Guild B, but I also feel like a lot of captains kinda wanted to start with the ball. I will be interested to see how this affects Union - will people blindly pick sBrisket or go for safe Rage (or Blacky depending on your definition of 'safe'). It might make Fish think a little more, but really the problem with Fish was always - both captains are silly good and the team around them could be identical.

I don't think it solves things - I actually think it makes them worse. Before you could pick your team having trained and played the scenario of kicking into Guild B or receiving from Guild A. Now it's random - so you can't test it or train for it - it actually takes away skill from the game. It's pretty bad. You can't have an Offensive Drive team or a Defensive Drive team. And that's literally half of the interest in American Football (and yes we are playing soccer but it has a lot more similarities to American Football).

Off Topic: Oh No! Poor PV only gets a charge and 5 attacks at +2 DMG...how will she cope at removing every single player in the game from the table?? :)

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I like everything here apart from choosing your Captain before the kick off roll - that's a big hit to some teams and not to others I think...

Farmers only have Thresher as a decent kick off model really, so that feels like it hurts...

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1 minute ago, EpicChris said:

On Topic: I do think a case is there for Captain A is good against Guild B, but I also feel like a lot of captains kinda wanted to start with the ball. I will be interested to see how this affects Union - will people blindly pick sBrisket or go for safe Rage (or Blacky depending on your definition of 'safe'). It might make Fish think a little more, but really the problem with Fish was always - both captains are silly good and the team around them could be identical.

I don't think it solves things - I actually think it makes them worse. Before you could pick your team having trained and played the scenario of kicking into Guild B or receiving from Guild A. Now it's random - so you can't test it or train for it - it actually takes away skill from the game. It's pretty bad. You can't have an Offensive Drive team or a Defensive Drive team. And that's literally half of the interest in American Football (and yes we are playing soccer but it has a lot more similarities to American Football).

Off Topic: Oh No! Poor PV only gets a charge and 5 attacks at +2 DMG...how will she cope at removing every single player in the game from the table?? :)

To be fair, you can still build the rest of your team to he offensive or defensive - it just means you have to either gamble on a Captain being good with either, or play the Captain you would have kicked with...

Seasoned Brisket can still have Mist exerting kick off pressure, so I don't think she massively loves receiving or anything... it's teams that rely on using the Captain as kicker that will be hurt the most - Farmers, Hunters, Fishermen (like to kick with Shark, but have other options), Butchers (although Fillet has been king of the hill for a while now), Morticians off the top of my head, possibly Masons (I like to kick with Hammer)...

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My initial reaction....and this may be wrong as i havent tried it and its a gut reaction is:

I like some of the changes and not the others.

Sos, 10 man and round time all good.

Captain and mascot pick simultaneous befor knowing if youre kicking or receiving is bad.

Two thoughts for this - there is now almost no point in choosing to kick, this previously gave you the edge in picking and whilst youd still pick last this has much less impact for a player over a captain. I often chose to kick with masons for this reason and now most likely wont.

Secondly some captains vs other captains are less favorable match ups  (considering fish and playing against them with masons). This then becomes more rock/paper which is something i hate in games as its luck rather than skill. Also means im less likely to play 2 captains with masons and focus on honour and flexibility.....where previously i could play hammer into some match ups.

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It turns the clock back. In Season 2 we had this choice and we basically made it on the opposing team. But as the game has developed I've found the opposing team less relevant than who is kicking and receiving. Being opposite Shark kicking is completely different to watching Shark receiving. I built my team accordingly. Now I have to be safe. I think it's a step back - it doesn't solve anything. 

Why didn't they just make picking Captain first after roll off? 

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1 hour ago, Slothrop said:

I guess since that appears to also be in the OPD it must have been intentional. I'd like to see reasoning for this, there was a lot of captain choice that went down to kicking or receiving for some teams and being subject to a random roll seems unfair for those teams. Would personally prefer if steps #2 and #3 were swapped.

I'd also be really interested to hear the reasoning behind this. Why did SF feel revealing captain last was a problem? There is a whole lot more strategy behind looking at the non-caps and anticipating picks than "derp, kicking captain, better take <insert ball control/goalie here>". I feel more hurt by the loss of the captain last strategy than the kicking/receiving choice.

Potential Rant:

My gut reaction is this punishes Brisket (and Skatha if viable) heavily while having almost zero impact against Midas. It could effectively remove Shark from the Meta. The difference is Brisket and Shark have a divergently different game plan from their other captain choice. Midas, while individually different than Smoke, has a much more similar overall plan. A lot of times you just play Midas and don't care who they drop as the flexibility is in your team comp, not your captain. It hurts Shark more than Brisket because at least Brisket can play for a fairly consistent 2-2 game because of her supporting cast of murderous goons.

Lets look at an example: Engineers vs Fish.

Under the old scheme if I hold my captain until last, even if I ultimately plan to use Shark, the opponent still has to respect the fact I have a reasonable beat um up option. Conversely, even if I play to drop Corsair, they still have to respect the most well rounded/consistent striker in the game. Choices like Compound, Colossus, and Velocity are a lot stronger against one or the other. Now that they see the captain first... the draft is a cinch. You see Shark and you go for ball control. You see Corsair and you drop the easier TO models. The team flexibility is IN THE CAPTAIN.

Basically, if you opt to play a heavily skewed strategy, it is much easier to be countered via the draft. Furthermore, the 10th model allows for a lot of rosters to explore goalie options they may have not considered in the past.

Anywho, if you hate getting netted, but don't mind Midas, I guess this change is for you.

#WelcomeBackPegLeg #PrayersForEisnorans #QQcrymoreTehlon

 

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I don't see the argument that it punishes Skatha. I would rather have Skatha over Theron in so far every circumstance; she's better at receiving, she's better at kicking, and she's better against every team I've so far played her into than Theron was.

If anything the 10 man roster change means Theron might make his way back onto my tournament roster in the off chance that I want to play him again.

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Interesting. See I don't think it changes the Fish equation. Shark plays offence or defence and ball control or no he's gonna do Shark. Where as, your defensive options are now much more limited. The captain might be your main defence.

Basically, as I predicted about the Union change, I think this change will lead to less variety in lineups because you just can't risk it with some captains. I doubt we will ever see Hammer or Smoke again. Calling it now. 

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If kicking or receiving is so important that it completely determines the viability of any significant percentage of the captains, then that needs some substantial adjustments on its own.

Also, lets be honest; you weren't really seeing Hammer before this change either. ;)

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3 minutes ago, Khift said:

I don't see the argument that it punishes Skatha. I would rather have Skatha over Theron in so far every circumstance; she's better at receiving, she's better at kicking, and she's better against every team I've so far played her into than Theron was.

If anything the 10 man roster change means Theron might make his way back onto my tournament roster in the off chance that I want to play him again.

Fair enough. I don't have enough personal experience with her to make a determination.

Thought experiment: Under the old scheme, had you seen an engineer drop "Compound, Velocity 1, Colossus, Locus" would you still go Skatha?

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I am not the type of person to write a book about these changes but I would like to put in my two cents.  The picking of Captain and Mascot to me is a terrible decision.  In the long run I believe this will lead to everyone picking the "safe" option and will make the game more vanilla than before.  Who really gives a damn about picking the mascot blindly?  In what way does picking a Mascot during a draft influence much of anything ?  It's a very poor decision and has made me ponder how much more time and finances I will invest in competitive play. 

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4 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

Interesting. See I don't think it changes the Fish equation. Shark plays offence or defence and ball control or no he's gonna do Shark. Where as, your defensive options are now much more limited. The captain might be your main defence.

Basically, as I predicted about the Union change, I think this change will lead to less variety in lineups because you just can't risk it with some captains. I doubt we will ever see Hammer or Smoke again. Calling it now. 

It's not about how he plays, so much as I feel like he's easy to counter with correct draft choices. Should you have been able to pick last, the opponent has to respect/hedge against the other option.

But yes. Overall I agree. Less diversity.

 

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4 minutes ago, tehlon said:

Fair enough. I don't have enough personal experience with her to make a determination.

Thought experiment: Under the old scheme, had you seen an engineer drop "Compound, Velocity 1, Colossus, Locus" would you still go Skatha?

I have not played her into a goalie yet, so I can't much say about that. I can say that the other three you listed don't bother her much at all though.

A lot of people are under the misunderstanding that Skatha is a ball captain; she's not, not really. I find her as more akin to a supporty version of Honor -- she's a model that can score, and likely will at some point in the match, but her primary role is enabling the other parts of your Hunter team to take models out even more effectively.

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While the Mascot pick is a joke (why SFG don't you make the Mascots a free roster choice - then we get some variety - I mean who is taking 2 Mascots right now???). The captain choice goes back to Guild based. And that's pretty boring, especially for teams with either captains weak when kick/receive or those with no clear guild differences. 

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39 minutes ago, FearLord said:

I like everything here apart from choosing your Captain before the kick off roll - that's a big hit to some teams and not to others I think...

Farmers only have Thresher as a decent kick off model really, so that feels like it hurts...

Windle or Tater also make excellent kick off models....

 

28 minutes ago, Stephen78 said:

Two thoughts for this - there is now almost no point in choosing to kick, this previously gave you the edge in picking and whilst youd still pick last this has much less impact for a player over a captain. I often chose to kick with masons for this reason and now most likely wont.

 

I basically always kick off when I play fish... these changes don't alter that at all.  Just because you don't see the reason to kick, doesn't mean there isn't one ;)

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3 minutes ago, tehlon said:

But yes. Overall I agree. Less diversity.

Depends on what kind of diversity.  I will happily trade roster diversity for team diversity.

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2 minutes ago, Isante said:

Windle or Tater also make excellent kick off models....

 

That's a joke, right?  What kind of kick off threat is a 3" jog.  Buckwheat is a better kick off threat thanks Windle.

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Just now, MechMage said:

That's a joke, right?  What kind of kick off threat is a 3" jog.  Buckwheat is a better kick off threat thanks Windle.

Moving Windle 3'' further up the board allowing him to have a threat of 15'' T1 without charging is pretty good... Unless you think 6 tooled up attacks t1 is bad...

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