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Hi alxndrhll and Replect,

Your conversation about this rulebook looks great, and I'm sure it will give a nice written one.

I may have missed something about poison token, since token is remove at the end of character activation, it means poison does only damage at the time it occurs ? So it exludes damage over time ?

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36 minutes ago, Replect said:

Reading your comment and that paragraph means from the tokens in the rulebook, all tokens but the bleed token will be removed when a model ends its activation? Or am I lost in translation here, since I'm confused that you say "there is no way to remove conditions outside of them procc'ing/ending an encounter before they proc." while the paragraph talks about specific tokens which are already removed at the end of a models activation, not at the end of an encounter...

 

All tokens bar bleed are removed at the end of a models activation, in a case where a model is suffering a condition but the encounter is finished before that model activates the token is just removed with no effect.
 

24 minutes ago, Arcueid said:

Hi alxndrhll and Replect,

Your conversation about this rulebook looks great, and I'm sure it will give a nice written one.

I may have missed something about poison token, since token is remove at the end of character activation, it means poison does only damage at the time it occurs ? So it exludes damage over time ?

Correct, poison does damage once at the end of the models activation and then clears, so doesn't cause recurring damage over time. This was for streamlining reasons as much as anything else.

Cheers,
Alex

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1 hour ago, alxndrhll said:

Correct, poison does damage once at the end of the models activation and then clears, so doesn't cause recurring damage over time. This was for streamlining reasons as much as anything else.

Cheers,
Alex

 

So then, order of events could come into play. Does killing the last enemy of an encounter end the encounter immediately? Or if a poisoned player kills the last enemy, does he still take the poison damage at the end of his turn and THEN the encounter ends?

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30 minutes ago, Ashraam said:

 

So then, order of events could come into play. Does killing the last enemy of an encounter end the encounter immediately? Or if a poisoned player kills the last enemy, does he still take the poison damage at the end of his turn and THEN the encounter ends?

'If the party defeats all the enemies and no characters are killed, the party wins. Remove all black and red cubes from thecharacters’ endurance bars.'

Encounter ends as soon as the last enemy dies.

Cheers,
Alex

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52 minutes ago, alxndrhll said:
'If the party defeats all the enemies and no characters are killed, the party wins. Remove all black and red cubes from thecharacters’ endurance bars.'

Encounter ends as soon as the last enemy dies.

Cheers,
Alex

Works for me, thanks! That's the kind of thing my table would argue about for a good 20 minutes.  :lol:

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11 hours ago, Ashraam said:

Works for me, thanks! That's the kind of thing my table would argue about for a good 20 minutes.  :lol:

Yeah, I even would see me argue with myself! :D And I would have that bad taste when playing, whenever a rule comes into play I'm not totally sure if I use it as meant to be...

@alxndrhll

Is the rulebook we'll get (and you have to your hands) actually final or is it still possible that you change wording or such for things you have to realize are not as clear/obvious as you actually expected based on what you see here or somewhere else? 

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Based on the feedback here, SFG has made significant alterations and clarifications to the rulebook (according to Frank Jaeger). They will probably continue to review and edit it until the deadline arrives for the file to be sent to the printers. The rulebook we have access to is outdated. As questions continue to arise (if any more do) SFG will surely make any alterations as they see fit. It's good business practice.

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So, I've updated the intial post with all questions + answers. Hopefully I didn't miss anything... A summary probably would make sense, but I currently don't have the time available to do so, so I hope this will do it and works for people looking for an overview...

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@alxndrhll

Sometimes things seem clear, until someone ask a question, you are on the way to answer it and realize you aren't sure anymore if it's true what you are going to say...

So, I copy & paste a question and the answer from someone in the KS comments to here in hope you can clarify:

 

Daniel Korbely

Next little rule question: 
(Boss movement)

Change the boss during his movement (more than 1 node) the direction? (Follow target step by step)

Example (p.30). 
If the char choose after the first push to move to the south node (its still in the arc) the boss will with the 1st move follow this 
Char to that node. Now the character is push again to an node left or right (at the wall). Change the boss now his move direction to follow this character or remain the boss at this not?

 

Ashraam

@Daniel If I understand the rules correctly, there's two answers to your question about bosses moving. If the move indicates it is a move towards a target it will continue to move towards that target until it is out of movement. So if it does push the target it will change facing to follow.

However, if the move does NOT target a character, then the boss simply moves the stated distance without changing direction or facing. (The exception being if the card states a turn move, of course.)

So, in the Blade Dance card on page 29, the Dancer would move forward twice, pushing any models it encounters, but not turning during its move. Only after it is done moving does it then turn 180 degrees.

 

So, the following only counts if there is no target icon involved (page 29)?

"When a boss moves, it can move in a direction without changing its facing. It simply shifts forwards, backwards, left, or right. It does not rotate when it does so, maintaining its arc orientations."

 

If a target icon is involved, the following will overrule the above (page 29)?

"When a boss moves towards a character, turn the boss so the centre of its front arc faces an adjacent node that is closer to the character. The boss then moves forward onto that node. When moving away from a character, turn the boss so the centre of its back arc faces an adjacent node that is farther from the character.
The boss then backs up onto that node without changing its facing."

 

Does this also mean it will change facing each time within the same movement action, like in Daniel's example, where it would change facing towards the south first and in the end again change facing towards left or right, depending on where the character will get pushed to along the wall?

 

If the example on page 30 wouldn't have a push involved, the monster wouldn't move at all, since it already is on the node of its target, correct? If at all, it would turn, to face it's target, what already is the case in this one...

 

Also, are there movements with a target icon, where the movement number is showing left or right? Or will there ever only be those with a number in the top (towards) or bottom (away from) with a target involved?

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Good post; it's probably best to ask that here.

That's how I interpreted the rules (obviously), but I'm open to the idea that may not be how they were intended. It is vague on whether or not bosses will turn if pursuing a target, since the target stayed on the movement path in the example.

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@alxndrhll and anyone else involved? :)

So, you probably have already seen the topic/discussion in the KS comments, where a few of us did some playtesting based on the information we currently have available within the rulebook and realized we have way more control about what the AI is doing than expected - not just reactive because of the characters positioning, but where the player actually directly determines what the AI is doing. Assuming we didn't miss an essential part of the rule which takes care of these situations...

We have all these situations where the player decides how the AI reacts:

NODE MODEL LIMIT

"If there are already three models on a node and another model moves onto that node, the players must push one of the three models already on the node."

"If a boss model moves onto a node that already contains a boss, the players must push the boss that was on the node first."

PUSHING

"The pushed model or models are moved onto an adjacent node chosen by the players."

ENEMY ACTIVATIONS

"For enemies with equal threat levels, players choose the order in which the enemies activate."

ENEMY MOVEMENT

"When two different nodes would take an enemy closer to where it is trying to go, the players can choose which node the enemy enters."

 

For all these, after reading through them, I thought they would come into play rather seldom and if, it wouldn't really make that much of a difference... But after playtesting I realized that this is coming into play quite regularly, especially the section from ENEMY ACTIVATIONS and ENEMY MOVEMENT (and I guess later in the game PUSHING as well when players have gear with pushed involved, though that one makes sense - we push them in a specific direction kind of), and those have quite an impact on the difficulty, since it can easily affect if an enemy actually will get in range to attack or if an enemy will end up on a node which is in the players advantage.

Talking about ENEMY ACTIVATIONS let's assume a setup with 2 sentinels, one on the characters node, and one on an adjacent node. Since both have the same threat level and the rule in that situation gives the player full control about who to activate first, we have the following 2 scenarios:

1. Since both move 1 node and push while moving, activating the sentinel on the characters node first, results in getting pushed twice (right before he moves and then when he follows that 1 node) and then getting attacked, bringing the character very likely out of range of the 2nd sentinel, which won't be able to attack because of that.

2. Would the 2nd sentinel (on the adjacent node) be activated first, he would move onto the characters node, pushing him to an adjacent node and then attacks him. After that, the other sentinel (that was on the same node before the character got pushed) is still in range to do his push and attack.

So, the players choice about the enemies activation order, just because of the "for enemies with equal threat levels..."  can result in getting attacked by both sentinels or just by one. That initially feels like more control than we should have, since this is not necessarily the result of manipulation of what the enemy is going to do in the characters activation, it's a decision the player makes in the enemies activation (where I didn't expect to have the freedom to decide things which greatly impact the result of the enemies action). So, is that working as intended?

 

Talking about ENEMY MOVEMENT for example and considering we have a ranged enemy, the AI card is saying "move farther from the target", which means the players can decide to move them closer or even on a node of another character (the one getting activated for example) in range if they wish - still farther from its current target obviously -, since I've that freedom based on "players can choose which node the enemy enters." A proper AI likely wouldn't choose that position, but since the player has the control...

Or on a trapped tile, an enemy moving towards a target, but not being able to get on the same node with the option to move onto an adjacent node with a trap or onto a free node adjacent to the target. Since the players will have the choice, they can decide to put him on the free node, so the next character close to it has less risk when going in for an attack in his activation.

 

So, I'm curious. Didn't you find another solution and because of that the players that much control in their hands about how the AI moves? Or was it on purpose because probably otherwise the players wouldn't stand a chance and the game is balanced around all that? In general, why is it how it is?

I probably just have to get used to how it seems to work, considering I'm not missing anything, but it feels a bit like exploiting, cheating or "playing against myself, since i'm controlling the characters and to a reasonable degree the enemies too".

 

Any insight/comment/explanation on this would be very much appreciated!

 

Thanks

Replect

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Also, to sum up the previous post about the boss movement question + an additional question related to that:

"When a boss moves towards a character, turn the boss so the centre of its front arc faces an adjacent node that is closer to the character."

This will be done for each node the boss moves onto (so with 2+ movement probably changes facing multiple times), considering it has a target? 

And if there is no target, it will not change facing, since this comes into play?

"When a boss moves, it can move in a direction without changing its facing. It simply shifts forwards, backwards, left, or right. It does not rotate when it does so, maintaining its arc orientations."

Now the additional question on that, related to this (the underlined part):

"When a boss moves onto a node that contains a character, place that character base-to-base with the boss at the centre of the arc that was facing the character before the boss moved. The character is then on the boss’s node and is still in that arc."

If the boss's target is in the back arc before it starts let's say a movement of 2 towards the target that is 2 nodes away. The boss now changes facing with the center to an adjacent node closer to it's target with my understanding and moves onto that node. At that moment the target is in a different arc than before, let's say the right arc (it could be either front, left or right, depending on the route the boss takes). Then, still considering I understand the first part correctly, the boss (in this example) will change facing again, in the direction of the targets node (which then means the target is in the front arc now)  and then moves onto it.

Now, which arc the characters on that node are meant to be positioned in? They have been in the back arc first, then in the right one and in the front arc last. Are the characters meant to be positioned in the back arc in this situation? 

And what if 3 characters are on that node, one will get pushed because of the model limit... to which arc will that one be pushed? Which one is he considered to be standing in before that push so to speak?

Thanks in advance! As earlier said, any support in providing some insight and clarifying these questions is much appreciated!

Replect

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Hi there!

While reading the rulebook I got disappointed on the souls cache mechanic. I hope being misunderstanding something even if I see how hard would be to find an alternative.

The possible souls costs in the game are four:

  • Buy equiment : 1 soul
  • Level up stat to Tier 1 : 2 souls
  • Level up stat to Tier 2 : 4 souls
  • Level up stat to Tier 3 : 8 souls

At the end of each encounter, the party is free (and has no good reason to act differently) to go back to the bonfire tile, not absolutely touching the flame and consuming all the souls they just gained (through NPCs).
Then they can proceed to the next encounter, so when would the party leave their souls where they die, if they can alway approach any encounter souls-free?!?

In particular having 4 players means gaining 8 souls per encounter (which is the higher price for something) so party don't even have to stack them to reach a higher number of souls through multiple encounters.

So do the party risk the souls loss only if playing with less than 4 player and trying to reach 8 souls to unlock a tier3 stat? (also playing alone and unlocking tier2 too)

Thanks in advance and have a good time everybody!

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@strongale

Spontaneously I think that's a good question, someone from SFG though can probably easily give explanation for why it's not that easy...

For me it's difficult to comment with the information we have, but considering that you only upgrade stats to reach the requirements for certain gear and the total amount of souls a party can get, will not be enough to upgrade any players stats to what they need for gear they, at the given situation, don't know the requirements for. Assuming that the treasure deck is too big and the variance in stat requirements to high to know that in advance (also then hopefully not after a couple of sessions), would likely mean your party has to hold on to their souls until they have a pool of reasonable treasure as an option to select from and know where it makes sense to put them in for stat upgrades!?

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@ReplectI agree with you: it's a possible way to justify this mechanic. 

Anyway being one of the most important aspects of the videogame, I fill it a bit transparent in the boardgame experience. 
Anyway the sparks mechanics make this unsolvable : in the videogame, every chapter in his own way,  you can spend your souls going back to fire/firelink/safeplace, but this means respawning of enemies because you touch al least a fire in some way. The boardgame instead uses sparks not only to limit death, but also to limit farming.
Conclusion : if interacting with NPC would reset enemies, you could farm endlessly and be sure to win the game, which is a videogame-like aim not a boardgame one. 

I'm not seeing any easy solution for this. They surely tested it and can tell us how often they had good reasons to risk souls during the exploration.

Surely before a boss/miniboss, I would spend everything i have (or the most) to minimize my risk.

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I think there will be a lot more risk of losing souls in the campaign. Leveling up your stats and purchasing treasure both become more expensive. You also have to save up to replinish your sparks as you go.

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Seems like they are way too busy since end of January (which is good kind of, assuming because of our DS board game!? ;))! I still hope the current questions out there will get covered sooner or later... I guess as long as answers/feedback is present before we got the game in our hands, we should be good! :)

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Just to clarify quickly, and this isn't me being abrassive so I apologise in advance if that's how this is taken but I'm here to clarify rules deemed unclear... and I tend to do this in my own time. So I won't be here to justify design/development decisions, you can come to your own conclusions but I won't be explaining every aspect of decision we made when developing the game. General rule of thumb, we did things the way we did because it was the obvious best way to do it after the extensive playtesting we've performed.

Onto the clarifications:
Boss movement
When a boss targets it moves towards it's target, if the targets direction changes slightly due to a push (still within the arc) the boss will turn to face with the target centered in the arc and then move towards the target.
If a boss moves back (away) from a target it will turn so the target is centered in the front arc and then move backwards the stated amount of nodes from the target.
If the bos doesn't target it will move in the stated direction, the stated number of nodes.
If there is no push and the boss is on the same node as the target, the boss would turn to face but not move anywhere... General rule of thumb, boss movement always has pushes on it so this isn't something you'll see.

Model Limit clarifications:
Nothing much to say on this other than the interactions you mention are intended, though the variation in types of grunts and character builds mean there are always decisions to be made. Early on is it a viable tactic to position one PC to 'tank' 3 Hollow Soldiers, most certainly assuming they can take hits from 2 of them... And then when the 3rd Hollow Soldier moves in just push the PC out to avoid the 3rd hit. Later on when you have a PC stacked with Block die it's often better to push out one of the Hollow Soldiers because you're not concerned about taking any damage from them. So yeah, we know you can do it in some cases and it's not an exploit in any way, shape or form.

Cheers,
Alex

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@alxndrhll

First of all, thank you for taking your time (even more if you do this in your own time)! As I said earlier, this is very much appreciated, it really is!

Second, I don't take your comment as you being abrasive or something like that. I always meant to have this thread to talk about (for us players - or for at least a couple of us ;)) unclear rules and I don't want you or someone (to feel like you have) to justify for anything here, so sorry if it did sound like that.

In that specific point about "enemy control" I was mainly curious about the decision process (not to question it, just to get some insight - for the same reason someone would watch a documentary for a game/movie kind of)! :) Probably more in this case, I was looking for a clarification that the game is balanced around players taking advantage of that "enemy control" situations, so I can feel good about if I'm doing well in a game-session, not feel like I just do well because I lowered the difficulty by "exploiting" something...

 

About the Boss clarification:

If I understand correctly, that basically means!?

  • equal/more than 1 movement left towards target    -> turn to face with target centered in front arc before each single move (or don't move in case of on same node without push)
  • No movement (left)   -> don't turn
  • equal/more than 1 movement left away from target    -> Only turn (to face target centered in front arc) before doing the first move, no further turning
  • Any move without target    -> don't turn

Right? :)

 

 

 

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I've just watched this NY Toy Fair demo:

And while reading through the Warrior special action "BERSERK CHARGE":

"Once per spark during his activation, the Warrior may move one node without spending stamina. The next range 0 attack he makes costs 0 stamina and gains [Node icon/attack]"

I guess that range 0 attack is also necessary to happen during the same activation the warrior moves that one node without spending stamina, it just isn't stated 100% clear, no? It could be read as move one node without spending stamina during his activation (when using that spark) and then the next range 0 attack in this or any following activation would cost 0 stamina and gains [Node icon/attack]... If the latter actually is true, likely only in the current encounter though I guess. And if really the case, how do you keep track of if you used that range 0 attack already in any of the following activations?

What is correct?

 

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Also, considering the understanding of the rules, I just figured that the guy from SFG (Hi there! ;)) showcasing the game in the linked video is resolving the AI card of the dancer incorrectly right here:

 

Actually the boss moves forward 1 node and then turns 90° to the left... In this case though he turns him first before moving 1 node... That isn't right, is it? :)

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Aaaand another quesiton just arised after looking at the special ability of the Dancer:

"After a heat up behaviour cars is drawn and resolved, shuffle the Dancer's behaviour deck"

Do I put all resolved cards (including the just resolved heat up card) back in the draw deck and then shuffle the deck or does that mean I shuffle only the draw deck (considering there are still cards to draw) and keep the resolved cards deck where it is?

 

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1. In some podcast interviews the warrior once per spark ability was discussed. It gives a free move and attack to be used during the turn it was activated. Apparently there is some depth of strategy in using it as someone on the design team said that just recently he discovered a new strategy with it even after playing so many times in play test and development. Also, keep in mind that according to the latest update, that player board is not the final production copy and some text may have changed.

2. The boss is turned to the player with the aggro token if the card states it. Otherwise it just charges forward in the direction it's already facing before turning. In either case, it will turn after it moves. 

3. Again, this was discussed briefly in a podcast interview. All the cards, including the heat up card that was just resolved and any other discarded cards get shuffled together and the deck starts fresh.

I don't represent SFG, but I've been following development closely and absorbing all of the information I can, so keep that in mind while reading my comments. SFG has focused on two things during the development of the DS game 1) Making it feel tense like Dark Souls the video game and 2) keeping it simple and streamlined. In general, I would say when interpreting a rule, keep it simple and don't overthink it. There's no need to overanalyze a sentence and try to read between the lines. They want a user-friendly experience for all of the players.

Thats my two cents. Thanks for creating this thread, and for all of the contributions you've made to the KS community, Steven. 

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