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EpicChris

For Fun: Tweaking the Hunters

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Azrealthedark's post prompted me to start this FOR FUN Hunters tweaking thread I've been mulling for a while. We all have different ideas about what needs to happen here and I'm sure we'll all talk at cross purposes! :) But this is all for us Hunters to spit ball around the camp fire about 'what we would do if'. I'm no play tester and I'm sure my ideas would break the game but I'll propose my ideas and you guys/gals take it from there! 

Remember - FOR FUN. I doubt SFG will listen to a shout in the Hunters forum but keep it positive and light hearted rather than maudlin.

Now, for me, I would start by looking at what I think doesn't work at the moment.

1. Theron's playbook: Theron's playbook is a mess - it seems to be trying to do everything (<<, >>, KD, DMG) but for model which is our bruiser captain (if Skatha is our footballer), his DMG output is terrible. Yes he puts Snared on - but many captains put KD out easily which works out the same. His personal combat threat is basically 2 DMG because his 3 is on 6 which with a TAC 6 model is very unlikely to come off (ARM alone makes it impossible unless you reduce their DEF below 2) and it requires every single dice comes up a success! I mean even Ballista has a 4!

Resolution: Replace the 2 in Col3 with 2<, move the KD to col4 replacing the 2<, replace the KD in col5 with a MOM 3. Now Theron can try to swing for Snared, KD and DMG. Still not super likely - 5 successes with TAC 6 isn't great and requires a lot of INF. But it gives him options. 

Would like to have: This is wish fulfillment but I wish Theron had 2" melee. The team is seriously punished by lack of 2" and it would differentiate him from Skatha. 

2. Theron's traits: Ok, forest sight had to go for NPE reasons (apparently - still not convinced worse things aren't in the game) but how about giving him Light Footed - at the moment he literally creates forests he can't walk through!

3. Zarola's Playbook: OMG this might be the worst playbook in the game. What is her point in melee? At the moment she is Midnight Offering bot only. Her playbook literally does nothing with TAC 4 and < on 1 and > on 2. Which might work for a striker but she has a 2/6 Kick! She just isn't worth taking except for MO (and yes MO is good, mainly on Turn 1, after that is becomes much more situational) and that's not good enough. Her background screams Feral hunter. I mean the model has a huge sword for goodness sake!

Resolution: TAC 5, Vindictive (Human), Crucial Artery, change playbook to: MOM 1 on col 1, 2 on col 2 (as well as the push), MOM 2 on 3, add GB to col4. Make Chain Bolas a GB/2 Cost CP.

Now she has a viable combat purpose beyond hiding at the back. Also makes Linked actually worthwhile!

4. Egret's Snap Fire. Urrgh. I hate this play. It was bad on Salvo and it's still bad. It's too feast/famine and still has issues with Tough Hide etc and its range makes no sense on a model with Flurry - having different range on plays is a bad idea design wise. And Hunters can't afford to waste INF on this. 

Resolution: Remove Snap Fire. Replace with 'Poison Sting, RNG 8", CST 1. Target model suffers 1 Condition DMG'. Give Egret the Pumped trait.

5. Hearne1: Hearne1 is actually ok, but he has sort of been sidelined by Hearne2 with little to benefit from over his newer version.

Resolution: Hearne1 gains Stoic and Sturdy. Hunters are one of the few teams with no access to either Stoic or Sturdy which makes them counter attack bait. Giving Hearne1 both allows him to deliver his punch. He still has his 1/3 INF cost and other drawbacks. But now he offers Hunter players the potential counter attack model they have been needing and potentially makes him even worth it with Skatha.

6. Jaecar: Jaecar is a problem for Hunters because the designers believe any buffs in faction make him too good (which on a model that is easily counter attacked I would question but heh). So I suggest:

Resolution: Jaecar gains trait Maverick. Now we can have a DMG buff in faction without the designers freaking out about Jaecar. Yes this is a nerf!

7. Chaska: Fine as is, but given the change to Jaecar, give him Butchery (Jaecar is a skinner so makes sense). Hunters have severe issues with Tough Hide models (which is a little ironic really...) and Butchery will allow them to punch through it - a buff that can't be cleared easily and allows Hunters (a team where killing/taking down is kind of in the name) to finally gain pseudo-Tooled Up. I mean even bloody Farmers have worked out Tooled Up. Hunters should not be in the same group as Fishermen and Alchemists as the only teams without a TU like ability. Butchery also stops the ranged plays getting too powerful as only works on melee DMG (so no 5 DMG shotgun blasts). Adjust playbook to add Double GB result.

8. Seenah's INF: Seenah having 0/2 still hasn't been explained. The 'it's a bear' argument sort of falls down against why a cockerel generates 1 INF... Seenah being 0/2 is a drain on the team but like Windle, it means you are hurt taking a model that is iconic for the team. Unlike Windle, Hunters don't compensate by having Planters and Harvest markers giving out lots of extra INF. Let's make Seenah 2/2 and see what happens. I don't see it making Hunters busted. I mean Vet Kat seems to be 'working as intended' and they literally are identical in playstyle and design.

I don't have enough field test time with the new models to comment yet. But I'm leaning towards Ulfr needing Vindictive or Furious & 2/2 (look at the models - he is literally bellowing in anger and is a frickin' werewolf!) as his abilities are all fighting themselves (he wants to punch people to get better at scoring but he has a 1" melee and no close control so is super vulnerable to KD and T, he can't get crowd outs to help him so he is stuck being on his own - which marks him out) and Skatha having TAC 6 (with 6 columns). I really wish Skatha had a Cold Touch ability to put out those frost-tokens in melee. Would be so much more thematic. 

So anyway, just my stream of consciousness - what would you like to see?

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I'd test this set of changes:

1. Theron:
- Sun Strike and BotSF.
+ Momentous Inspiration.
+ Heroic Play: Guiding Light: Target other friendly Guild model within [4"]. That model gains [+1] DMG to Character Plays that cause damage. 
+ Legendary Play: Sunrise [8" Aura]: Friendly models always have line of sight to models within this aura. 

2. Hearn1:
-> 1/4 INF.
-> 6 TAC.

3. Seenah:
- (>>) on 4th column.
-> 4"/8" MOV.
+ (m1>>) on 3rd column. 
+ (m3>>) on 5th column. 
Primal Guardian [Captain]: When a friendly model of the named type within [6"] suffers the Taken-Out condition, this model gains an extra activation this turn. 

4. Egret:
+ Light Footed.

5. Zarola:
+ Heroic Play: Patient Hunter [6" Pulse]: Trap-markers and pitfall-markers within the pulse positioned by friendly models may be positioned within [4"] of their current locations. 

6. Ulfr:
-> 5 TAC.

(Edit: Cleaned up and simplified some stuff)

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Fascinating. Could you expand on your reasoning for some of these - the Zarola one is not something I would have thought of. 

I love the Seenah trait btw...so momma bear ish!

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20 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

Fascinating. Could you expand on your reasoning for some of these - the Zarola one is not something I would have thought of. 

Sure.

For Theron, I think this cleans up his identity as a ranged support-and-denial captain who helps his team be at-range and hit-and-run fighters. And by "cleans up his identity" I mean "actually makes him fulfill his identity." His new Heroic + MI is a big buff to Egret and Chaska in particular and IMO makes those both worthwhile options, while his Legendary is meant to give him one turn where he can actually defend his team with Nature's Growth and still use it to get the alpha charge with Seenah and Jaecar since they will be able to charge through it to anything within 8 of Theron (it's still a low-impact Legendary but better than nothing and may have exciting jank uses). Momentous Inspiration in particular makes him actually consider using Pinned and not feel like he's throwing INF directly into the garbage—in particular Theron should now be strong before battle lines meet. I remove BotSF from him, making it a Hearne-only ability, to compensate for the Momentum his team can now actually generate and the denial he should be better at.

Hearne1 with these buffs should be better at fighting and actually benefitting from his own Singled Out, meaning he takes it more, uses it better, and hits Skewered on the playbook more often. He definitely needs to be able to hit Skewered more, because he can't get it from BotSF anymore. He still gives low INF, but he's better at having self-sufficient activations, has slightly more real goal threats, and is better at isolating targets for Seenah, Fahad, and Jaecar. This set of changes MAY not have been enough though, not sure.

Seenah I wanted to keep at 0/2 INF cause I think that's one of the unique things about Seenah, but you're definitely right that right now the card doesn't compensate for that incredible downside. With a longer threat, more efficient playbook, and a potentially brutal double activation, Seenah should better escort your captain and delete targets that are set up by Hearne2, Hearne1, and/or Theron. I also like the flavor of having all of Seenah's double pushes attached to damage and momentum: Seenah is a flailing beast, he/she/it should definitely have trouble not hurting opponents who get in the way. A totally frenzied berserker of a bear who gets particularly angry when the blessed chosen of the nature gods are injured seems like what Seenah should be. 

Most of the buffs to Egret are on Theron's new card, I just think it's completely dumb that a woodlands skirmisher would ever be slowed down by a forest or mud or whatever.

I actually disagree with you about Zarola, I think she's in a fine spot currently as a support piece. The main problem is that she's currently supporting trash. That said, I think the ability to respond to opponents by repositioning traps occasionally is a good option to have, and I felt like Zarola is a fine place to put that option. Her activation should be all about set-up: Now even more set-up is there, but it's not crucial, game-breaking set-up that makes her an auto-include or anything. Also repositioning traps so that Seenah can push people into them seems like a good add to Zarola who is already Seenah Relocator In Chief.

Finally, ULFR SHOULD HAVE A TAC BUFF, NOT A TAC PENALTY. This change makes him actually good at wrapping, which is the whole point of his design but that he woefully falls short of. This plus the overall improvement in ranged character plays from Theron means he's more likely to actually be able to charge an isolated, Snared target, actually wrap, and then do the thing his whole card is dedicated to. 

 

EDIT: FWIW I don't think this makes Hunters a top tier team, but I think it makes them a better team. With my changes, two possibly good lineups could be Theron/Fahad/Hearne1/Egret/Jaecar/Chaska and Skatha/Snow/Hearne2/Seenah/Zarola/Ulfr?

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2 hours ago, Slothrop said:

I'd test this set of changes:

1. Theron:
- Sun Strike and BotSF.
+ Momentous Inspiration.
+ Heroic Play: Guiding Light: Target other friendly Guild model within [4"]. That model gains [+1] DMG to Character Plays that cause damage. 
+ Legendary Play: Sunrise [8" Aura]: Friendly models always have line of sight to models within this aura. 

2. Hearn1:
-> 1/4 INF.
-> 6 TAC.

3. Seenah:
- (>>) on 4th column.
-> 4"/8" MOV.
+ (m1>>) on 3rd column. 
+ (m3>>) on 5th column. 
Primal Guardian [Captain]: When a friendly model of the named type within [6"] suffers the Taken-Out condition, this model gains an extra activation this turn. 

4. Egret:
+ Light Footed.

6. Ulfr:
-> 5 TAC.

(Edit: Cleaned up and simplified some stuff)

This is exactly what our meta has been thinking! This is a perfect way to buff Theron and the original hunters! Great write up!

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Interesting read on both set of Ideas. 

I think Theron needs a Playbook change defo a lower :2: MP and a bit of a rejig, Sun Strike needs to be re designed but I don't think Momentous Inspiration Is the answer and I think he should have Light Footed.

Egret needs something for sure, for starts I think she needs a :1::T: MP 

Its early days for the new Hunters but I'm finding Ulfr "Lone Hunter" a pain

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 As a Hunter, if you telegraph your intentions to your prey, they escape.  If you're hunting another predator, and you can't stay one step ahead of them... well, now you're the prey.

So consistent with that theme I feel like Hunter's "identity" wants to revolve around tactical flexibility, exploiting terrain, and lots of options to outmaneuver your opponent (through reposition).  This will naturally make them more difficult to play- but reward players who carefully plan and use that flexibility to make the right move at the right time.

This could mean more access to abilities like "Back to the Shadows"- which give free reposition- or abilities like Midnight Offering and Skatha's snowball + Teamwork which have an out-of-activation component. 

And more damage.  The payoff for all that careful setup should at least equal the investment.

So- leaving out playbook changes- I'd like to see more of that.  For example:

More access to "Swift Strikes", "Shadow Like", & "Unpredictable Movement"

Add tactical flexibility to BotSF by allowing out of activation Character Plays.  BotSF:  "Target Other Friendly Model within [6"].  That model may immediately perform a Character Play of COST [3] or less without spending influence."

Better bonuses for engaging opponents in Rough Ground/Forests (+DMG? +TAC? BOTH?!)

And lastly, buff Snared so that it does some Condition Damage when removed.  Seriously- if you set off one of Chaska's Big Game Traps, you should not be brushing it off for a paltry 1 MOM.

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21 minutes ago, Mistergone said:

And lastly, buff Snared so that it does some Condition Damage when removed.  Seriously- if you set off one of Chaska's Big Game Traps, you should not be brushing it off for a paltry 1 MOM.

Don't know about anyone else, but I consider snared tge strongest condition in the game or just bellow kd.

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50 minutes ago, Jrcitizen said:

Don't know about anyone else, but I consider snared tge strongest condition in the game or just bellow kd.

And as such, it gets removed right away. Hunters have something of a reliance on Snared, which is why I think it would be nice to create some sort of disincentive for it to be removed.

Then again, maybe it overpoweres Minx. But at the same time, Gut & String gives all the same benefit, an additional [-2"/-2"], and can't be removed.

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4 minutes ago, Mistergone said:

But at the same time, Gut & String gives all the same benefit, an additional [-2"/-2"], and can't be removed.

Why not remove the snare attribute on the traps and make it that the opponent is gut and strung instead?  oh and once the trap is fired it is lost and cannot be re placed.

So net effect is possibly 4 extra gut and strung. I mean its not as easy as folks think to get people to trigger the bloody things in the first place.

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Personally, I think talisman on Theron could be a quite simple, yet huge buff to his power level and options. Allows him to consistently put out the control via arrow to the knee or pinned while still doing work with a full influence pool available. I think that plus momentous inspiration, dropping botsf and sun strike as Slothrop suggested would really go a long way to making Theron a stronger and interesting captain.

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6 minutes ago, dtjunkie19 said:

Personally, I think talisman on Theron could be a quite simple, yet huge buff to his power level and options. Allows him to consistently put out the control via arrow to the knee or pinned while still doing work with a full influence pool available. I think that plus momentous inspiration, dropping botsf and sun strike as Slothrop suggested would really go a long way to making Theron a stronger and interesting captain.

Talisman is probably too good but giving him Locked & Loaded would probably have a similar effect.

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Just now, MechMage said:

Talisman is probably too good but giving him Locked & Loaded would probably have a similar effect.

Perhaps, but honestly the main difference between the two is a bit less efficiency and some potential activation order issues. Theron is already a master of both inefficiency and order of activation issues, so I'm not sure fixing those problems somewhat would be that overpowering.

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I find everyone's views interesting. I actually find BotSF one of Theron's best attributes allowing Mom into INF to let Hunters do more than they should. I would hate to see that go. I like his CPs and think they're fine (if they fix the minimum dice + mom issue that makes Arrow weak). I definitely feel it's his melee game that lets him down and lack of a legendary. 

I think Talisman would be great. But SFG would probably consider it waaay too powerful. 

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My changes are a lot more wishy washy, a collection of potential nerfs/buffs to problem areas. They're all different solutions targeted at what I see as the same problems. (E.G Hunters have consistently poor playbooks save for Jaecar) All of them should be taken as "This is one possibility which in tandem with XY or Z might make this model more viable or have a better defined role." Obviously adding all changes at once would make every model OP as shit and I don't feel like adding question marks to the end of every suggestion.

Fahad - Unchanged
Jaecar - Unchanged
Chaska - Unchanged (Although it would be thematic for him to have Tooled Up, and giving him a decent MDamage result to fallback on couldn't hurt that much)

Theron
- Retooled playbook, just make it better at damage in line with Balista as opposed to Fillet or Scalpel
- 3 DMG on Pinned
- Make Pinned 2 INF like Deadbolt
- Add another cheap ranged damaging play
- Momentous Inspiration
- Remove Sun Strike
- Make Sun Strike, 0 INF, OPT
- BOTSF can target self
- Add Tooled Up
- Still don't know why he lost Forest Sight when Shark 's Timewalk was unchanged
- Remove Placement Restrictions on Forest AOE so it can be placed to accomplish very specific purposes
- The obvious worry is that Theron's design would tread too closely to Ballista's in general, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing (which is to say that I think Theron should be like Ballista). Ballista in the Engineers is a very different captain than Ballista in the Hunters by the nature of scoring vs killing.

Hearne
- BOTSF change above
- Tough Hide
- Sturdy
- Momentous Singled Out
- More accessible KD & Tackle

Egret
- 8" Snap Fire
- Snap Fire can trigger from the playbook (Preferably with momentum)
- Arrow to the Knee
- Talisman
- Momentous Damage on PB
- Ignores Tough Hide
- Extra Dice on Character Plays (To add reliability to Snap Fire)
- Anatomical Precision to help get to her new Snap Fire ability

Seenah
- Fear
- Forceful Blow
- Berserk
- Rising Anger
+1 TAC
- More Pushes & Damage on Playbook (Like a bear flailing around an enemy with every attack from its massive f*ckin claws)
- Bear Hug isn't required to land killing blow to get +1VP (Like applying Gravedigger)
- Bear Hug IS required to land killing blow, but gets +2VP's
- Whatever you do to this bear, do NOT add a single Influence to it, make it earn the 0/2 statline because right now she is sorely lacking especially next to vKat, Boar and company, and a far cry from the terrifying Avatar of the Old Gods that we read about murdering Ghast.

Zarola
- I don't know what the hell Zarola is supposed to be... a support piece? A striker? Ball Retrieval? I got nothing, I certainly haven't given her enough games to get a feel for her and her rules entirely contradict her lore so I'm drawing blanks every time I try to think of something, but she sure as hell isn't in a good enough spot.

Minx
- Make her Hunters only.
- *sigh* I'm mostly kidding, but it definitely feels like it kills our uniqueness when most other guilds have access to a player who is dripping with Hunter unique mechanics (or formerly Hunter unique) even if they often would opt for Harry or A&G.
- Obligatory make Minx Dual Guild

Skatha
- Snare AOE lingers like pain circle/fire blast
- Snare AOE deals 2 DMG
- Remove terrain placement restrictions on Fast-Ground
- 5/8 or 6/8 MOV
- I don't actually think Skatha sorely needs any of these buffs, but I just don't see why she couldn't have one or the other. The Bleed on Pain Circle accounts for a greater damage increase for the Butchers than the defense reduction on Cold Snap does for the Hunters, and that's before factoring in its lingering effect clause. Not to mention Skatha isn't exactly a prodigy in damage dealing, pinging for a bit more, and through tough hide wouldn't be broken OP for a captain striker while Vitriol is still running amuck. I got curious actually and found that Mist with sBrisket (or the First Light) has the same raw threat range. Considering the conditions that need to be met to utilize Winter's Night, and Snowball, (Motivated +2, CoverofDark +2, MOV +8, KICK +8, Acrobatics +2) vs (Chill +2, MOV +7, Gn'G +4, KICK +6, Legendary between +1-2) It's not a lateral comparison I know (Nature's Chill and Snowball can both buff allies.), but I still think there's something to be said for what Skatha doesn't provide and how that falls in line with the Hunter's overall design. Pre-nerfs for every strength ensuring that the most we can receive is parity.

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23 hours ago, Slothrop said:

1. Theron:
- Sun Strike and BotSF.
+ Momentous Inspiration.
+ Heroic Play: Guiding Light: Target other friendly Guild model within [4"]. That model gains [+1] DMG to Character Plays that cause damage. 
+ Legendary Play: Sunrise [8" Aura]: Friendly models always have line of sight to models within this aura.

Why not both Momentous Inspiration AND Sun Strike? If it's ok for Union to generate assloads of momentum, why shouldn't Hunters be able to generate 2 for 1 Inf? It's not like you are going to use it umptenthmillion times ;) 

The Heroic is fine, but I would say stay with BotSF, it's really good. 

That is not worth a legendary. I had like 4 games in 300 where LOS came up as an issue. I would change it to a legendary version of Benedictions Impart Wisdom.

 

Blout out the Sun

"If a model uses a Characterplay within this aura that targets another model, it may target a model that is within this aura regardless of the range of the Character Play or LOS" That seems Legendary Play worthy in my opinion.

Character Trait: Mastered the Shadows: This model gains +3 Tac when targeting a model that benefits from cover

Let him keep Hunters Prey, I wanna see what happens with that. :D 

His Playbook, geez. It's not THAT bad, but for a Captain? Almost as terrible as Obulus' Playbook :D 

1   <<      T     KD   2>>
<   2<   2<<  >>  2><  3><

 

EDIT: I will Edit this comment as long as I get ideas

Seenah: I would say let her be Inf 0/2, but let her be the centerpiece of a certain Hunters build.
A literal Hunters Build. First give her 25 HP. Sounds about right for a friggin' bear. 

Character Trait: Ready to kill: 4" Aura: While within this Aura, friendly models pay 1 less Influence for a Character Play once per turn. (EDIT inserted)

Character Trait: Runaway: This models movement value cannot be altered

 

Chaska

Character Play: Prey located: 1 Inf 4" OPT Range Other Target friendly Guild model may use a Character Play without spending Influence

Character Trait: Alarmed: If a Trapmarker is triggered within 4" of this model it may use a Character Play without spending Influence (needs to be revisited due to Therons BotSF, don't know if that would be a tad bit too much)

 

Egret

Character Trait: No cover will protect you: If this model uses a Character Play that targets an enemy model that benefits from cover, this model gains +1 Dice to the Dice Pool. (Inserted EDIT here)

Character Trait: Hit & Run: If this model generates momentum, it may immediatley use Snap Fire without spending Influence. Snap Fire triggered by this ability can not trigger another Snap Fire (EDIT immediately inserted)

Hit & Run removes Back to the Sadows

Slight changes to her Playbook to make her the dodgey beast I envision her, make the double dodge momentous

 

Hearne

Character Trait: No matter the ground: During this models activation it may move as if it started it's movement on Fast Ground. This removes Natures Blessing, he shall keep Light Footed

Character Trait: I'll take that: If this model damages an enemy model that benefits from cover, this model may add a Tackle result to every playbook result it generates.

Inf 1/4, Playbook ok I guess. Wouldn't change it honestly.

 

Jaecar, give him Maverick and 

Character Trait: Insanely Precise: This model gains +2 Tac for every point of armor the enemy model has when attacking an enemy model. (Looking at you, Wrecker)

 

Zarola MOV 5/5 TAC 4 ARM 4 DEF 1 INF 2/4
     ><     2        3    oo
1     T     ><   2<<   3

Character Trait: In a pack: For every friendly human model within 6" at the start of this models activation, this model gains +1/+1 movement

Character Trait: Sibling: For every friendly animal model within 6" this model gains +1 TAC

Linked [Fahad]

Character Play: Chain Bolas 2/oo Inf OPT 4": Target enemy model suffers 2 DMG and the KD condition

Midnight Offering Inf 0 S OPT: This model suffers 4 damage, it may immediately make a jog.

13 HP, Icy sponge at 10

 

Fahad
Character Trait: Downed target: This model gains +1 TAC and +1 DMG to Playbook damage result when attacking an enemy model that suffers from the KD condition

Linked [Zarola]

 

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5 hours ago, Cole said:

Character Trait: Ready to kill: 4" Aura, while within this Aura, friendly character plays cost 1 Inf less

As much as I would love this, 6 boom boxes a turn would not be ok lol. 

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2 hours ago, Jrcitizen said:

As much as I would love this, 6 boom boxes a turn would not be ok lol. 

If I calculated correctly it would be five. Was only brainstorming anyway. :D You can still make it a OP thing per model, which would be obviously more balanced.

Ready to kill: While within this Aura, friendly models pay 1 less Influence for a Characterplay once per turn.

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Some of these ideas seems like a ton of fun.  I always wanted Bear Hug to be "Seenah gains +1/+0 inf for the remainder of the game" when he takes someone out.  I totally believe that the Hunter's guild should be a faction with access to more valuable takeouts, but I don't see how the Bear is the right place for this.  I always thought a player with some sort of "Trophy Hunter" rule would make more sense than the bear mauling someone.  And if the bear had an extra inf mechanic it would offset the ridiculous 0/2 statline and sort of have a fun cinematic feel of the bear's rampage building as he mauls people.  

Egret's SnapFire is a dead play. Its so awful.  I think it has to be rng 10" if she retains flurry on her card.  I don't think it gets to ridiculous as a large portion of terrible def stats models also seem to have tough hide.  So I dont think it would be crazy abusable.  

Is Zarola fixed if she's a 2/4? I get they specifically wanted to avoid her being able to hit both plays on one turn but why? If she could at least pull off a 4 inf activation and then link to the mascot I don't think she breaks the game with her Kick and playbook being what they are.   

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BotSF is a little better than Last Light, trading 1 MOM for 3 INF is really good, considering it would be a 1:1 ratio otherwise. Of course Last Light is free to hand out and self-targetable.

Biggest Problem BotSF currently has, there isn't that many plays to warrant it, Skewered, Pinned and Boom Box are really the only ones you want to use it for, 2 of which needs the other to get use off. Now I don't mind it being "target other Friendly" but limits it considering I've only named 3 abilities worth using it on.

I'm going to assume ability wise nothing changes (I don't mind the tools but I don't think they carry out their intended job) but maybe propose the odd ability addition etc

I can't give playbook by playbook changes, I'm not good enough to think that way but.

Theron

+ Light Footed; think we all agree a captain hunter who CAN'T navigate rough ground is a bit funny.

+ If he is meant to be Melee (from comments made by SFG) makes his playbook look like it. I get he's a bit anti-football BUT he has 3 movement plays in his first 3 columns, 2 of which fill his column 2... That doesn't seem melee to me.

+Nature's Growth to maybe act like Cold Snap from Skatha, maybe make it provide snare by a 2 dice DEF roll.

+How about an ability to shoot the ball away? Would be interesting and play to his anti-football nature. Even just to make it act like the model voluntarily dropped it.

Chaska

+ I don't like the traps as they are now. Don't work thematically and people will tank the results or work around them easily. Chaska's are bear traps, they should feel it. I say add bleed at the least. And or you need to spend 1 MOM to ignore it (I'll expand this idea with Jeacar)

+Tooled up would be a no bad shout but I'm fairly comfortable with him as is, bar traps

Egret

+ Snap Fire, the oddity ability. I believe it has a purpose, it just can't fulfill it. Make it immune to crowd out might not be a bad shout (snap would imply fast and unexpected) just to prevent boosting a potentially hard to hit target. Maybe even allowing it to treat those higher DEF to be only 4+ (again to imply fast and unexpected) makes it still about 50/50 but not impossible (you wouldn't aim at a Def 5+ really)

Hearne

+ INF 2/3 MIGHT not be a bad shout, he is meant to be the granddaddy of Hunters but he's less respected than Theron? (someone Hearne brought into the fold). I think increasing his cap isn't a thing, he can trigger Skewered via playbook so if you load him up you'll potentially get it from there, and it allows him to run up and throw it, if out with combat. I feel also with his teleport (which if set up etc is bloody good) I think he needs a bit of a curve.

Jeacar

+ TRAPS! Pit fall that acts like a slightly better BEAR TRAP!? Make it provide knockdown and bleed. But you could play it like Chaska’s proposed and spend 1/2 MOM (it is bigger) to avoid it. I think controlling how and where players move is very hunter like, this allows them to do it without it being soul destroying.

Seenah

+ Make the bear feel more like Boar, I mean he's a big guy, but we have a bear. Would somewhat warrant the lack of INF (considering Boar is 1/1)

- I also feel a bear shouldn't be able to Tackle, you could put the proposed ball drop ability in Theron's but melee based (swipe away) but just making the ball scatter through knockdown should be fine.

Zarola

+I can get the idea behind her playbook, despite being feral and animalistic, she's fairly pacifist lol. But TAC 5 might not be a bad idea; I mean a 3 inch combat push is fine.

+ Maybe a legendary that pulses and gives a small dodge to those not engaged? "Ahead of the Game" or something. More than likely a turn 1 thing but kinda the point, you COULD save it for later in the game for a surprised rush of speed. I know it's off to give something like a legendary to her, but best way to limit it.

 

I've not had much playtime with the newbies to comment, I know I don't like Snow but I can't see anything wrong with our pup, just couldn't utilize it.

Anyway as proposed a bit of fun but was fun to think about.

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Zarola in the back ground talks about stalking and murdering animals and threatening to slit Minx's throat...I dinnae think she is a pacifist...

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8 minutes ago, EpicChris said:

Zarola in the back ground talks about stalking and murdering animals and threatening to slit Minx's throat...I dinnae think she is a pacifist...

haha I know but in game she's very much support and little combat, I think I meant to say "I can't get around her playbook"

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I really wish the playbook was like the background & the model. A huntress. Someone who straight up stalks and murders people. A female Jaecar...

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