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Scattering over barrier

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Looking for clarification, had thus come up last night and I can't find clarification, or maybe someone needs to ELI5. 

From barrier rules:

The ball-token may not be placed 
on a barrier; if the final landing-
spot is within a barrier, or the ball-
token contacts the terrain for any 
reason, use the rule of least 
disturbance to place the ball-token 
in base-contact with the terrain 
piece along the original line of 
travel.(In this case scatter path in diagram.)

Rule of least disturbance:

The rule of least disturbance 
applies whenever attempting to 
place models or ball-tokens. This 
means attempt to place the model 
or token as close the correct 
location as is possible without 
moving or disturbing any other 
models or terrain on the pitch.

My mind says it should be on north side of barrier. 

But closest correct position puts it on south side of barrier.

Also if anyone needs diagrams drawn contact me for a quote.

Also in this theoretical diagram, the people voted and swapped east and west on the map(democracy am i right?)

FB_IMG_1490991547175.jpg

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It would be on the North side of the barrier; the path the ball *actually takes* is from the kicker's position to the position the scatter went to, and the barrier gets in that way of that.

Note that your diagram wouldn't happen exactly that way because kick scatters necessarily move the ball forward relative to the target; the receiver would have to be closer to the corner of that barrier.

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The S3 rulebook has this worded slightly differently.  "The ball-marker may not be placed on a barrier; if the final landing-spot is within a barrier, or the ball-marker contacts a barrier during a scatter, use the rule of least disturbance to place the ball-marker in base-contact with the barrier along the ball-path." [my emphasis] 

I have always understood this and seen this played as your instinct suggests: as soon as the scatter path brings the ball in contact with the barrier, then the ball stops and is placed there.

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During the scatter is where I tripped up and where is says place the ball "as close to the correct position," i thought correct position was scatter point.

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It says use the rule of least disturbance to place the ball as close to it's correct position. As close to it's correct position would be in base contact with the barrier on the other side, which makes no sense. 

 

it needs to say that the ball marker cannot pass THROUGH a barrier during its scatter. All it says at the moment is that the ball cannot end ON or WITHIN, and the rules for contacting it don't work either. 

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I know what you're saying, and common sense would run that way, but I'm saying by the letter of the rules right now the Ball ends up here:

 

IMG_4812.JPG

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45 minutes ago, Saje said:

I know what you're saying, and common sense would run that way, but I'm saying by the letter of the rules right now the Ball ends up here:

 

IMG_4812.JPG

Amusingly, I think you're correct. Nothing in the rules states it stops before the barrier, and rule of least disturbance clearly puts it on the far side, as close as possible to the final position whilst still maintaining contact with the barrier as required.

I have never seen anybody play it this way however. It's usually placed on the near-side of the barrier along the ball path, as common sense would imply.

Edit: Actually I'm not sure, I guess "along" from "along the ball path" could imply a direction, but it could also just mean "on" the line. Common sense dictates it's directional in this case but I don't think the wording is 100% clear.

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I think it's wrong to assume "closest to the scatter point" is the correct interpretation just because least disturbance is mentioned.

Least disturbance is used when attempting to place the ball in a particular location.  Where are we placing the ball?  Not at the scatter point, but in contact with the obstruction along the ball's "flight path".  We need least disturbance only in the case where another model exists at the intended spot (e.g. in my screenshot, we need to place the ball at one of these two points, but need to use least disturbance to place it in either location).

Screen Shot 2017-04-04 at 11.02.02.png

The only question then is whether point 1 or 2 is the correct one, and the rule says "when it makes contact during a scatter", so I think it's far more reasonable to assume the closest side.

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What i said before (and the diagram i added) satisfies all the points that are being mentioned in the rulebook.

We use the rule of least disturbance to (this is a quote) "...place the ballmarker (or model if relevant) as close to the correct location as possible, without moving or disturbing any other models or terrain on the Pitch."

We place the ball marker in base contact with the barrier

We place the ball marker along the ball path.

 

Nothing says the ball stops at the barrier, just that you follow these steps if it contacts the barrier.

 

I'd just like to point out that i know this is wrong, it's not how it's supposed to be played as common sense and the clear intention is that the ball stops as soon as it hits the barrier and doesn't magically pass through it. However playing devil's advocate here, the rules don't state that. 

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Agreed, but both you and megalodon have used least disturbance as a justification for choosing the far side, so I pointed out why I think that is not a valid justification.  That is, there is no rule I can see that favours one side over the other, which is different from claiming the far side is the correct side.

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1 hour ago, Malnorma said:

Agreed, but both you and megalodon have used least disturbance as a justification for choosing the far side, so I pointed out why I think that is not a valid justification.  That is, there is no rule I can see that favours one side over the other, which is different from claiming the far side is the correct side.

I understand what you're saying, but my point is that in your explanation you are left wondering if it stops at point 1 or point 2.

If at this point you apply the rule of least disturbance, which is mentioned in the rule, then it settles it to point 2.

 

if you follow the 3 clear points that are explained as to what happens when you contact a barrier (least disturbance, base contact with barrier, along the ball path) then the final position is very easy to determine.

 

You're choosing to ignore one part of the rule, and it leaves the final placing of the ball ambiguous. 

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I'm not choosing to ignore it, I'm not applying it to an unrelated situation.  You only use least disturbance once you know where you will place the ball-marker, not to determine where the ball lands.  Let me quote it:  "The rule of least disturbance generally only applies when attempting to place the ball-marker."  That's not "in order to determine the ball's location", that's after you've determined a location and you're trying to physically place the ball-marker at that location.  You use least disturbance only to ensure the ball-marker isn't illegally placed.

The intended location of the ball is not the scatter point until after you've verified that it hasn't contacted an obstacle.  If the path crosses an obstacle, the new intended location is b2b with said obstruction along the ball path.  Only then does least disturbance get involved.

I know you've said you understand my point, but I think this explanation is cleaner than what I wrote before.  If you still disagree, then I won't post again... we can just wait to see what falls out.

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That does explain your point a lot clearer, and i think i actually understand better now.

 

I still stand by the fact that you're not using least disturbance to determine the ball's location, you're using a combination of all 3 methods that they mention in the rule (least disturbance, B2B, along the ball path) and when you miss that kick and scatter you are placing the ball marker, so i don't see why it wouldn't apply?

 

You miss the kick, you scatter, you try to place the ball, it turns out that it will contact the barrier, you use least disturbance to reel the ball back, keep it b2b with terrain and on the ball path. Following this method you end up on the far side of the barrier.

 

it's an interesting subject that can simply be solved by putting in the line "The ball will not pass through a barrier"  

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On 4/1/2017 at 6:49 AM, careen said:

Looking for clarification, had thus come up last night and I can't find clarification, or maybe someone needs to ELI5. 

From barrier rules:

The ball-token may not be placed 
on a barrier; if the final landing-
spot is within a barrier, or the ball-
token contacts the terrain for any 
reason, use the rule of least 
disturbance to place the ball-token 
in base-contact with the terrain 
piece along the original line of 
travel.(In this case scatter path in diagram.)

Rule of least disturbance:

The rule of least disturbance 
applies whenever attempting to 
place models or ball-tokens. This 
means attempt to place the model 
or token as close the correct 
location as is possible without 
moving or disturbing any other 
models or terrain on the pitch.

My mind says it should be on north side of barrier. 

But closest correct position puts it on south side of barrier.

Also if anyone needs diagrams drawn contact me for a quote.

Also in this theoretical diagram, the people voted and swapped east and west on the map(democracy am i right?)

FB_IMG_1490991547175.jpg

In this example, the ball-marker would be placed on the 'north' side of the barrier.

When a barrier gets in the way of a scatter, you place the ball-marker in base-contact with the obstacle, along the original line of travel.  Measuring from the Kicking model along the scatter path will contact the barrier on the north side.

Cheers :)

 

 

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