Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Retro Edge

Why does nobody understands your rules SFG? What went wrong and how do you fix it?

Recommended Posts

Every single day I read the comment section of the Kickstarter page and you find so so many people there that either has problems with some of the rules or reports of endless streamers who doesn't understand it at all. Many people say your rules are too vague in many important points and that the rulebook is a little loose on clarity.

 

I can't confirm it yet personally because as a German who ordered the English version, it seems we are the last persons on Earth that gets it... Especially since UK already has their English versions and Germany their German versions but we , even if it's manufactured in Germany, nothing, still can change the address on Backerkit. But that's a different story.

I read and watch many many things about this lovely game and almost everyone has problems with the rules.

What went wrong?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TimBo said:

The Germans don't have their German version. At least I don't, and I cant't remember anyone else. 

People in the UK are the only ones.

Just read the Kickstarter comments, there are many germans with the game, or at least a message that it will arrive Tuesday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Retro Edge.

For myself I can asure you that my german version didn't arrive until now. I don't get why so many people out there can't keep calm and patient. You have been waiting that long for the game and when SFG started shipping the drugstores ran out of bloodpressure medicaments;). You will get your game and if you are afraid the rules are not as exact as you need to understand them: Read them. You can download them on Steamforged Games Website.

 

Have a nice day,

One, who waits for his game in sweet torment

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rules aren't vague, but people tend to interpret/assume to much instead of carefully reading and remembering the rules when they actually play the game. Many rules that streamers messed up were very very clear and they still didn't get it right...

Beside that, I don't have my German version yet. I'm a bit frustrated about that fact too considering the promising update about 4 weeks ago, but it is what it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Replect said:

The rules aren't vague, but people tend to interpret/assume to much instead of carefully reading and remembering the rules when they actually play the game. Many rules that streamers messes up were very very clear and they still didn't get it right...

Beside that, I don't have my German version yet. I'm a bit frustrated about that fact too considering the promising about 4 weeks ago, but it is what it is.

Replect is right. With regards to streamers there's a lot of pressure for them to start asap and be one if the early videos. This can make it easy to forget a rule or two in the rush.

Then there's the sheer number of new mechanics to learn for a new game. Whether you're brand new to board games or experienced with boardgames mechanics it can be very easy to assume something and gloss over it.

The rules themselves are very clear, and the rules I've got wrong so far and spotted afterwards have been clearly stated in sections that make sense.

Some boardgames have really awful rule books, or don't even explain some eventualities, or are translated badly etc. DS:TBG actually has a very clear rulebook. There's just a lot to take in at once.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Replect said:

The rules aren't vague, but people tend to interpret/assume to much instead of carefully reading and remembering the rules when they actually play the game. Many rules that streamers messed up were very very clear and they still didn't get it right...

Beside that, I don't have my German version yet. I'm a bit frustrated about that fact too considering the promising update about 4 weeks ago, but it is what it is.

This exactly. The rules are built using a similar terminology style to something like MTG, just without years of reinforcement to back it up. The problems come from glancing over the rules, rather than properly reading them, and then throwing in interpretations. The prime example: "Oh! This Loot is class specific. That must mean only this class can use it. Oh well..." etc.

I'm guilty of this too. Had a couple of rules questions that have since been sorted that were entirely down to me not reading the words on the page. The fact is this game isn't as simple as people seemed to off handedly think it would be, and a thorough parsing of the rules is needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Chromatism said:

This exactly. The rules are built using a similar terminology style to something like MTG, just without years of reinforcement to back it up. The problems come from glancing over the rules, rather than properly reading them, and then throwing in interpretations. The prime example, "Oh! This Loot is class specific. That must mean only this class can use it. Oh well..." etc.

I'm guilty of this too. Had a couple of rules questions that have since been sorted that were entirely down to me not reading the words on the page. The fact is this game isn't as simply as people seemed to off handedly think it would be, and a thorough parsing of the rules is needed.

Class specific treasure shouldn't be in your treasure deck if your party doesn't have that class should it? Also the whole point of Class specific items surely means only that class can use it, otherwise it would be common?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Cyberfizz said:

Class specific treasure shouldn't be in your treasure deck if your party doesn't have that class should it? Also the whole point of Class specific items surely means only that class can use it, otherwise it would be common?

And... maybe it is the manual then XD It states that class specific gear is only mixed into the treasure deck if you're playing with that class in the game. However there is nothing in the manual stating that only that class can use it. In fact the intention is that anyone can use it, aping the video game's freedom of building your character however you want. I believe this was also mentioned in a couple of older Q&As and possibly some updates... still I'm very confident I have the right of it and no doubt Replect will back me up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Chromatism said:

And... maybe it is the manual then XD It states that class specific gear is only mixed into the treasure deck if you're playing with that class in the game. However there is nothing in the manual stating that only that class can use it. In fact the intention is that anyone can use it, aping the video game's freedom of building your character however you want. I believe this was also mentioned in a couple of older Q&As and possibly some updates... still I'm very confident I have the right of it and no doubt Replect will back me up.

I suppose in keeping with the game there is no such thing as class specific items, however in the rules it is pretty much glossed over as just a treasure deck card options. But my point is why make a class specific icon at all, if all items can be used by anyone matching the statistics?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Chromatism said:

And... maybe it is the manual then XD It states that class specific gear is only mixed into the treasure deck if you're playing with that class in the game. However there is nothing in the manual stating that only that class can use it. In fact the intention is that anyone can use it, aping the video game's freedom of building your character however you want. I believe this was also mentioned in a couple of older Q&As and possibly some updates... still I'm very confident I have the right of it and no doubt Replect will back me up.

All correct! Nothing to add... ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found it in a previous thread where DC already commented and you are absolutely correct. I fell in to the trap you were talking about lol.

Class specific treasure is only as such because it can have certain attributes certain classes have no way of attaining.

I hold my hand up and ask humbly for forgiveness!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Cyberfizz said:

I found it in a previous thread where DC already commented and you are absolutely correct. I fell in to the trap you were talking about lol.

Class specific treasure is only as such because it can have certain attributes certain classes have no way of attaining.

I hold my hand up and ask humbly for forgiveness!

Lol. No need. Easy mistake to make, and I do think that in this instance specifically the problem stems from calling them 'class-specific'. Could have done with perhaps a little side bar in the manual clarifying that, but it is what it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, i suppose the text: "only this class could probably use it because the stats are too high for other classes" was probably a little bit too long for the card to read lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly there's nothing wrong with the rulebook. Many of the issues I've seen have been as a result of people rushing to get gameplay videos online or not reading the rules in full/assuming things. The rulebook is intended to be read in full, in its entirety, page to page, before playing the game. I think the issue stems from people skimming through it and thinking 'well, I've got the basics down' and not bothering to go any further. 

For example, lot of people seem to think only a specific class can use class treasures, but this isn't actually stated anywhere in the rulebook. The rulebook is very clear in saying if someone is playing that class, those treasures get mixed into the treasure deck. It's also very clear in saying if you have the right stats, you can equip an item. 

General motto here is 'it's either in the rulebook or it isn't a rule'. As long as you go by that, it's actually very straightforward. I think a lot of people just aren't used to games of this complexity (multiple symbols on every card, different activation orders, stat costs etc etc).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, reiku85 said:

Honestly there's nothing wrong with the rulebook. Many of the issues I've seen have been as a result of people rushing to get gameplay videos online or not reading the rules in full/assuming things. The rulebook is intended to be read in full, in its entirety, page to page, before playing the game. I think the issue stems from people skimming through it and thinking 'well, I've got the basics down' and not bothering to go any further. 

For example, lot of people seem to think only a specific class can use class treasures, but this isn't actually stated anywhere in the rulebook. The rulebook is very clear in saying if someone is playing that class, those treasures get mixed into the treasure deck. It's also very clear in saying if you have the right stats, you can equip an item. 

General motto here is 'it's either in the rulebook or it isn't a rule'. As long as you go by that, it's actually very straightforward. I think a lot of people just aren't used to games of this complexity (multiple symbols on every card, different activation orders, stat costs etc etc).

 

Yeah, i admit I fell in to the trap of assuming and not taking it by the letter. Or lack of letter in this case.

I also fall in to your last comment of not being used to games of this complexity. The most complex board game i have ever played to date is Flash Point: Fire Rescue lol, and I do play MTG but the rules are written on each card.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Cyberfizz said:

Yeah, i admit I fell in to the trap of assuming and not taking it by the letter. Or lack of letter in this case.

I also fall in to your last comment of not being used to games of this complexity. The most complex board game i have ever played to date is Flash Point: Fire Rescue lol, and I do play MTG but the rules are written on each card.

It's not a bad thing, I think the majority of people will be coming to it from a more 'casual' background, but it is a jump to a game as complex as Dark Souls. I'd say Dark Souls is more akin in complexity to 'Dungeons and Dragons light' than it is to most board games, with individual classes, stats, multiple attack options, special abilities and all the rest. We had a really shaky start when we did our first game, but once it clicks it clicks, and after the game we re-read the rulebook which clarified one or two points we weren't doing correctly. After that we've pretty much got it down pat!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cyberfizz said:

I suppose in keeping with the game there is no such thing as class specific items, however in the rules it is pretty much glossed over as just a treasure deck card options. But my point is why make a class specific icon at all, if all items can be used by anyone matching the statistics?

 

You've probably figured this out by now, but the icons are just so you know which cards to add to the treasure deck, based on the classes you're using.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ashraam said:

 

You've probably figured this out by now, but the icons are just so you know which cards to add to the treasure deck, based on the classes you're using.  :)

Yes, I had a face palm moment and held my hands up accordingly :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Chromatism said:

This exactly. The rules are built using a similar terminology style to something like MTG, just without years of reinforcement to back it up. The problems come from glancing over the rules, rather than properly reading them, and then throwing in interpretations. The prime example: "Oh! This Loot is class specific. That must mean only this class can use it. Oh well..." etc.

It's funny that you mention MTG. If you look up the editor for Dark Souls: The Board Game and the editor who revamped Magic: The Gathering to clearer language back when they did their first big reset, you'll find a familiar name. She also spearheaded the wording revamps of Warmachine MkII, which was widely regarded as when that game got much clearer and introduced a greater focus on rules interactions. Thanks, Darla! :wub:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, DC said:

It's funny that you mention MTG. If you look up the editor for Dark Souls: The Board Game and the editor who revamped Magic: The Gathering to clearer language back when they did their first big reset, you'll find a familiar name. She also spearheaded the wording revamps of Warmachine MkII, which was widely regarded as when that game got much clearer and introduced a greater focus on rules interactions. Thanks, Darla! :wub:

@DC and Darla sitting in a tree, making rule books for sfg. :D

Thanks Darla for making it easier for idiots like me to understand.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Cyberfizz said:

@DC and Darla sitting in a tree, making rule books for sfg. :D

Thanks Darla for making it easier for idiots like me to understand.

 

You have the soul of a poet sir. :P

55 minutes ago, DC said:

It's funny that you mention MTG. If you look up the editor for Dark Souls: The Board Game and the editor who revamped Magic: The Gathering to clearer language back when they did their first big reset, you'll find a familiar name. She also spearheaded the wording revamps of Warmachine MkII, which was widely regarded as when that game got much clearer and introduced a greater focus on rules interactions. Thanks, Darla! :wub:

Warmachine MkII as well? Give her a thanks from me. Spent some happy moments with that game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×