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Ragnara

Tiered Treasure Decks

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Alright, since this is going to get quite long, I'm gonna start a new thread on the whole thing.

Basically this is my idea about bringing some semblance of balance to the game, without making it too easy. Trying to find a nice inbetween so to speak.

The gist of it is: You got different decks of treasure cards for each boss level you face in the campaign.

The first stack contains the most basic treasures, I call it the Basic Loot and one specific treasure from the participating characters.

After you defeat the mini boss you advance per usual, but put the Basic Loot aside, it will no longer be used. Do fish any ember or titanite shard you haven't yet found out of it and shuffle them in the second plie of cards, the Advanced Loot. This stack contain the rest of the regular treasures both from the common set and from the characters.

Now on to the second mini boss. After you defeat him, again discard the remainders of the Advanced Loot (grabbing those unused embers and shards again) and create the Legendary Deck from all the legendary treasure cards and all of the transposed treasures from the involved characters.

 

What I'm trying to accomplish is less need to grind and farm as you should be able to use most any of the found treasures during the encounters with little leveling needed.

 

When compiling the different stacks I tried to stick to a simple formula though I pulled some liberties here and there.

5919f63cac969_DarkSoulsTiersandStuff.thumb.png.1be50c27eed9b8232aafabcff275519b.png

 

This is all a work in progress of course, so feel free to chime in.

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When you defeat the mini-boss, you propose getting rid of the Starter deck. Do you think there would be any benefit in instead using this deck as available (visible) Store Inventory with a Soul Cost to purchase each item? Or would this be a danger to game balance even though they are starter level items?

 

I can't speak knowledgeably about balance as I still don't have the game to experiment with.

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2 minutes ago, Ashraam said:

When you defeat the mini-boss, you propose getting rid of the Starter deck. Do you think there would be any benefit in instead using this deck as available (visible) Store Inventory with a Soul Cost to purchase each item? Or would this be a danger to game balance even though they are starter level items?

 

I can't speak knowledgeably about balance as I still don't have the game to experiment with.

Well there might be. My intention is a faster game. You grab some basic treasures, level up a bit, maaaybe do a second round to farm and grind and then head off to the mini boss.

So you don't go out with a specific buidl in mind, you take what you can get and adjust yourself accordingly. Next stop should be the (hopefully) more advanced treasures, so there's really no need to hold onto the other stuff.

 

That is my train of thought at least.

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Unfortunately, I don't feel like the idea of separated decks is good.

One part of fun and difficulty of the game is that, you usually have to make use of what you get. If you separate the deck into three different levels of decks, I can see player becomes more restricted on what they are gonna draw, which means, you will eventually building your characters the same way. 

Hold up don't misunderstand me, I agree that the game often requires too much grinding for a player to move on as they draw useless items over and over again.

However, you should instead think about how to qualify each draw to make sure the spent souls worth something. For example, you pay souls and choose 1 from 2 or 3, the unchosens will go directly to the bottom of the deck, and each time you beat a boss, you have to shuffle the deck while you add in better gears, so that the draw will be unlikely  repeatitive and worthy.

 

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3 minutes ago, Diamond Souls said:

Unfortunately, I don't feel like the idea of separated decks is good.

One part of fun and difficulty of the game is that, you usually have to make use of what you get. If you separate the deck into three different levels of decks, I can see player becomes more restricted on what they are gonna draw, which means, you will eventually building your characters the same way. 

Hold up don't misunderstand me, I agree that the game often requires too much grinding for a player to move on as they draw useless items over and over again.

However, you should instead think about how to qualify each draw to make sure the spent souls worth something. For example, you pay souls and choose 1 from 2 or 3, the unchosens will go directly to the bottom of the deck, and each time you beat a boss, you have to shuffle the deck while you add in better gears, so that the draw will be unlikely  repeatitive and worthy.

 

I've been shying away from the idea of separate decks as well. I proposed the "2 souls for 3 cards, choose one and place the others on the bottom of the deck" a while back, so it seems like we have similar ideas.

Another thought I've had it to "stack" the deck. Build the deck as stated in the rules, but leave out low level items. Once the deck is built, shuffle the low level items into the top half of the deck. So you still have some luck in drawing more powerful items, but there are for certain usable items seeded in the early game draws as well.

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3 minutes ago, Diamond Souls said:

Unfortunately, I don't feel like the idea of separated decks is good.

One part of fun and difficulty of the game is that, you usually have to make use of what you get. If you separate the deck into three different levels of decks, I can see player becomes more restricted on what they are gonna draw, which means, you will eventually building your characters the same way. 

Hold up don't misunderstand me, I agree that the game often requires too much grinding for a player to move on as they draw useless items over and over again.

However, you should instead think about how to qualify each draw to make sure the spent souls worth something. For example, you pay souls and choose 1 from 2 or 3, the unchosens will go directly to the bottom of the deck, and each time you beat a boss, you have to shuffle the deck while you add in better gears, so that the draw will unlikely repeatitive and worthy.

 

Indeed you are more restricted, but that kinda is the point.

I still have to field test this play style, maybe it sucks. But for now, I want the players to immedietly hop onto a weapon start using it, without having to go through an encounter more than twice or so.

In seperating the decks, you will most definitely get a weapon or armour you can use with just spending two or four souls max (though luck still plays a part).

You grab some treasures, level up, beat the boss, onto the next area.

That is the plan at least.

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1 hour ago, Ashraam said:

 

I can't speak knowledgeably about balance as I still don't have the game to experiment with.

Hope you get yours, soon, mate :(

 

1 hour ago, Diamond Souls said:

One part of fun and difficulty of the game is that, you usually have to make use of what you get. If you separate the deck into three different levels of decks, I can see player becomes more restricted on what they are gonna draw, which means, you will eventually building your characters the same way. 

I've been experimenting with a 2 tiered deck so far. Mostly it removes upgrades and certain items that cost everyone 12 or more souls to level into (some items 20 souls for a class) and charges you double to draw from that deck, to make up for the speeding up of the usable loot accessibility, somewhat.

 

 The new starter deck still has enough RNG, with ~26 of the 82 cards in the deck removed, there's still a LOT of options open to you, except your first draws will not be as unusable unless you heavily grind prior to the mini boss, or require more grinding to get the lower level stuff.

 

With +50 cards in the deck, you're still more tempted to level into the first things you draw and use those items, they're just less likely to cost you 20 souls to do so (of course, different t classes have different levelling costs to equip stuff!)

The last game I played my warrior was running around with a shield, force and fireball since he could reasonably level into using these. The knight ended up with a Great Mace (a tier 2 deck item) whereas the herald was cracking skulls with the morning star, and I don't believe those weapons were particularly optimal, but they got the job done for us whilst providing a little less opportunity for bad RNG to stall us beating the mini boss.

I'd've liked to have continued that game, but I was teaching new people and it was getting late. I think the deck did a pretty good demonstration of "using what you get" though.

 

Edit: I also Heavily recommend keeping upgrades separate until you get gear that can be upgraded. It doesn't feel good to draw an upgrade when your gear can't even have it applied. Then its not even an issue with levelling, you just NEED more loot.

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9 hours ago, Danny said:

Edit: I also Heavily recommend keeping upgrades separate until you get gear that can be upgraded. It doesn't feel good to draw an upgrade when your gear can't even have it applied. Then its not even an issue with levelling, you just NEED more loot.

I've looked at your sheet more closely and looked at the one presented on BGG. When fiddling around with your statistics and seeing how they did the tiers, I come to almost the same results as my version, so I think that's a positive sign. The composite bow for example I put in the advanded deck just because I think such a long range weapon would seem a bit too strong for the first few encounters (of course I may be wrong).

 

But upgrades are a tough pickle. Rings not so much, since there aren't really that many (I do consider moving the cloranthy ring to the advanced deck), but yes, having all these gems with no weapons to upgrade them with, is not preferable. Out of all the offensive items in the starter deck, only four are upgradeable, so there's a lot of room for failure.

Gotte think of a solution. Maybe let a player buy a gem he fulfills the stat requirements for from André for an increased cost. Still probably gonna at least keep the titanite shards in the deck as proposed above.

 

On another note, I'm probably gonna include the increased soul drops for the different levels of encounters too. (2 souls for Level 1, 3 souls for Level 2, 4 souls for Level 3)

 

Ugh, I wanna go home and plaaaay.

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Alright. This is the current list. I played the first part of the DS 1 campaign and from just that I seem to quite like this.

I spent one spark to run through the encounters again, grabbed just enough loot so I got some variety, leveled a few stats and went on to the gargoyles.

There is no need to keep on farming because I know that everything else I may find is just different stuff, but nothing exponentially more powerful (only reason might be embers and shards, but those will carry over into the advanced loot pile).

I've also increased the amount of souls for the regular encounters as well as the boss fights, since in the campaign you will face less encounters and have to pay more souls for items and level ups.

Plus I consider not allowing to buy sparks with souls. Once spent you can only get one back by defeating a boss.

Dark Souls Tiers and Stuff.png

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Do you think this could be tweaked for one shot games? I'm interested in the idea of a tiered deck, either separate (separate tiers with the flag cards), or stacked like pandemic. But in a single run there'd only need to be two tiers. Or does the game not need this type of adjustment for single runs? 

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8 minutes ago, Joplick said:

Do you think this could be tweaked for one shot games? I'm interested in the idea of a tiered deck, either separate (separate tiers with the flag cards), or stacked like pandemic. But in a single run there'd only need to be two tiers. Or does the game not need this type of adjustment for single runs? 

I guess you could shuffle the decks around a bit, put some of the barely advanced loot into the basic pile and put the legendaries into the advanced pile (or some of them at least, pick 5, etc.)

On the other hand, in a regular game it's easier to level up and buy treasure so it might not even be that neccessary. But I'd have to try it out.

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1 hour ago, Ragnara said:

Another update in the OP.

Might even be the final version, I'm quite happy with it.

Nice. I like the way you've organized the lists.

What are you considering Basic Character Loot vs Advanced, since Transposed goes into the Legendary deck?

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12 minutes ago, Ashraam said:

Nice. I like the way you've organized the lists.

What are you considering Basic Character Loot vs Advanced, since Transposed goes into the Legendary deck?

For the current itteration I looked at the lowest and highest stats for a certain tier and placed the equipment accordingly.

So one weapon goes into Tier 1: Min, another in Tier 2: Max, etc.

Some had to go in between two lines because they hit the max requirement in one tier and the min in the another one and so on.

Then I took the left bulk and turned that into the Basic Loot stack and the other half turned into the Advanced Loot stack.

The only card I had to move to another deck out of convenience was the Composite Bow. He would fall into the Basic Loot stack, but that would leave the assassin with two Basic treasures while the others only have one. So I moved it to the Advanced Loot stack.

 

And the green treasures go into the Basic Loot stack. The yellow ones into the Advanced and the orange ones intp the Legendary.

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It's been a while, but the Spiel got me a bit excited again and so I decided to drop back in for another itteration of my tiered decks. Hooray!

This time around, I decided to drop the campain system and am such now only using two decks. Basic and Advanded.

The table shows which piece of treasure goes into which deck. Titanite Shards and Embers that haven't been found are still being carried over into the Advanced Deck after defeating the Miniboss, everything else is lost.

DarkSoulsLoot.thumb.png.6fe475c3bc9e29d7b9e3c5e6507c7700.png

 

Another house rule is still the increased amout of souls gained from encounters. Level 1 grants 1 souls, level 2 grants 2 souls, level 3 grants 3 souls.

 

And thirdly, I decided that every beat encounter will be replaced with a new one after a rest (or defeat). So if you die to a level 2 encounter, the two level 1 encounters before recieve new encounter cards. I decided on this because in my eyes, every encounter is a little puzzle that you have to solve. And once you manage to solve that puzzle, it offers no real challenge when you have to revisit it. So it was, either skip it entirely or draw a new encounter card. And since a new encounter card means playing more game and the increased chance of finding another treasure chest, I opted for that. And of course, for an encounter to be replaced, you have to have beat it once, so those you died to you still have to face again and again until you manage to find a way to beat them.

 

Thats it so far.

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The way I handle the treasure deck is pretty simple, and for the most part works great for my games -- three decks; deck 1: weapons/armor, deck 2: rings/upgrades, deck 3: spells. Deck 1 costs one soul per card, deck 2 costs two, and deck 3 costs three.

The thought process behind mine is that while RNG is a thing in the video game, you always have access to a store where you can simply buy simple items without any guesswork. This method takes the best of both, where you at least are guaranteed the type of item you want, but still have to obey RNG without it being completely unbearable (with the upgrades/rings/spells removed, the main deck is effectively halved).

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On 11/2/2018 at 2:42 AM, Cfighter said:

The way I handle the treasure deck is pretty simple, and for the most part works great for my games -- three decks; deck 1: weapons/armor, deck 2: rings/upgrades, deck 3: spells. Deck 1 costs one soul per card, deck 2 costs two, and deck 3 costs three.

The thought process behind mine is that while RNG is a thing in the video game, you always have access to a store where you can simply buy simple items without any guesswork. This method takes the best of both, where you at least are guaranteed the type of item you want, but still have to obey RNG without it being completely unbearable (with the upgrades/rings/spells removed, the main deck is effectively halved).

How do treasure chests work in your games? Do you just pick one of the decks to draw from or something else?

And although I do like the idea of having some sort of organized shop system, I'm not sure I like having to spend a lot of souls on buying items.

My first impression is, that this would increase the amount of grinding one would need to do to properly level up and grab a bunch of loot.

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On 11/6/2018 at 1:13 PM, Ragnara said:

How do treasure chests work in your games? Do you just pick one of the decks to draw from or something else?

And although I do like the idea of having some sort of organized shop system, I'm not sure I like having to spend a lot of souls on buying items.

My first impression is, that this would increase the amount of grinding one would need to do to properly level up and grab a bunch of loot.

For treasure chests, we either take 2 cards from deck 1 (weapons/armor) or 1 card from either of the other 2 decks.

And yeah, at face value it definitely seems like you'd need to grind far more than usual to buy cards in this method. But when put into practice, it actually evens out with the official method quite nicely -- with one large deck cards are 1 soul each, but if you're searching for a new weapon then you'll have to grind through the entire deck until you not only find an actual weapon card, but a weapon card you can realistically build toward. With this three deck method you don't have to rely on RNJesus if you know what type of card you want, but you'll still have to filter through the deck(s) to find a card you can realistically wield.

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