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Suppose Jaecar begins his activate and moves to be just further than 2" away from an opposing Brick.  Brick uses Counter Charge, but do to a quirk of the terrain and an unrelated compelling reason for Brick to be up the field, Brick's charge causes him to both enter and leave Jaecar's melee zone, provoking a Parting Blow.  Jaecar deals damage to Brick with the parting blow and takes no further actions once the Counter Charge attack is resolved.  When Jaecar's activation ends, can he use Back to the Shadows even though the only damage he dealt during the activation was from a Parting Blow?

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I suppose the given example will go against: "A Charging model may Advance up to its max-move and, if able, must end the Advance engaging the target enemy model."

But nice 'Theory Ball' play. :)

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Brick did do that, Sid. He ended Engaging but not Engaged. This happens frequently with models with different melee zone sizes.

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Normally parting blows can't cause repositions.  Swift strikes doesn't trigger off a parting blow for instance.  BttS might not trigger for the same reason.

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In this case the reposition doesn't trigger until the end of Jaecar's activation.  At that point the Parting Blow is well since resolved.  Swift Strikes happens at the point of the attack.  Thinking the activation trigger makes them distinct in this case.

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Surely the answer has to be no. We can build a chain of because's that go back to the parting blow.

Why can you make a BTTS reposition? Because you caused damage this activation. Why did you cause damage? Because you made an attack. What caused you to make an attack? An enemy model leaving your engagement (a parting blow). So you can't make the BTTS reposition. 

I'd say the same goes for the escaping fate question as well. If you can directly trace an action back through other actions and triggers to a previous action, then that must have caused everything that follows.

 

Another way to put it would be to ask yourself "if the parting blow never happened could I reposition right now?" If the answer is that whether the parting blow happened or not makes no difference then you make the reposition. If the answer is that without the parting blow happening you couldn't, the don't make the reposition.

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Not sure i agree with your logic there @Henry. However it is an interesting question. My gut would be that Jaecar does not get it as it is during the activation of someone else? (Assuming counter charge caused by someone else on the hunters team).

Correct me if I am wrong.

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I see Back to the Shadows as a binary on/off toggle checked at the end of the activation. Did you cause damage this activation? Great, you get BTTS. It doesn't need to look into specific causes of damage. 

As an alternate example, if someone takes a Parting Blow from Brick and ends up KDed outside Brick's melee range (ending their advance), Brick can immediately counter charge them, and the counter charge works as normal (i.e. Knockback is active and Brick could use Concussion) even though it only happened because of a Parting Blow.

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Yeah it is an on/off toggle, but is a parting blow your activation or an attack action during the opponents? Counter charge is different as it triggers only on someone else's activation.

Again i may be wrong but you never know.

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42 minutes ago, masterkdog said:

Yeah it is an on/off toggle, but is a parting blow your activation or an attack action during the opponents? Counter charge is different as it triggers only on someone else's activation.

Again i may be wrong but you never know.

It's still Jaecar's activation, and while you roll the parting blow dice Jaecar is the active model, even if you're currently interrupting another model's action.

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I'll use the sequence of attack chart as a reference for my reasoning. The parting blow is an attack and so carries out every step of the sequence. In my reasoning as the parting blow can not cause a reposition then any part of the sequence where a reposition could take place, or if a reposition relies upon something that happens during this sequence, then the reposition is prevented.

Example 1) Escaping Fate. The model suffers the Taken Out condition (and so follows the sequence of taking a model out) at step 3 of the parting blow's sequence of an attack. As the reposition is caused by this step of the parting blow sequence then it cannot happen.

Example 2) Swift Strikes / Blood Dance / Between A Rock... / Knockback. These actions happen at step 4 of the parting blow's sequence of an attack (Knockback happens at step 2.5). As the reposition is caused by this step of the parting blow sequence then it cannot happen. 

Example 3) Back To The Shadows. This action relies upon the result that happened at step 2.5 of the parting blow's sequence of an attack. As the reposition is caused by this step of the parting blow sequence then it cannot happen. 

Example 4) Countercharge a model knocked down by a parting blow. This action happens at step 3 of sequence of (an advance). It does not rely upon the parting blow which happens at step 2 of the advance sequence. As the advance is not caused by the parting blow you can move (also the countercharge isn't a reposition so isn't restricted anyway, but I included it to show my thinking).

I'm welcome to counter arguments.

Edit: my suggestion is that you can start on one chart and move to a second, the second relies upon the first but the first does not rely upon the second.

So with the escaping fate example we start with the sequence of an advance chart. A parting blow occurs at step 2 and we move onto the sequence of an attack chart. The attack chart is caused by the advance chart but the advance chart is not caused by the attack chart.

During the attack the model gets taken out at step 3 and we move to the Taken Out chart. The Taken Out chart is caused by the attack chart (and so the advance chart) but neither the attack chart nor advance chart are caused by the Taken Out chart.

I hope that clears up my reasoning a bit. I'd be interested to hear of counter examples.

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@Henry I'd say I agree with most of what you said, with one exception.

I'd be tempted to say that any reposition that occurs during the Parting Blow's Sequence of an Attack cannot occur, but everything else (which would include Back to the Shadows, since that one occurs at the Enf of Activation, long after the Attack sequence ends) would.

That would, imho, male sense and simplify alot thehandling of these cases.

Incidentally, as far as I can see, BttS might be the only exception here...

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BTTS is the one I'm least sure of, but I'm sticking to my reasoning. (Though I notice Saje uses the same reasoning as I do in the other thread to come to a different answer to me)

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2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

It's still Jaecar's activation, and while you roll the parting blow dice Jaecar is the active model, even if you're currently interrupting another model's action.

Agreed!

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Chisel and Brick are on Team A.

Granite and Mallet are on Team B.

- Chisel applies Feel My Pain to Mallet.

- Chisel takes a Parting Blow from Mallet and deals them 2 damage with Feel My Pain

- If Granite is within 4" of the model that suffers damage from Feel My Pain, she gets to make a Jog. Jogs are Advances, not Repositions, so Between A Rock... can happen.

- Granite ends her jog and gets Counter Charged by Brick.

 

Does Brick get to apply Knockback and Concussion? I think he should - IMO if you move charts then any respositioning effects aren't 'caused' by the parting blow any more. X can be caused by Y and Y caused by Z without the property having to be transitive (i.e 'X is by Z' following from the previous), otherwise you get into silly chains like this.

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Oops, correct about Granite's between a rock. My mistake.

A follow up question then...

A Masons player moves triggering a Parting Blow. The Parting Blow causes damage triggering Between a Rock... . Between a Rock moves to trigger Unpredictable Movement for an enemy model. Does the enemy model get to make the Unpredictable reposition or is that caused by the parting blow?

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On 17/03/2017 at 8:58 AM, Gauntlet said:

I see Back to the Shadows as a binary on/off toggle checked at the end of the activation. Did you cause damage this activation? Great, you get BTTS. It doesn't need to look into specific causes of damage. 

 

This is correct. 

 

On 17/03/2017 at 1:16 PM, Henry said:

Oops, correct about Granite's between a rock. My mistake.

A follow up question then...

A Masons player moves triggering a Parting Blow. The Parting Blow causes damage triggering Between a Rock... . Between a Rock moves to trigger Unpredictable Movement for an enemy model. Does the enemy model get to make the Unpredictable reposition or is that caused by the parting blow?

The enemy model does get to make the Unpredictable Movement. 

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The Parting Blow isn't causing the Reposition, in this case. The Parting Blow caused Jaecar to inflict damage. 

In the other case, the Parting Blow caused damage. This caused Granite to make a Jog. Which caused Unpredictable Movement to trigger. The Parting Blow did not directly cause Unpredictable Movement to trigger, it caused Granite to make a Jog. 

I understand the 'Cannot cause a Reposition' language is perhaps getting a touch unclear now that there are increasingly many ways in the game for various effects to trigger going down the chain from a Parting Blow, but only the Parting Blow itself cannot directly cause a Reposition. 

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1 hour ago, TheLieutenant said:

The Parting Blow isn't causing the Reposition, in this case. The Parting Blow caused Jaecar to inflict damage. 

Are we talking about Swift Strikes or Back to the Shadows here, because if we were talking about Egret then this line of reasoning could be used for the wording of both? (This isn't too serious a question as I'm aware of the separate rulings, but I just wanted to highlight that the rulings aren't necessarily straight forward to follow.) 

 

So for a bit of clarity are we saying that a parting blow cannot cause repositions as a direct result and at the time of the parting blow action (Swift Strikes / Blood Dance / Knockback). Repositions which happen after the parting blow action has concluded are allowed (Back to the Shadows). Repositions caused by other actions which are caused by a parting blow are allowed (Between a Rock... triggering repositions).

Have I got that right? If so where does Escaping Fate fit into this? One could argue that the parting blow only caused damage and so, like Back to the Shadows, did not directly cause the reposition. On the other hand the parting blow action has not yet concluded and there has been no intervening action that we can say has directly caused the reposition, so the parting blow caused the reposition.

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13 minutes ago, Henry said:

Have I got that right? If so where does Escaping Fate fit into this? One could argue that the parting blow only caused damage and so, like Back to the Shadows, did not directly cause the reposition. On the other hand the parting blow action has not yet concluded and there has been no intervening action that we can say has directly caused the reposition, so the parting blow caused the reposition.

I think it's something like this:

- Parting Blows can result in Damage, KD and/or Tackles. These are part of the Parting Blow itself.

- Repositions which trigger from the Damage/KD/Tackle (like Swift Strikes triggering off the damage) cannot happen because they are caused by the Parting Blow directly.

- Other effects which trigger from the Damage/KD/Tackle can themselves cause further effects which result in repositions. So Lashing Out can cause a reposition from Escaping Fate because LO is caused by the PB, but Escaping Fate isn't.

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I like the wording you use to explain what "cause" means and it seems to fit with every ruling TheLieutenant has given, so unless someone rules otherwise I'll personally be using that as a guideline from now on.

On 3/24/2017 at 3:47 PM, Gauntlet said:

- Repositions which trigger from the Damage/KD/Tackle cannot happen because they are caused by the Parting Blow directly.

 

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