Jump to content
Fermorfan

Season 3 is not for Brewers

Recommended Posts

So Stricly the Worst ep 17 has a battle report where Nach beats up on Fish 6-0. Now I think that neither I nor most people reading this have the level of talent equal to one of the best players in NA and probably the world, but i think there are some good things to takeaway.

The first is ball killing. I spent the first half of this thread arguing that using mash to kill the ball was a poor use of resources...and maybe i'll have to eat crow now. Nach attributed his success to killing the ball immediately on turn 1 and keeping shark out of scoring position for the first two turns. The first model he managed to remove was oSiren. From there he was able to push and smash his way to 12-0. 

I think the keys to this matchup are ball killing and target priority. You dont have to kill the ball forever, just long enough to remove key peices like siren and occupy forward space on the board. Using the cat and tapper properly to leverage dmg spikes and build an early mp pool seem central as well. 

Also, on a more general note, I think the brewers first 4 picks are basically set in stone. Tapper, scum, friday, and oSpigot are all auto-includes in every single matchup IMO. I think the last 2 spots can be filled by Mash, Hooper, Stoker, Harry, Pintpot, and A&G as you see fit. And i dont mean to say that other models shouldn't be played for fun, theme, aestetics, or a challenge, just that if your top goal is winning, those 4 models are better than every single alternative option available to the guild. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

 I think the keys to this matchup are ball killing and target priority. You dont have to kill the ball forever, just long enough to remove key peices like siren and occupy forward space on the board. Using the cat and tapper properly to leverage dmg spikes and build an early mp pool seem central as well. 

Find where siren is, know shark probably kicked off towards the middle and decide after the kickoff where  the ball needs to go to be safe. Then setup for the next turn trying to generate MP off anyone who comes too close. Kill ball until you get some take outs then shoot the opportunistic goals to get you to the 8-10 mark. I completely agree with your assessment and feel like having tapper in the center of the plan is a great idea as well.

18 hours ago, Frankanelli said:

Also, on a more general note, I think the brewers first 4 picks are basically set in stone. Tapper, scum, friday, and oSpigot are all auto-includes in every single matchup IMO. I think the last 2 spots can be filled by Mash, Hooper, Stoker, Harry, Pintpot, and A&G as you see fit. And i dont mean to say that other models shouldn't be played for fun, theme, aestetics, or a challenge, just that if your top goal is winning, those 4 models are better than every single alternative option available to the guild. 

I'm not sure why Friday is an auto include. I have Mash and OSpigot as my auto includes to make my 4. As a matter of fact, Tapper, Hooper, scum, oSpigot, and Mash are all included in my fish line-up. The last slot being either Harry or Friday. That is my competitive line-up into fish and it is 4-0 at the moment against shark. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jmrhode1 said:

I'm not sure why Friday is an auto include. I have Mash and OSpigot as my auto includes to make my 4. As a matter of fact, Tapper, Hooper, scum, oSpigot, and Mash are all included in my fish line-up. The last slot being either Harry or Friday. That is my competitive line-up into fish and it is 4-0 at the moment against shark. 

I think she is because goals are worth 4 victory points. after all the fighting and killing if you find yourself at 8 points its a lot easier for her to make moves and close out a game then anyone else the team can bring (again because were keeping OG Spigot) she's got the distance and tools to put in a game winner and brewers need that. plus if you take harry you have very little counter goal threat. now early you may not want to use that but like I said if you get to 8 and there at 4 or 6 then who cares let them score and counter right back with  Friday. after her it falls to spigot whos got a 4 dice 15" threat which is way down from Fridays 4 dice 20" threat. if near spigot its 5 dice 21". point is she give the opportunity to get into tap in range or blast an 11" shot. she's just more versatile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that she is way more versatile but i am finding in most of my games that the scrum is happening at the mid-line and I am killing 2-4 people and scoring a goal either to get me to 8 or to end the game. Most of the time though I send tapper (while in football legend) or a bonus timed harry, or even super shot mash for that goal though. Friday is a great choice for the team, and I should probably get more table time in with her before I say she isn't an auto include, but for me idk where to take other players out for her.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jmrhode1 said:

I'm not sure why Friday is an auto include. 

Couple things. First, she is as people have said a good and extremely efficient goal threat. Second is she herself can kill the ball in a different way from Mash. Greyscales was mentioned as a problem elsewhere in the thread, well 5+/1 behind a bunch of people waving 2" melee around makes her, at the very least, complicated to strip the ball from for a 5 TAC tackle-on-2 (or, for example with Mist, 4 TAC tackle-on-1) model. Third, she enables the cat missile, so at the very least when kicking you really want her.

STW throws around "the cat missile" a lot (patent pending THE PAT CAT), and we've been asked in a few different places what it is exactly. It's a kick-off strategy for Tapper. Basically, assuming you kicked with Tapper, your last four activations turn 1 are:

-Friday GOH's Scum into charge threat of 1+ enemies
-Scum charges a model, getting 1-2 MOM and, if the opponent is outside 11" of Tapper, using momentous pushes to push them inside 11" of Tapper. (If threat range isn't needed, just damage them).
-Spigot1 Tools Up Tapper and Time's Called.
-Tapper has an 11" threat for his activation, is Tooled Up, and if Scum got 2 MOM has a MOM to clear conditions. This gives him a very strong last activation which somewhat mitigates the disadvantages of a slow team kicking off and can really take opponents by surprise.

Couple nice things about the strat: Cat is only worth 1 VP and is pretty hard to hit for a mascot, it's a surprise at least the first time it happens, and then after that if your opponent is playing cagey enough to avoid this play you're getting some positional advantages cause they can't totally take centerfield on turn one. I'm not the resident Brewers player, this is just observation, but trying this out if y'all aren't already should help a bit with the Season 3 woes.

Aaaaaanyway that strat obviously needs Friday so that's a pretty good argument for her. :)
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Slothrop that is a really interesting strategy and I will definitely have to give it a shot. Friday has scored 3 goals in 4 games for me and isn't terribly hard to protect (but then you have two vulnerable players in one area is my only argument) 

 

I digress, thanks for the cat strat!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Slothrop said:

STW throws around "the cat missile" a lot (patent pending THE PAT CAT), and we've been asked in a few different places what it is exactly. It's a kick-off strategy for Tapper. 


 

So my friend and I first starting employing greede as a 1st turn missile to generate some mp to get Tapper into someone turn 1 with times called.  Tapper's threat is actually a little nuts and his dmg + mp generation are tops.  It was a good start but it killed greede frequently and sort of ignored half of what makes that pair so good.  Friday launching the cat is perfect.  He's weirdly hard to kill and offers little value for taking him out.  Setting him up turn 1 in the general vicinity of where Tapper is going lets you put 6 inf on the captain turn 2. He's a great enabler and getting Tapper and the cat into someone on turn 1 is usually enough mp to get the initiative turn 2. 

I know I saw someone on here say it sometimes take 2 or 3 turns to get Tapper into people but honestly the man should fairly frequently get into your opponent on turn 1. You just have to get creative with making Spigot's heroic go off. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How good is the cat missile into people who see it coming?  It's got a long threat sure but it seems like a lot of its power comes from its gotcha nature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, MechMage said:

How good is the cat missile into people who see it coming?  It's got a long threat sure but it seems like a lot of its power comes from its gotcha nature.

I know in the games where I really stick it to brewers I find that they fail to get more than one model even over the center line.  The benefit of freely occupying the middle of the table with the best scrum guild is powerful.  Unless they burn knee slider on a turn 1 goal, chances are someone will be in range of tapper if they try to score.  And if they play very passively, you just occupy forward space on the board.  Its certainly better than durdling up to 2" short of the center line and waiting for a 1st turn goal to put you down 0-4. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MechMage said:

How good is the cat missile into people who see it coming?  It's got a long threat sure but it seems like a lot of its power comes from its gotcha nature.

The cat threatens 15" [woops, 17", shadowlike lol] off deployment, and as long as the cat then touches one model Tapper threatens 15" from deployment/11" from where he kicks. Certainly avoidable, but just as certainly a pain to avoid, so at the very least if your opponent sees it coming they have to be playing way far back. How much of an advantage that is will change with every matchup, but it should stop an opponent from interacting with you (whether through attacks or goals) without some serious counterpunch from Tapper. 

EDIT: Also, and this is just as important, what else were you doing? If you kick, you're likely kicking with Tapper anyway, since he does a bajillion damage and you want him up the field. When you're kicking, I doubt the cat was doing anything more interesting than this, and though you do give the opponent the cat to attack, they're getting momentum from the ball anyway, and the cat is a pain to attack successfully. Even Friday's positioning doesn't have to be anything special. What's nice about this idea is that it's relatively low-risk, potentially high-reward, and feeds into general good principles of Turn One regardless. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, MechMage said:

How good is the cat missile into people who see it coming?  It's got a long threat sure but it seems like a lot of its power comes from its gotcha nature.

I think it's still a reasonable choice even when your opponent knows it's coming, of everything I've tried it seems to provide the best combination of flexibility and threat that Brewers have access to when kicking. Is it on the level of Shark, Vitriol, or Mist kicking? Not even close, but it at least forces your opponent to play around the threat if they want to completely shut it down unlike every other kick off I've see from Brewers. With 6'' GOH, 2'' shadowlike, 8'' sprint, and 1'' melee the cat threats slightly less than 17'' from where it's deployed which covers the majority of space the kicking player is otherwise able to freely occupy.

That's not to say there isn't counter play, $cum getting to charge Avarice is very different from him getting to charge a 5/0 with access to defensive stance. Another thing to be wary of is a cagey counter charge, especially the Brick/Marbles combo, can make finding a target fairly difficult. Additionally, if the only targets they give you have access to a semi-reliable double push it can be somewhat difficult to get the second attack in reliably.

My largest complaint with "the cat missile" (patent pending THE PAT CAT), is that it isn't amazing into Alchemists, who are both quite strong at the moment and common at the top tables of US regional/national events. For a fairly typical lineup of Midas/Flask/Vitriol/Harry/Kat1/Calculus (to blind tapper), there really aren't any amazing targets for $cum.

  • Midas - untouchable due to unpredictable movement
  • Flask - 3/2 is rough for the cat, only slightly better than a coin flip to generate momentum on the charge, follow up attack is basically hopeless
  • Harry - Situationally ok as a target, he can still gamble on the counter attack, ~40% to deny the second attack. Rising anger also kinda problematic
  • Vitriol - The threat of her using defensive stance is problematic, second attack is fairly unreliable
  • Kat1 - His counter-attack is problematic, should at least generate 1M on the charge
  • Calculus - Similar to Vitriol in terms of def stats which isn't ideal, poison is annoying

On the whole Kat1 and Harry are probably the best bets, especially Kat1 as he often gets lured up the field. Other picks than Calculus can be Compound or Crucible most commonly. Compound is annoying, Crucible is a pretty ok target.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ran the cat for the first time in a long time today in response to this thread.  Actually ran my Brewers for the first time in a few months.  The cat did ok.  Didn't push a model into charge range of Tapper, but got enough momentum for Spigot to get Time's Called out there for Tapper to make it to the target.  I don't know if I like more than Friday kicking off though.  Her being up there after the kick off, calling the cat, and then having an 11'' threat with a MOM T on column 1 is pretty nice.  

Tapper having access to INF /6 again was sweet, and I got "Sic Em" both games I played, which was awesome lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I play against a friend who use the Tapper's Brewers with effective results.

 

Their killing quartet is Tapper, O.Spigot, Hooper and Scum, then you have Friday and the last place can be anyone.  They have really good synergies between each and are quite mobile due to their long melee reach.  As long the quartet stays in close proximity of each other, to benefits the modifiers, they can quite easily take out a lot of your opposition models down in one turn.  

 

If they start a scrum, Friday will be most probably lurking, to threaten on goal, depending on whether she has the ball or not.  Whilst the sixth player can either help with the fight or provide another goal threat.

 

I haven't seen Brewers play before until my friend starting using them and optimise the abilities they have.  I feel they are very strong team once you understand the synergies between the models.  The Cat is a nightmare, even more so if it has Sic 'Em.  

 

I definitely feel they are right for this Season's Meta if you play to their strengths.  They have enough capabilities to control and dictate a game. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a confession.  I have only played Hooper once since I got Pintpot.  Hooper's something of a drain on INF, and he wants as much as he can get.  Pintpot donates 2, has 2 turns where he essentially has 5, and wrecks as much, if not more, face in far more adverse situations.  The 2'' melee is what keeps Hooper in my 10, but so far, I've been taking Pintpot as my designated beater.

Secondly, I agree that Brewers are perfectly fine in the meta in every respect except against Fish.  Like, playing against Flint was a refreshing change of pace.  You mean I can counter attack and can actually reach you? You mean Spigot2 actually is useable because 2'' melee doesn't ignore Poised and Jac isn't here to just shove him off the side of the board?  A game where I can actually hide the ball from the striker?  What a concept.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

I have a confession.  I have only played Hooper once since I got Pintpot.  Hooper's something of a drain on INF, and he wants as much as he can get.  Pintpot donates 2, has 2 turns where he essentially has 5, and wrecks as much, if not more, face in far more adverse situations.  The 2'' melee is what keeps Hooper in my 10, but so far, I've been taking Pintpot as my designated beater.

Secondly, I agree that Brewers are perfectly fine in the meta in every respect except against Fish.  Like, playing against Flint was a refreshing change of pace.  You mean I can counter attack and can actually reach you? You mean Spigot2 actually is useable because 2'' melee doesn't ignore Poised and Jac isn't here to just shove him off the side of the board?  A game where I can actually hide the ball from the striker?  What a concept.

 

PintPot is in no way similar to Hooper and I can't imagine filling him in as a substitution for him. Hooper has a better threat range, better counter attack, can take a lot more hits and heals a lot better with his heroic clearing conditions which allows him to heal 4hp in his activation always if needed, gives more board control, can give tough skin to someone and dmg modifiers stack amazingly on him, 10hp with 6 hits is sic! With Pint Pot you need to look out for counter attacks, only have tac6 and maybe tac7 with CA, is way easier to kill and I can't stress enough how much better is 2" melee than 1" melee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread is incredibly interesting. I play brewers since last season 1 and have some success in season 2 (at least some victories) but season 3 was extremely hard, especially against football team like fishermen or alchemists (no wins).

I have used the cat missile in a other way : throw the cat down the throat of a target with tooled up and within commanding aura. He can deal some damages but that’s not as efficient as sending Tapper thanks to pushes and Time’s called.

On the particular subject of Hooper vs PintPot, I strongly recommend to read this blog :

 http://mountaineersguild.com/wp/?p=447

You can see that for 3 influences, Hooper deals more damage than PintPot on a KD model, which is what you want anyway.

I have played PintPot a couple of time, and he is amazing as long as he has bottles, but after that, his efficiency goes down a lot.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Aranud said:

This thread is incredibly interesting. I play brewers since last season 1 and have some success in season 2 (at least some victories) but season 3 was extremely hard, especially against football team like fishermen or alchemists (no wins).

 

I have used the cat missile in a other way : throw the cat down the throat of a target with tooled up and within commanding aura. He can deal some damages but that’s not as efficient as sending Tapper thanks to pushes and Time’s called.

 

On the particular subject of Hooper vs PintPot, I strongly recommend to read this blog :

 

 http://mountaineersguild.com/wp/?p=447

 

You can see that for 3 influences, Hooper deals more damage than PintPot on a KD model, which is what you want anyway.

 

I have played PintPot a couple of time, and he is amazing as long as he has bottles, but after that, his efficiency goes down a lot.

 

 

 

I have a feeling the key to playing a brawling team is an exceptional knowledge of how to kill the ball in the most irritating way possible. Like players hiding in a corner, only to break out of the corner to sprint up the edge and boot it into the enemy backfield as hard as they can. With a willingness to waste a beater charging someone with the ball just to tackle it and kick it off into a place where the opponent lacks players to keep them chasing it.

Personally i haven't learned much of this style because originally i played fish -- who did not want a dead ball. Then i progressed to morticians who i find a looot more to my taste, and they don't really want a dead ball either because obulus is a pretty grand striker in my eyes, the amount of goals i score with that sucker along w/ backup dancers like BPM.

I'm thinking i'll have to learn it now i've picked up Thresher farmers as a secondary team however, they really want to see a dead ball for as long as possible and then sink a goal near the end. I think this is exactly what brewers sound like they want too

You're never going to shut down the fish or alchemist ball game entirely, but you can slow them down enough to give you time to accumulate the take out VPs and the center control to make their life hell

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Edek said:

 

PintPot is in no way similar to Hooper and I can't imagine filling him in as a substitution for him. Hooper has a better threat range, better counter attack, can take a lot more hits and heals a lot better with his heroic clearing conditions which allows him to heal 4hp in his activation always if needed, gives more board control, can give tough skin to someone and dmg modifiers stack amazingly on him, 10hp with 6 hits is sic! With Pint Pot you need to look out for counter attacks, only have tac6 and maybe tac7 with CA, is way easier to kill and I can't stress enough how much better is 2" melee than 1" melee.

It comes down to playstyle, though the "in no way similar" comment is ludicrous lol.  They're both characters made to deal damage.  I generally find that PintPot is more adaptable to a situation and I generally prefer that over Hooper.  Hooper wants to be a late activation, and he wants all the buffs.  Trying to get 1 model dead with just 3 INF is rough.  PintPot doesn't mind them, but he can go right away if needed to, and do it at 5 INF.  Generally, he goes after Tapper has, so he's TAC7, +1 damage, and if I'm lucky, bag of quaffers but meh.  The other thing is that now that Harry is playable in Season 3, Hooper's 2'' melee isn't 100% required since Harry's got it, and Harry's got better pushes anyways.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jedianakinsolo said:

The other thing is that now that Harry is playable in Season 3, Hooper's 2'' melee isn't 100% required since Harry's got it, and Harry's got better pushes anyways.  

Harry can't get Tooled Up and doesn't benefit from Commanding Aura.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know. pintpot is crazy efficient as a battery and still gets work done. I also think that a pintpot team might dish out more damage then a Hooper team because of that efficacy (if there the either/or this discussion has taken).  I don't need another big beat stick because I bring Tapper and I have not been disappointed at him no matter who I though him at. you have scum and og spigot who clean up whatever if left in tappers wake any way and they both do insane damage on KD models in commanding aura. I usually play Avarisse because singled out is dumb and when you through that on someone that cat and spigs catchup real quick to Hooper in the damage department just with there short playbooks. also pintpot brings some different things the to the table like getting around Hags "fear" and also being able to apply bleed. beating up a model with reanimate and letting them bleed out in the maintenance phase the next turn so you can actually kill them is super helpful

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sid said:

Harry can't get Tooled Up and doesn't benefit from Commanding Aura.

That's fine. I don't need him to be affected by every play for him to go do his job. That's one of the problems with the Brewers.  They can turn a guy up to 9, but it telegraphs everything so badly.  I find that I don't have to have Tooled Up as an option for every player.  Harry donating 2 INF to the pool, molotoving and pushing stuff every round is great.  He's a fantastic control piece. Kind of like what the guy above me said, there's all kinds of fighting to be done by any player on the lineup.  I'm only going to get Tooled up on one of them.  CA would be nice but trying to get every little last bonus out of every model on the board is also a great way for your opponent to know which model needs gutted and strung or put on fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Received against Alchs last night and used the Cat Strat to great efficiency, blocking vitriols charge lane and then pulling an unsuspecting Harry in to threat range. Vitriol goes and hits friday a few times and puts up clone. Tapper burns the clone with a Bonus timed marked target (whew) and then puts her into the dirt start of round 2. Very interest pressure that the cat provides. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×