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Something else which I probably played wrong within most of my playtests until I realized it... I didn't realize that the Shaft icon thing or actually what it stands for is something only relevant for characters, while I initially played it like that "Crossbow Hollo" and "Silver Knight Greatsbowman" weren't able to attack if the target would be on their same node. But this actually doesn't seem to be the case, so I'm wondering:

Considering they are both attacking the aggro player, is there any situation where it makes any difference if they move first (Crossbow Hollow) or if they attack before they move (Silver Knight Greatsbowman)? With how I played it, it made a difference, but if they are able to attack from everywhere, why even have movement and attack in a different order? What am I missing?

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Possibly will have an impact with some pieces of equipment we don't know about yet maybe? Isn't one of the once per spark abilities essentially a counter? There could be a few things that being one space further away before attacking could change.

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And one more question based on the horrible AngryJoe stream (@SFG You should really consider an official playthrough! This is the most horrible advertisement for your game (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/137220002) and god knows how much other reviewers got wrong with the time they've invested! I think none of these has invested even close to as much time as I did with my poor poor digital PnP version - and still waiting for my copy! :() where they mess up aaaaalll kinds of rules within that 4 hours... Really, it's like an accident I have to watch at...

Anyway, ignoring all that, I saw a certain tile setup and was woundering what would happen if... So, that's the situation:

Now obviously for the "Large Hollow Soldier" it wouldn't matter, and I'm not aware of any grunt that attacks with a range of 1 and pushes with that attack, but assuming there is one or better will come at some point in the future. If the character would get attacked (by a push attack with range 1) in that situation he wouldn't be able to get pushed to any adjacent node that is farther away since he has the chest in his back. And the same would be the case if the character would be in the corner where the treasure chest is above and if the Hollow Soldier would be attacking from where the character is standing above. Now, would you still get pushed to one of the adjacent nodes left/right - likely not on the attackers node - or could you in this instance decide to not move (like you got smashed in the chest/wall behind you but keep your position after all)?

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Replect said:

And one more question based on the horrible AngryJoe stream (@SFG You should really consider an official playthrough! This is the most horrible advertisement for your game (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/137220002) and god knows how much other reviewers got wrong with the time they've invested! I think none of these has invested even close to as much time as I did with my poor poor digital PnP version - and still waiting for my copy! :() where they mess up aaaaalll kinds of rules within that 4 hours... Really, it's like an accident I have to watch at...

Anyway, ignoring all that, I saw a certain tile setup and was woundering what would happen if... So, that's the situation:

Now obviously for the "Large Hollow Soldier" it wouldn't matter, and I'm not aware of any grunt that attacks with a range of 1 and pushes with that attack, but assuming there is one or better will come at some point in the future. If the character would get attacked (by a push attack with range 1) in that situation he wouldn't be able to get pushed to any adjacent node that is farther away since he has the chest in his back. And the same would be the case if the character would be in the corner where the treasure chest is above and if the Hollow Soldier would be attacking from where the character is standing above. Now, would you still get pushed to one of the adjacent nodes left/right - likely not on the attackers node - or could you in this instance decide to not move (like you got smashed in the chest/wall behind you but keep your position after all)?

 

 

I would say that's the same situation like in the rule book p.30 stage 5. So you would be pushed on a node on the left or right

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4 minutes ago, GolmarKlonk said:

I would say that's the same situation like in the rule book p.30 stage 5. So you would be pushed on a node on the left or right

It's not the same, since in your mentioned instance the character got pushed through an enemy who moves onto the characters node, so you have nodes farther away at that moment - any adjacent node to the enemy, while though only 2 are valid options here because of it being a boss and the arc rules). In my instance the attack is coming from the adjacent node, so all other nodes I could get pushed to are keeping the same distance.

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Now there probably is the first valid question within that messy AngryJoe stream which I didn't think about. Based on this:

"Some movement behaviours include an attack of their own. Movement attacks cause physical damage that characters can oppose with a block or dodge roll as usual. This attack targets all characters on each node the enemy moves into. (Note that it does not target characters on the node on which the enemy started.) If an enemy moves 2 or more nodes, this can even result in the same character being attacked multiple times as the enemy tramples and smashes its way through its hapless victim."

Assume he "Large Hollow Soldier" stands on the same node with the Warrior before his activation and the Knight is on any of the adjacent nodes, another one with the aggro token is farther away.

Now I thought he would attack the Warrior, since he is the closest (he is on the same node), pushing him away from his node (without doing damage) and then following the Warrior on the node he got pushed on to since he is the Soldiers target - even though the Knight has the higher taunt level and both are in that moment 1 node away - getting pushed again, now for 5 damage.

But that "(Note that it does not target characters on the node on which the enemy started.) " could mean:

- He pushes the Knight (assuming he will do that anyway) for no damage, but actually targets the Warrior and moves onto the Warriors node for 5 damage, since he won't target characters on the node on which he started based on that rulebook statement.

 

So, "it does not target" only means it won't make damage or it actually doesn't even goes for that character, even though it's closest!?

 

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As for the first question about pushing, really not sure. You make valid points. If I had to say I'd say that since there are no available nodes farther away from the attacker, and it wouldn't make sense to go closer (clearly) it's moving into one that is equal distance. I kind of feel like not moving at all isn't right. But again not sure at all on that point.

 

As for the ember token, pretty sure you can't.  It was stated at one point that you can't save them up for later, and if you could just exchange them, it would cause a similar effect.  Especially since it says to discard the ember card upon discovering it, so as to reinforce the idea it isn't a commodity to be traded.

 

Finally, the movement push attack (Large Hollow Soldier).  In that case, where there is one character in the same node (Warrior) and another in an adjacent mode (Knight), I can say with some confidence this happens: Target of the movement is the Warrior.  As is clearly stated, the target of the movement is decided at the beginning of the movement, not at each stage of the movement.  So, just in term of movement it would go: Movement begins, Warrior is pushed out of node.  LHS, having 1 movement point left, moves towards him again.  Warrior is again pushed out of node.  Let's also say for the sake of argument, that he was silly and he chose to be pushed the first time into the node the Knight was in, causing him to suffer the second push as well.  The LHS moves toward him for as long as his movement allows.

Now the tricky part.  At the beginning of the movement, the Warrior is in the same node, and therefore is not subject to LHS's trample attack. However afterwards, he is no longer in the same node, and therefore subject to it just like the Knight.  So the Warrior would take no damage from the first push, because he is being pushed out of LHS's starting node, but will take damage subsequently, because LHS is moving into his new node.  And the Knight, clearly, would take the damage as well, as LHS is moving into his node (That is to say the node both characters occupy)  

 

Hope that was understandable!

 

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@alxndrhll

 

On 14.2.2017 at 4:14 PM, Replect said:

About the Boss clarification:

If I understand correctly, that basically means!?

  • equal/more than 1 movement left towards target    -> turn to face with target centered in front arc before each single move (or don't move in case of on same node without push)
  • No movement (left)   -> don't turn
  • equal/more than 1 movement left away from target    -> Only turn (to face target centered in front arc) before doing the first move, no further turning
  • Any move without target    -> don't turn

Right? :)

You actually confirmed that, but I think this is actually wrong or my summary wasn't very clear, talking about:

No movement (left)   -> don't turn

Reason because I'm questioning that now is because of the "Eletric Breath" I've seen from the Gargoyle boss. He actually has a movement icon towards the closest player, but it's a movement of 0, which I haven't seen before on any other behavior card. But since it's there, I assume the purpose of that movement is actually just to have him turn to it's target without any actual movement. So, is is possible that my statement is only correct like this:

No movement left, after it moved at least 1 node  -> don't turn

??

I think all others are still correct though?

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A question! If someone would be so kind as to answer...

Going through the core rules in preparation of receiving the core box (HURRY UP PARCELFORCE!!!) and I'm going through the boss heat up mechanics. In the rules on page 28 it states that you take one random Heat Up behaviour card and shuffle it into the behaviour deck. The key word here is shuffle...

Now on the Dancer's specific heat up mechanic is the text "Unpredictable Onslaught: After a heat up behaviour card is drawn and resolved, shuffle the Dancer's behaviour deck.".

So what am I missing here? Why do we need the dancer's heat up mechanic to tell us to shuffle if it's already a common step in the manual? Or is the change in the Dancer's case to draw a behaviour card, resolve it as a separate attack/action, and then carry on as normal? Presumable with the Dancer's regular turn right after (considering the heat up damage most likely occurred on the player turn)?

Normally I can work stuff like this out, but I'm afraid I'm drawing a blank.

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58 minutes ago, Chromatism said:

A question! If someone would be so kind as to answer...

Going through the core rules in preparation of receiving the core box (HURRY UP PARCELFORCE!!!) and I'm going through the boss heat up mechanics. In the rules on page 28 it states that you take one random Heat Up behaviour card and shuffle it into the behaviour deck. The key word here is shuffle...

Now on the Dancer's specific heat up mechanic is the text "Unpredictable Onslaught: After a heat up behaviour card is drawn and resolved, shuffle the Dancer's behaviour deck.".

So what am I missing here? Why do we need the dancer's heat up mechanic to tell us to shuffle if it's already a common step in the manual? Or is the change in the Dancer's case to draw a behaviour card, resolve it as a separate attack/action, and then carry on as normal? Presumable with the Dancer's regular turn right after (considering the heat up damage most likely occurred on the player turn)?

Normally I can work stuff like this out, but I'm afraid I'm drawing a blank.

Normally you have a set pattern of moves for a boss, i.e. when the behavior cards run out, you don't shuffle, just flip it back. Then it heats up, and you have to shuffle in the heat up card. But then you get a new pattern for the boss, same deal, you don't shuffle when you run out, just flip. This means the pattern is going to be different after heat up, but this new pattern does not change.  

The key with the Dancer is that every time you draw the heat up card, you shuffle the deck again. So effectively, after she heats up, you never know what she's going to do next (fitting name, that Unpredictable Onslaught). Note it doesn't say to shuffle a new heat up card in. You can only ever have 1 at a time. Just means to shuffle the cards already in play (Both yet to be played and in the discard so to speak).  Hope that clears it up!

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15 minutes ago, Entrox Licher said:

Normally you have a set pattern of moves for a boss, i.e. when the behavior cards run out, you don't shuffle, just flip it back. Then it heats up, and you have to shuffle in the heat up card. But then you get a new pattern for the boss, same deal, you don't shuffle when you run out, just flip. This means the pattern is going to be different after heat up, but this new pattern does not change.  

The key with the Dancer is that every time you draw the heat up card, you shuffle the deck again. So effectively, after she heats up, you never know what she's going to do next (fitting name, that Unpredictable Onslaught). Note it doesn't say to shuffle a new heat up card in. You can only ever have 1 at a time. Just means to shuffle the cards already in play (Both yet to be played and in the discard so to speak).  Hope that clears it up!

Well that makes more sense! Thank you very much for that. Clears it up perfectly.

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17 hours ago, Entrox Licher said:

Now the tricky part.  At the beginning of the movement, the Warrior is in the same node, and therefore is not subject to LHS's trample attack. However afterwards, he is no longer in the same node, and therefore subject to it just like the Knight.  So the Warrior would take no damage from the first push, because he is being pushed out of LHS's starting node, but will take damage subsequently, because LHS is moving into his new node.  And the Knight, clearly, would take the damage as well, as LHS is moving into his node (That is to say the node both characters occupy)

That's the tricky part as you've said. Question for me is, does "(Note that it does not target characters on the node on which the enemy started.) " mean characters on LHS's node at the beginning of LHS's activtation can't be targets (in this case the warrior - and with that only can be damaged - collateral dmg so to speak - if the warrior happens to get pushed on the knights node, who would be the valid target here) or can only not be damaged initially but still be the target? I didn't feel like you had an answer to that question too... :)

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6 hours ago, Replect said:

That's the tricky part as you've said. Question for me is, does "(Note that it does not target characters on the node on which the enemy started.) " mean characters on LHS's node at the beginning of LHS's activtation can't be targets (in this case the warrior - and with that only can be damaged - collateral dmg so to speak - if the warrior happens to get pushed on the knights node, who would be the valid target here) or can only not be damaged initially but still be the target? I didn't feel like you had an answer to that question too... :)

The key here I think is the targeting concept. Because it is two separate things to be the target of the movement, and target of the attack. The movement, fairly clearly states that it targets the nearest players (so the Warrior). Then, continuing with the rules it says that all characters in a node LGH moves into are targets of the attack. But the attack isn't what dictates the behavior, it's really just a consequence of his movement. When it says it does not target characters on the node on which the enemy started it refers to the attack, not the movement. The rules even specify that this sort of move attack can have an instance where the enemy is chasing down a player, causing the damage multiple times (though not the case here, shows that LHS chases as he pushes).  

Essentially what I'm saying is this. The movement target is chosen at the beginning of the behavior as per all the usual rules for deciding nearest players (using aggro and taunt to tie break, etc.).  In our example it would be the Warrior.  And remember that the rules specify that you select the target of the movement at the beginning of it, not at each step. So the Warrior is the target of the movement, i.e. LHS is chasing the Warrior.  Then the targets of the attack on the other hand, are determined each time the LHS enteres a node.  In which case, the Warrior is guaranteed to suffer a 5 damage attack, and if he's foolish enough to be pushed into the Knight's node, the Knight will suffer it too.

 

Hope that was little clearer!

Of course we can't be certain, but I am fairly sure I am interpreting all of this correctly, it makes sense per everything specified in the rules.  

Cheers!

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7 minutes ago, Entrox Licher said:

Hope that was little clearer!

Of course we can't be certain, but I am fairly sure I am interpreting all of this correctly, it makes sense per everything specified in the rules. 

That was very clear and is what I'm thinking too, but that playthrough stream - even though considering how badly they got things wrong - caused me to question my understanding about that one.

Hopefully Alex will find some time sooner or later to confirm/answer all the questions that came up since his last visit! :)

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If a Move ability has a Push with a Damage value, it can be Blocked or Dodged. Where is the Dodge value derived from? For basic enemies I'd assume the same as their attacks, but what about with Bosses?

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6 minutes ago, Ashraam said:

If a Move ability has a Push with a Damage value, it can be Blocked or Dodged. Where is the Dodge value derived from? For basic enemies I'd assume the same as their attacks, but what about with Bosses?

The Damage value there represents an actual attack. That is why it is under attacks in the rules. Therefore, the attack has a dodge value, just like any other attack. The basic enemies all have the dodge value for their attacks to one side. Same with the bosses, only this is on each individual behavior card. Just imagine it as an attack, not an add on to the movement. 

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1 minute ago, Entrox Licher said:

The Damage value there represents an actual attack. That is why it is under attacks in the rules. Therefore, the attack has a dodge value, just like any other attack. The basic enemies all have the dodge value for their attacks to one side. Same with the bosses, only this is on each individual behavior card, shows the dodge value. 

Okay, that goes along with my thoughts on it, but I wasn't sure since boss behaviors are so different. Thanks.  :)

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On 4/24/2017 at 4:35 AM, Replect said:

And since I've a run kind of: Can someone give the ember token to someone else (like we can do with gear on the bonfire tile)?

Nope. You cannot give away any of the tokens on your player board (ember, luck, estus, or heroic).

Once you decide who gets the ember token, that's who has it.

56 minutes ago, Ashraam said:

Okay, that goes along with my thoughts on it, but I wasn't sure since boss behaviors are so different. Thanks.  :)

All boss behaviours that include any kind of attack have a "dodge difficulty" value on the behaviour card.

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Since non-targeted boss movement happens in a straight line, what happens if a boss is one node from a wall and has a "Move 2" action in a straight line towards the wall?

 

Edit- My assumption is they "run in place" against the wall like bosses often do in the game.  :D

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13 minutes ago, Ashraam said:

Since non-targeted boss movement happens in a straight line, what happens if a boss is one node from a wall and has a "Move 2" action in a straight line towards the wall?

 

Edit- My assumption is they "run in place" against the wall like bosses often do in the game.  :D

Correct! But a slightly modified situation (I asked earlier and waiting for clarification): What if the boss is already at the wall - let's say on the right facing north-east in the middle/bottom 3 node line. Now if he moves 1+ forward, would he move up or would it still be considered to run against the wall? That's where I'm struggeling now.

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11 minutes ago, Replect said:

Correct! But a slightly modified situation (I asked earlier and waiting for clarification): What if the boss is already at the wall - let's say on the right facing north-east in the middle/bottom 3 node line. Now if he moves 1+ forward, would he move up or would it still be considered to run against the wall? That's where I'm struggeling now.

I feel like he would probably stay in place, but an argument could be made for either. Like he's "sliding" along the wall.

I'd probably default to leaving him in place however, unless we hear otherwise. His forward arc would still be pointing out-of-bounds.

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1 hour ago, Ashraam said:

Since non-targeted boss movement happens in a straight line, what happens if a boss is one node from a wall and has a "Move 2" action in a straight line towards the wall?

 

Edit- My assumption is they "run in place" against the wall like bosses often do in the game.  :D

Yes!  Unless said boss is Vordt of the Boreal Valley...then he flips around and keeps moving!

 

These mega boss mechanics are going to be awesome.

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