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Steve_M

Placing Bases On Obstructions

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I wanted some clarification about placing models on obstructions in regards to 3D terrain pieces. In the rulebook(p48) it mentions about how models can move onto obstructions assuming they have sufficient room to position the base. I had always assumed this meant that there had to be a flat area for the base to stand on to avoid models being positioned balanced on features like fences.

However I was watching back some of the Worlds stream and saw bases being placed on 3d obstructions where even placing a proxy base was almost impossible(if I remember correctly the base had to be hovered above the terrain piece until the player got another dodge). So is my assumption of this rule wrong? Should all obstructions be treated as effectively 2D pieces that you can move into similar to forests and types of ground?

 

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Yes I saw this too, Steve Newton was holding an inf token on top of the scenery while he did some action that allowed him to move again.

I always thought the model had to be able to physically fit on the terrain so interested to hear this one. It opens up tactical options if you can get on top, so would be nice if we could "stand" on anything.

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I've been wondering about this too.  The thing is, if the model has to be able to physically fit on the 3D terrain, wouldn't it be more beneficial to play on 2D terrain where the model will always be able to fit?  When I TO tournaments, I just rule that they can proxy someone on the 3D terrain even if the model doesn't fit perfectly, because usually there's a mix of 2D and 3D terrain on the different tables that we have to scrounge up to use, so it's not really fair if you just get "lucky" to be on a 2D terrain table and can stand in an obstruction while the person next to you can't.

 

Either way a clarification would be nice (and maybe I'll order more 2D terrain if the ruling is that the model has to be able to stand on the terrain :P)

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I've always assumed that the "If you have sufficient room to position the base" section just means there has to be enough space for a base to physically fit.

If one of my models moves on to an obstruction, I could probably position my base such that it is balanced, eventually, but:

- I don't want to knock my models over and damage them

- Using a proxy base saves time in this instance.

Just because the model is theoretically able to actually fit on the terrain doesn't mean you have to put it there if it risks damaging it.

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28 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

Just because the model is theoretically able to actually fit on the terrain doesn't mean you have to put it there if it risks damaging it.

Agreed, though I think a few of us want to know if it's not physically possible to place the model (or a proxy) on the obstruction, or it's precarious, is that legal, since that could be the only spot you can get into range to score/pass/melee someone, etc...  And the differences between 2D and 3D terrain (on 2D, EVERYWHERE on the obstruction is safe/possible to stand on). 

Any help from the Lawyer's Guild?  @TheLieutenant @TimW?

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I've also wondered about this. I also saw the worlds finals where I think the commentators said something like "he (Newton) needs a two inch dodge from his playbook to get onto the obstruction". Does the "sufficient room to position the base" mean that the whole base need to fit on the obstruction?

 

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I've always been a little curious about this too. In my local gaming group we always use 3D terrain from the 40k tables, and there's no putting models on those things in anyway that could be considered a stable position. So it's really not an issue.

Last weekend, we went out of town for a GB tournament and all their boards had 2D terrain on them. Remembering that I could hop up on top of obstacles if I could fit my base on them, I did just that. My opponent immediately chided me for not having enough movement to get my model completely on top of the obstruction. I was able to get about 3/4 of the base on the terrain with about 1/4 hanging off the side. It was all just a template of a crate laying on the pitch so I didn't see the issue; but I'd never really played with 2D terrain so I just back my model up and went with it. 

So is there any additional guidance about having 100% of a model within the footprint of an obstacle for it to be a legal placement?

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Interesting, I've alway played it that if you can't get your WHOLE base on the obstruction you can't get on it. 

Typical example is the Boxes people use, you can't fit a whole base on top of any box so we play as it you can't go on top at all. If you can, that sounds like a super messy way to play a game. Ending B2B you'd essentially have to "guess" where you end as the base you're intending to be B2B with is hovering above you. Do melee zones take into account if I''m 2" higher etc? 

 

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48 minutes ago, NowYouSeeMe said:

Interesting, I've alway played it that if you can't get your WHOLE base on the obstruction you can't get on it. 

Typical example is the Boxes people use, you can't fit a whole base on top of any box so we play as it you can't go on top at all. If you can, that sounds like a super messy way to play a game. Ending B2B you'd essentially have to "guess" where you end as the base you're intending to be B2B with is hovering above you. Do melee zones take into account if I''m 2" higher etc? 

 

Page 15 says, "Distances are always measured on a horizontal plane."  So ignore any vertical distances. Although, I guess you could have an instance where two bases would technically be overlapping on a horizontal plane because one base is over another base because of an obstacle one model is on. 

My main issue with 'completely on top of' obstacles is that models are basically stuck on top of or beside terrain unless you can get more than a 1" dodge/push to move a 30mm base on/off the terrain - 1" roughly equating to 25mm. If that is the intent, so be it.

Another gray area: on page 48, the rules say, "Models may never Advance over an Obstruction during a Sprint or Charge." and, "While a Player is in control of another Player's model, that player may not move over obstructions." In this case, is over meaning 'completely over' or 'on top of'? In other words, can you charge 'on top of' a crate as you're not really going 'over' it. I feel that's splitting hairs and I doubt it, but I figured I throw that question out there. 

Thanks!

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2 hours ago, NowYouSeeMe said:

Interesting, I've alway played it that if you can't get your WHOLE base on the obstruction you can't get on it.

This is the way I have always played it and was what I always assumed was meant by the positioning of the base line in the rulebook. So you can't end any movement(reposition or otherwise) on it unless there is space but you can move over it assuming you can get your base past. Quite similar to how trap markers from the Hunters guild.

As such when designing and building terrain for my group I did a mixture of obstructions styles. Some that allowed bases to stand on them(flat topped crates) and others that you can't(typical scatter terrain, fences etc). However between Worlds and a recent game with someone new to my local group I've questioned this.

I know that miniature games always have that grey area that comes with balancing the visual appeal and usability of 3D terrain but clarification would help me out. If we can stand anywhere I can look at flatter obstructions that are easier to position bases on for my group. Otherwise I can carry on with my current mix of obstruction you can put bases on and ones you can't.

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Off the back of this....if a model is on an obstruction can he be pushed off of it? 

 

If not because of the rule if you come into contact with an obstruction you must stop, it is actually better to stand on it rather than behind which makes no thematic sense. ......

 

Im standing on top of this big barrel and you cant move me, pull me off or shift me....or....im hiding behind it and you can reach over and push me away as much as you like?

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No, a model on top of an obstruction cannot be moved by the opposing player. That's specifically called out in the Obstruction rules. Frankly I think it's the rules bending over backwards to accommodate something they needn't. I'd prefer they be illegal to place on, but only impassable to charges and sprints, but I see that that might prove difficult in some cases, such as a parting blow as a model passes over an obstruction.

As for the thread's question; I'd assumed it was primarily to prevent falling models, like the Wobbly Model Syndrome rule in 40k. As such, the way I've been playing is that if the model can balance unassisted it's a legal placement.

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I figured if you're knocked down by a parting blow while walking over an obstruction, the rule of least disturbance shunts you back the way you came, likely into the melee zone of whoever made that parting blow.

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Well, I think we've raised more questions in this thread than we've answered. Things we're answered:

  • Most people seem to agree that the entirety of a model's base must fit onto terrain in order for a model to be placed on it.
  • A model on terrain can't be pushed.

By my approximation, that still leaves:

  • Does terrain have to be 'flat' to place a model on top of it?
  • Can a 6"/8" MOV model charge 7" 'onto' terrain as to rules only prohibit charging 'over' it?
  • How do you position a knocked down model down via parting blow if it's only partially on terrain? Least disturbance?
  • Are models allowed to overlap on terrain? (Say one model is on top of a table and the other has part of its base under the same table.)

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I would add that we would like clarification on the "placing models physically onto the obstruction" when the terrain is 2D vs 3D, especially when some of the less well funded tournaments we scrounge up terrain people bring, some of which are 2D and some which are 3D.  Creates a different environment when you play on a pitch where models can be easily placed onto terrain because everything is 2D whereas depending on the 3D terrain, you might not even be able to ever be placed onto an obstruction (thus can't shield against pushes or Puppet Master).  Seems too "luck of the draw" for terrain rules.  

I'm also wondering if any of the Lawyers Guild are checking this one?  @TheLieutenant?

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2 hours ago, AdamJHilton said:

Here's another one that came up in a game yesterday to add to the list of open questions:

  • Can a model charge 'off' of an obstruction?

I'm pretty sure the answer to this one is no, since a sprint or charge can't move a character over top of an obstruction.  The fact that the models starts there doesn't make the obstruction less impassible.

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Answer is no for charging off.

Bumping thread for @TimW and other Lawyers in case this got missed in the flurry of answers you posted after the holidays.  Thank you again!

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Charging over obstacles, sure; that is pretty clear. It's been an open question in this thread for quite some time as to if a model can charge on top of an obstacle though. The opportunity to charge off of an obstacle just came up over the weekend. I do agree that the RAI answer is no. 

Charging off of terrain is just one more open question to this thread's summary:

On 12/27/2016 at 6:31 PM, AdamJHilton said:

Well, I think we've raised more questions in this thread than we've answered. Things we're answered:

  • Most people seem to agree that the entirety of a model's base must fit onto terrain in order for a model to be placed on it.
  • A model on terrain can't be pushed.

By my approximation, that still leaves:

  • Does terrain have to be 'flat' to place a model on top of it?
  • Can a 6"/8" MOV model charge 7" 'onto' terrain as to rules only prohibit charging 'over' it?
  • How do you position a knocked down model down via parting blow if it's only partially on terrain? Least disturbance?
  • Are models allowed to overlap on terrain? (Say one model is on top of a table and the other has part of its base under the same table.)

 

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Charging "off" an obstruction is charging "over" one.  In this case, "over" = "off" because you're "moving through" the obstacle.

Rulebook Pg 48: "Models may never Advance over an Obstruction during a Sprint or Charge."  If you started "on" the obstruction, moving "off" of it requires you to "Advance over an Obstruction", thus you cannot doing it if you're sprinting or charging.

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Yup, that rules snippet was quoted above when the question was first brought up. I think I agree with you, but no one else has been willing to commit one way or another for a month now. 

I guess you could also add a scenario where you charge across an obstacle. Say from one side of a large crate to another. 

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I'm guessing (pure speculation) that no one has committed probably because it's pretty clear (to me anyways)?  Anyway, it would be good to have the Lawyers finally clarify all the questions in this thread.  

 

Beyond the summary you posted, I also have my question about 2D vs 3D obstructions.  Until that is clarified, I've already been using 2D terrain for obstructions and 3D for grounds/barriers just to not have to debate whether my model can "stand on the obstruction" or not. :)

 

"

I would add that we would like clarification on the "placing models physically onto the obstruction" when the terrain is 2D vs 3D, especially when some of the less well funded tournaments we scrounge up terrain people bring, some of which are 2D and some which are 3D.  Creates a different environment when you play on a pitch where models can be easily placed onto terrain because everything is 2D whereas depending on the 3D terrain, you might not even be able to ever be placed onto an obstruction (thus can't shield against pushes or Puppet Master).  Seems too "luck of the draw" for terrain rules.  

"

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